[QUOTE=Conscript;45450556]You should, at the very least, not hate Russians for the past history of its aristocracy and other ruling elites. That is nothing but chauvinism.
Also, you sure liked them when the Turks were at your door.[/QUOTE]
They weren't at our door. Romania was already independent from an administrative point of view nor did we have any Ottoman troops in here, the Ottomans didn't have shit on us. Hell, our king was german, think he gave a fuck about the Ottomans?
Oh btw, Russia asked us for help first since they couldn't handle Pleven, so the king decided, hell why not, might as well become officially independent.
And I would stop hating them, but guess what I see. Putin taking over the country and the brainwashed russians drinking all that propaganda up like the nice little sheep they are. History keeps repeating in that country.
[QUOTE=ionuttzu;45450579]
And I would stop hating them, but guess what I see. Putin taking over the country and the brainwashed russians drinking all that propaganda up like the nice little sheep they are. History keeps repeating in that country.[/QUOTE]
Your kind of thinking is going to plunge (eastern) Europe into a new era of nationalist conflict and shatter the peaceful 'end of history' by radicalizing international politics.
The post-soviet sphere is fragile and has its own national questions, as a place that tried to transcend them with the soviet identity and as a place that had rough transition to capitalism. It's important we solve those questions without degenerating back into nationalism, revanchism, and other things that defined us 100 years ago.
What the OP and you advocate will not do that. It will only further antagonize pro-russian east slavs of the former USSR and inflame your own anger.
[QUOTE=Conscript;45450647]Your kind of thinking is going to plunge (eastern) Europe into a new era of nationalist conflict and shatter the peaceful 'end of history' by radicalizing international politics.
The post-soviet sphere is fragile and has its own national questions, as a place that tried to transcend them with the soviet identity and as a place that had rough transition to capitalism. It's important we solve those questions without degenerating back into nationalism, revanchism, and other things that defined us 100 years ago.
What the OP and you advocate will not do that. It will only further antagonize pro-russian east slavs of the former USSR and inflame your own anger.[/QUOTE]
As long as Russia keeps being a huge dick and starting all kinds of shit, I'll be "nationalistic" as much as I damn want to. End of story
[QUOTE=ionuttzu;45450530]I know it's how geopolitics works, and it makes sense since Crimea is a very important place from a military point of view.
Doesn't mean it's a reason to make Russia or Putin innocent.[/QUOTE]
It's not really a question of "innocence".
Ukraine has now decided to play for the other team, it cannot demand that Russia accept that. Just a few months ago they discovered that the US State Department had tried to launch a "secret twitter" in Cuba to try and encourage the people there to overthrow the Castro government, that's the kind of relationship Ukraine now has to look forward to with Russia.
The Russians will never fully accept a hostile state right on their border, much as the United States has never accepted a hostile state off of it's Southern coast.
[QUOTE=ionuttzu;45450685]As long as Russia keeps being a huge dick and starting all kinds of shit, I'll be "nationalistic" as much as I damn want to. End of story[/QUOTE]
This is why I don't believe nationalists want peace. What you are buying into is self-perpetuating hate and conflict. Russia isn't 'starting shit', it's not innocent but it's doing something any nation in its shoes regarding Ukraine would. A Ukraine ruled by Galician nazis and in NATO is unthinkable to them.
NATO is an alliance. We are all supposed to support each other. Europe expects the US to foot the majority of the bill while simultaneously badmouthing us and whining about our overreach.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;45450810]NATO is an alliance. We are all supposed to support each other. Europe expects the US to foot the majority of the bill while simultaneously badmouthing us and whining about our overreach.[/QUOTE]
Maybe the discussion should be whether US should just cut down a bit or not. Does NATO really need more money?
[QUOTE=Conscript;45450764]A Ukraine ruled by Galician nazis and in NATO is unthinkable to them.[/QUOTE]
That's great because Ukraine is neither in NATO nor is it ruled by Galician nazis
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;45451047]That's great because Ukraine is neither in NATO nor is it ruled by Galician nazis[/QUOTE]
Maidan has definitely been used to advance Ukrainian nationalist goals, and after Yanukovich's overthrow the nationalist western part of Ukraine has basically assumed exclusive power. These people along with prominent politicians like Tymoshenko and Yuschenko have called for NATO extend a membership action plan and [url=http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=27291]Anders Fogh Rasmussen has already called for one for Georgia[/url]. NATO still, officially, says it's not off the table and Ukraine is already taking steps to the West through the EU association agreement.
The Russians being concerned about a Western military presence isn't exactly out of this world. It's part of the reason they wanted Crimea.
[QUOTE=Conscript;45451190]Maidan has definitely been used to advance Ukrainian nationalist goals, and after Yanukovich's overthrow the nationalist western part of Ukraine has basically assumed exclusive power. These people along with prominent politicians like Tymoshenko and Yuschenko have called for NATO extend a membership action plan and [url=http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=27291]Anders Fogh Rasmussen has already called for one for Georgia[/url]. NATO still, officially, says it's not off the table and Ukraine is already taking steps to the West through the EU association agreement.
The Russians being concerned about a Western military presence isn't exactly out of this world. It's part of the reason they wanted Crimea.[/QUOTE]
Doesn't make it any less wrong. Ukraine is independent and can join whatever the hell it wants, and it doesn't justify invading it and sponsoring terrorism
[QUOTE=Conscript;45450647]Your kind of thinking is going to plunge (eastern) Europe into a new era of nationalist conflict and shatter the peaceful 'end of history' by radicalizing international politics.
The post-soviet sphere is fragile and has its own national questions, as a place that tried to transcend them with the soviet identity and as a place that had rough transition to capitalism. It's important we solve those questions without degenerating back into nationalism, revanchism, and other things that defined us 100 years ago.
What the OP and you advocate will not do that. It will only further antagonize pro-russian east slavs of the former USSR and inflame your own anger.[/QUOTE]
You're an American, you know that right?
and the french are still selling that helicopter carrier to the russians :v:
[url]http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140415/DEFREG01/304150037/NATO-Treads-Carefully-French-Deal-Russia[/url]
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;45451006]Maybe the discussion should be whether US should just cut down a bit or not. Does NATO really need more money?[/QUOTE]
If EU Military examples since the 1990s is what we should expect.
Yes. Yes they do need more money. If they chip in more, we can reduce our budget.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;45451235]Doesn't make it any less wrong. Ukraine is independent and can join whatever the hell it wants, and it doesn't justify invading it and sponsoring terrorism[/QUOTE]
Speak for yourself, you're from Lviv. You know as well as I do Ukraine is far from so homogeneous, and your 'independence' is arguably the oppression of half of Ukraine and that of all 'Muscovites'.
Which very much justifies separatism as a matter of self-determination from this fragile, bankrupt state as it turns hostile and refuses to federalize and make Russian a state language. 'Independent' Ukraine will not have the nationalism of the west and submission of the Russophone East and South, Novorossiya. Not as long as Russia and Russians exist anyway.
[QUOTE=Conscript;45451385]Speak for yourself, you're from Lviv. You know as well as I do Ukraine is far from so homogeneous, and your 'independence' is arguably the oppression of half of Ukraine and that of all 'Muscovites'.
Which very much justifies separatism as a matter of self-determination from this fragile, bankrupt state as it turns hostile and refuses to federalize and make Russian a state language. 'Independent' Ukraine will not have the nationalism of the west and submission of the Russophone East and South, Novorossiya.[/QUOTE]
Holy christ, I can't believe what I'm reading.
[QUOTE=Conscript;45451385]Speak for yourself, you're from Lviv. You know as well as I do Ukraine is far from so homogeneous,[/QUOTE]
Are you really lecturing a Ukrainian on what it's like to live in the Ukraine?
[QUOTE=Conscript;45451385]Speak for yourself, you're from Lviv. You know as well as I do Ukraine is far from so homogeneous, and your 'independence' is arguably the oppression of half of Ukraine and that of all 'Muscovites'.
Which very much justifies separatism as a matter of self-determination from this fragile, bankrupt state as it turns hostile and refuses to federalize and make Russian a state language. 'Independent' Ukraine will not have the nationalism of the west and submission of the Russophone East and South, Novorossiya. Not as long as Russia and Russians exist anyway.[/QUOTE]
how can you argue it's not homogenous when it's his stance, but when it's your stance you say that most of the ukranian people are pro russian
you're a hypocrite
Conscript is like the RAYHALO of Russia
Russia didn do nuffin' wrong
[QUOTE=Thlis;45451460]Are you really lecturing a Ukrainian on what it's like to live in the Ukraine?[/QUOTE]
Are you really making an appeal to authority?
Also, you only only know where I reside lol.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;45451468]how can you argue it's not homogenous when it's his stance, but when it's your stance you say that most of the ukranian people are pro russian
you're a hypocrite[/QUOTE]
I never said pro-russians were the majority. I've always said Ukraine is divided.
I would like to, again, point out that the man who grinds against Putin's Pootin has an American Flag under his Avatar.
[QUOTE=Conscript;45451477]Are you really making an appeal to authority?
Also, you only only know where I reside lol.
I never said pro-russians were the majority. I've always said Ukraine is divided.[/QUOTE]
but not evenly enough, you've made it clear your side is larger by at least some portion.
[QUOTE=Conscript;45450293]Additionally, there is a significant ethnic Russian demographic in Ukraine.[/QUOTE]
so what
[editline]20th July 2014[/editline]
there is a significant ethnic swedish population in minnesota so i guess that gives sweden the right to invade
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;45452423]so what
[editline]20th July 2014[/editline]
there is a significant ethnic swedish population in minnesota so i guess that gives sweden the right to invade[/QUOTE]
And to add to that, as a Chicagoan, We have a fucking district called "Ukrainian Village".
Not to mention how many fucking Polish people there are :v:
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;45452423]so what
[editline]20th July 2014[/editline]
there is a significant ethnic swedish population in minnesota so i guess that gives sweden the right to invade[/QUOTE]
Und Wisconsin gehört zu Deutschland.
[QUOTE=Psychokitten;45452555]Und Wisconsin gehört zu Deutschland.[/QUOTE]
Stay away from Chicago mate :v: I see your beady eyes on it.
Ethnic and historic connections are the absolute worst reasons to create a nation/annex territory. It's a tired and true recipie for disaster. At least with examples like Scotland, there are some vague economic reasons for seceding.
[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;45449521]I'm scared of russia so i wouldn't mind some better defense budgget.[/QUOTE]
Don't worry, they have to go through Finland before anything happens to you guys.
And I can assure you that our modern and true, Simo Häyhäs-kind young men, will hold back Russia for as long as deemed necessary.
Seriously though, what would actually happen if a war ever broke out between us is that, first Russia would bomb Helsinki to shit from miles away, and good luck mobilizing your army of modern Simo Häyhäs when that happens.. They'd be all hiding in cellars, probably. I know I would.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;45452423]so what
[editline]20th July 2014[/editline]
there is a significant ethnic swedish population in minnesota so i guess that gives sweden the right to invade[/QUOTE]
1. America is a settler state, not one founded on any nationality like it is in europe nor is its lands integral to any European nation
2. The area known as Novorossiya & the Donbass is historically part of Russia and largely de-populated before they arrived.
3. This area was attached to Ukraine's SSR as part of Korenization and an example of how the USSR 'transcended' national issues, then linked to historically Polish & anti-Soviet west Ukraine after WW2
4. Once the USSR collapsed, modern Ukraine came into existence not as the peoples' struggle towards self-determination, but basically a revolution from the top-down.
5. Nationalist west Ukraine injects militant anti-rus politics and deepens the divide, half of Ukraine, particularly its pro-soviet side, is never convinced in 20 years of independence that Ukraine's national aspirations take into account their's. It is, in fact, at odds with their own thanks to west Ukraine.
6. Crises provoked by this divide awakens national feelings in Ukraine's pro-Russians and makes them wary of Ukrainian fascism and overt examples of it, such as with Bandera's 'Hero of Ukraine' status and immediate repeal of the 2012 language law when the Rada had the chance.
Between Ukraine's very heterogeneous population, soviet-era borders, and ailing economy it has the recipe for a failed state and is very vulnerable to outside influence.
With Maidan, outside influence has taken this divide and has used it as a pre-text for a new confrontation between the West and Russia. It has not tried at all to solve Ukraine's national issues, instead prefers Ukrainian 'unity' because it gets the political loyalty of Galicia and the riches of the Donbass. As FP epitomizes, most westerners just think they should just 'go back' to Russia or accept the political will of 'real Ukrainians', because they're only there because 'real Ukrainians' starved in 1933 or something else lulzworthy and from the cold war.
As you can see, this goes far beyond just having an ethnic population in some random area and therefore having claim to it.
[QUOTE=Conscript;45455230]1. America is a settler state, not one founded on any nationality like it is in europe nor is its lands integral to any European nation
2. The area known as Novorossiya & the Donbass is historically part of Russia and largely de-populated before they arrived.
3. This area was attached to Ukraine's SSR as part of Korenization and an example of how the USSR 'transcended' national issues, then linked to historically Polish & anti-Soviet west Ukraine after WW2
4. Once the USSR collapsed, modern Ukraine came into existence not as the peoples' struggle towards self-determination, but basically a revolution from the top-down.
5. Nationalist west Ukraine injects militant anti-rus politics and deepens the divide, half of Ukraine, particularly its pro-soviet side, is never convinced in 20 years of independence that Ukraine's national aspirations take into account their's. It is, in fact, at odds with their own thanks to west Ukraine.
6. Crises provoked by this divide awakens national feelings in Ukraine's pro-Russians and makes them wary of Ukrainian fascism and overt examples of it, such as with Bandera's 'Hero of Ukraine' status and immediate repeal of the 2012 language law when the Rada had the chance.
Between Ukraine's very heterogeneous population, soviet-era borders, and ailing economy it has the recipe for a failed state and is very vulnerable to outside influence.
With Maidan, outside influence has taken this divide and has used it as a pre-text for a new confrontation between the West and Russia.
As you can see, this goes far beyond just having an ethnic population in some random area and therefore having claim to it.[/QUOTE]
The events going on in Ukraine are exactly the same as what happened in Chechnya in the 90's. Was Russia a failed state? Get your head out of your arse please
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;45455248]The events going on in Ukraine are exactly the same as what happened in Chechnya in the 90's. Was Russia a failed state? Get your head out of your arse please[/QUOTE]
Well Russia did default, people were working and not being paid, huge corruption, lots of organised crime, drug problems were rife I would say Russia was a failed state. They did recover though.
With Ukraine taking billions of dollars of debt I'm not sure they will recover so easily though, Russia has huge fossil fuel reserves and resources, Ukraine doesn't to my knowledge. Especially since I doubt they'll get into the EU mega easily and have turned their back on the Eurasian Union.
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