[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;45455278]Well Russia did default, people were working and not being paid, huge corruption, lots of organised crime, drug problems were rife I would say Russia was a failed state. They did recover though.
With Ukraine taking billions of dollars of debt I'm not sure they will recover so easily though, Russia has huge fossil fuel reserves and resources, Ukraine doesn't to my knowledge. Especially since I doubt they'll get into the EU mega easily and have turned their back on the Eurasian Union.[/QUOTE]
There are more criteria for a failed state than a default. All of the country should collapse on itself, this didn't happen in Russia and isn't happening in Ukraine
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;45455248]The events going on in Ukraine are exactly the same as what happened in Chechnya in the 90's. Was Russia a failed state? Get your head out of your arse please[/QUOTE]
It could've been, yea. Chechnya was basically about deterring non-east slavic peoples within the federation from rising up and possibly creating an environment for its disintegration.
I support its independence btw, since Russia being a capitalist nation-state rather than a communist union founded on the 'Soviet' identity will obviously not treat the Chechens the same way as they had it when they were in a soviet-era autonomous oblast.
You could very much say the same about Ukraine and its Russians. Soviet-era 'friendship of nations' is dead, and the nations that replaced it have their own national aspirations, however with soviet-era borders. Both Chechens and Ukraine's Russians and pro-Russians suffer from this and it needs to be addressed.
[QUOTE=ionuttzu;45447739]Why?
Asking members of NATO to spend at least 2% of GDP on the military is not much, it's a fucking requirement of being a MEMBER of NATO. But it seems countries take the alliance defending them in case something happens for granted, and think they don't need a proper army anymore.[/QUOTE]
All NATO seems to be in Europe is an excuse to cut the military budget to pitiful extremes because they know the Big Bad Bald Eagle will do all the fighting for them.
News flash; we can't keep being world police. It is ruining this nation and all it has done is make us more enemies. The other nations of the world need to start pulling their weight, [I]especially[/I] Europe.
Besides, if Europe beefs up its collective defense budgets, maybe we can shrink ours and put it into important things like healthcare and education. You know, [I]the same exact thing Europe has been doing for years.[/I]
Personally I think that a centralized group that governs commerce, trade and human rights would be extremely beneficial to Europe. The US is a system I'd compare my ideal to and it's only had one major conflict within itself since its inception. Whereas Europe has has two of the worst wars in history in the past century alone. Something like a less garbage EU would be cool
[QUOTE=Tacosheller;45455676]Personally I think that a centralized group that governs commerce, trade and human rights would be extremely beneficial to Europe. The US is a system I'd compare my ideal to and it's only had one major conflict within itself since its inception. Whereas Europe has has two of the worst wars in history in the past century alone. Something like a less garbage EU would be cool[/QUOTE]
But for free trade you need to make sure all countries have similar working conditions and pay, otherwise it kills local business. For such a thing you need to have homogenous/or similar tax, welfare and human rights. This would involve takings lots of "liberties" away from the member countries and making more laws for them, which in turn leads to people getting upset.
It's a lovely idea but for it to truly work people need to make sacrifices and not be afraid of laws "being made in brussels with no english say" One issue is we are used to democracy as having your say but as the groups gets bigger your say gets less important so people feel their "democracy" is being threatened.
what the fuck does the UK need an active military or defense budget for in the first place? who are we actually defending ourselves from? france? norway? iceland?
[QUOTE=Bobie;45455754]what the fuck does the UK need an active military or defense budget for in the first place? who are we actually defending ourselves from? france? norway? iceland?[/QUOTE]
We like to invade places and wave our dong around, it makes us relevant and helps british companies get huge rebuilding contracts.
Also in the defence of the MOD it does put off the Argies from trying to take the Falklands and the Spaniards from bullying Gibraltar. Last time when a Spanish ship shot at Brits are Gibraltar we sent a war ship and they shut up.
+ soldiers double as great police when a company providing event security fail to deliver!
[QUOTE=Bobie;45455754]what the fuck does the UK need an active military or defense budget for in the first place? who are we actually defending ourselves from? france? norway? iceland?[/QUOTE]
Russian backfire bombers, terrorists who attack assets belonging to the British around the world, emergency deployment to hotspots around the world
It's not that easy
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;45455777]We like to invade places and wave our dong around, it makes us relevant and helps british companies get huge rebuilding contracts.
Also in the defence of the MOD it does put off the Argies from trying to take the Falklands and the Spaniards from bullying Gibraltar. Last time when a Spanish ship shot at Brits are Gibraltar we sent a war ship and they shut up.[/QUOTE]
i can totally get behind the idea of defending the falklands and other UK island territories, but the cost of defending those territories in this day and age is minimal in comparison to operating a military budget that is 2% of our GDP, the majority of britain's defense budget goes toward stuff that has nothing to do with the defense of our territory in the first place.
[QUOTE=firstblood;45448561]Never thought of it that way, I have a new found respect for america now.[/QUOTE]
Except that's not the case. The US military budget balloons as much, because the US piles insane amounts of money on their own force projection capabilities and hardware.
US allies can get into the zone they have been requested to go into on their own fairly often, what they generally lack is overseas power projection (much smaller navies as an example) and there's also different spending on RnD with the US piling again quite a lot of money on being just ahead everyone else.
A good example is the f22 versus the european typhoon.
In terms of army size, the US isn't exceptionally oversized in terms of how many soldiers it has. It's huge in terms of GDP expenditure (fourth or fifth I think), but this has more to do with the fact the US is actually quite aggressive with it's military.
We've had this disscussion before in SH and essentially the main difference is, that the US is essentially imperialistic, whereas most european nations ceased to be imperialistic after during the cold war.
And those that retain overseas holdings can still protect them when push comes to show to an extent. Retaking the Falklands is a great example.
Other than that - consider a lot of European countries - many of them are actually landlocked and will never really have a navy. Others were rarely historically naval powers.
[QUOTE=Bobie;45455807]i can totally get behind the idea of defending the falklands and other UK island territories, but the cost of defending those territories in this day and age is minimal in comparison to operating a military budget that is 2% of our GDP, the majority of britain's defense budget goes toward stuff that has nothing to do with the [b]defense of our territory[/b] in the first place.[/QUOTE]
Thats where the problem lies.
If its defence of British interests then it starts to become relevant.
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;45455840]Thats where the problem lies.
If its defence of British interests then it starts to become relevant.[/QUOTE]
whose interests? the british interests? the majority of people in this country never wanted us to go to war in iraq and wanted us to pull out of the middle east a long time ago. and i'd dread to think what interests our current nuclear arsenal is protecting
[QUOTE=Bobie;45455881]whose interests? the british interests? the majority of people in this country never wanted us to go to war in iraq and wanted us to pull out of the middle east a long time ago. and i'd dread to think what interests our current nuclear arsenal is protecting[/QUOTE]
Your nuclear arsenal is so you can strike back if you get nuked. Which once again falls under the concept of "let the Americans do it"
[QUOTE=Bobie;45455881]whose interests? the british interests? the majority of people in this country never wanted us to go to war in iraq and wanted us to pull out of the middle east a long time ago. and i'd dread to think what interests our current nuclear arsenal is protecting[/QUOTE]
British Companies made a killing from Iraq and Afghanistan, literally billions of dollars. Assume they pay tax and/or have friends in the government then it becomes British interest.
[QUOTE=Zambies!;45455892]Your nuclear arsenal is so you can strike back if you get nuked. Which once again falls under the concept of "let the Americans do it"[/QUOTE]
probably should let the americans do it TBH
[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;45455911]British Companies made a killing from Iraq and Afghanistan, literally billions of dollars. Assume they pay tax and/or have friends in the government then it becomes British interest.[/QUOTE]
i just wish the government would hand out tax-funded contracts to me too
[QUOTE=Bobie;45456006]probably should let the americans do it TBH
i just wish the government would hand out tax-funded contracts to me too[/QUOTE]
Go to Iraq, disobay their laws, shoot civilians and police, burn slightly broken SUVs, serve out of date food, provided unclean drinking water to the armed forces and you too could get a tax-funded contract.
Conscript Russia has no right to invade/annex regardless of the amount of ethnic Russians in Ukraine.
This is literally Sudentenland MKII except the people actually don't want to be part of Russia.
You guys need to mobilize a military before the Russian bear goes full Red Dawn on you guys.
[QUOTE=seano12;45456664]You guys need to mobilize a military before the Russian bear goes full Red Dawn on you guys.[/QUOTE]
Except they won't.
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45456760]Except they won't.[/QUOTE]
If they believed they could get away with it, they would.
Right now, the US is mostly what stops them, and even with the pitiful contribution to the military that most European countries provide, together Europe could still probably kick Russia's ass.
The problem is that a lot of countries are not only spending very little, but even that money is being hacked away for other shit. If that trend continues, Europe could be in a weak spot, since the current trend in the US is a more isolated foreign policy. We are transitioning to an age where Europe will be on its own militarily, and Europe will need to defend itself.
-snip-
[QUOTE=BananaFoam;45456906]If they believed they could get away with it, they would.
Right now, the US is mostly what stops them, and even with the pitiful contribution to the military that most European countries provide, together Europe could still probably kick Russia's ass.
The problem is that a lot of countries are not only spending very little, but even that money is being hacked away for other shit. If that trend continues, Europe could be in a weak spot, since the current trend in the US is a more isolated foreign policy. We are transitioning to an age where Europe will be on its own militarily, and Europe will need to defend itself.[/QUOTE]
I concur that sooner or later the United States will no longer be the world police, I feel that Europe must do everything to improve our relationship with Russia before that happens.
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45456945]I concur that sooner or later the United States will no longer be the world police, I feel that Europe must do everything to improve our relationship with Russia before that happens.[/QUOTE]
The only good relation one can have with Russia is either when it's stronger or equally powerful as Russia is, or when it's their slave.
In it's current divided state Europe is neither more powerful or as powerful as Russia is, from a military and influence point of view.
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45456945]I concur that sooner or later the United States will no longer be the world police, I feel that Europe must do everything to improve our relationship with Russia before that happens.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't bat an eye if the US discontinued supporting western European NATO armies. Eastern European countries like Poland and the Baltic States are doing everything they can to train, upgrade and bolster their armies. It's time that countries like the UK, Germany and France got their economic rug pulled out from under them.
A full withdrawal of US forces from Europe would open their eyes to the situation.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;45457128]I wouldn't bat an eye if the US discontinued supporting western European NATO armies. Eastern European countries like Poland and the Baltic States are doing everything they can to train, upgrade and bolster their armies. It's time that countries like the UK, Germany and France got their economic rug pulled out from under them.
A full withdrawal of US forces from Europe would open their eyes to the situation.[/QUOTE]
Are you saying Poland would invade Western countries if the USA pulled out?
Maybe it's time for you to stop playing Call of Duty.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;45457153]Are you saying Poland would invade Western countries if the USA pulled out?
Maybe it's time for you to stop playing Call of Duty.[/QUOTE]
Are you just bad at reading or what?
I have no idea what you're saying because you make no sense.
[QUOTE=ionuttzu;45457109]The only good relation one can have with Russia is either when it's stronger or equally powerful as Russia is, or when it's their slave.
In it's current divided state Europe is neither more powerful or as powerful as Russia is, from a military and influence point of view.[/QUOTE]
I disagree, we can have a relatively stable relationship with Russia. We just need to stop expecting them to remain stuck within a reduced post-cold war state, and actually listen to them next time they voice reservations about our activist foreign policy adventurism.
Seriously, if we had just listened to the Russians the middle-east would probably be a far more stable place than it is now.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;45457181]I have no idea what you're saying because you make no sense.[/QUOTE]
Just bad at reading then. Suggest getting glasses, might help
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;45456760]Except they won't.[/QUOTE]
It's possible. If the U.S. were to somehow collapse, or if something were to happen that crippled the U.S.'s ability to police the world for a long time, then Russia could get away with a lot if they felt that Europe was weak.
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