Multiple marines, police officers wounded and killed in attack in Chattanooga, TN
219 replies, posted
[QUOTE=GunFox;48231321]Which is what ultimately causes the problem.
We can't, as a culture, do that. We try and fail repeatedly because nobody really understands what that means. We don't recognize that "differences" extends deeper than we believe.
As an example: We have trouble dealing with arabic countries because the concept of "face" fucks us up. In western culture we value personal integrity, but acknowledge that you can make mistakes. You can fuck up, recognize it, and walk away with someone holding a higher opinion of you than when you started.
This works differently for many Arabic cultures. Admitting fault is NEVER acceptable. Showing guilt or hesitating is a massive sign of weakness. Apologizing for mistakes or shortcomings and working to improve them are signs of weakness.
This is a well understood concept. It isn't some Arabic hating bullshit, the CIA recognized it as a problem long ago because their case officers couldn't cooperate with assets.
[url]https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-csi/vol8no3/html/v08i3a05p_0001.htm[/url]
We think of differences like foods, languages, dress, and all the things we can see, but other cultures view the world in fundamentally different ways. They can be doing the "right" thing and we can be doing the "right" thing and they are complete opposites. Cooperation is incredibly difficult in such cases.[/QUOTE]
Because we come at it at the worst angle and to be honest, we've tried homogenizing everything already when it comes to crops and other things and they've blown up in our faces, repeatedly. I know different cultures clash and its difficult but that's something that education can help us face and appreciate without having to resort to basically trying to make everyone follow the same thing.
Because that won't happen either, forcing a singular global culture will not solve our issues because its impossible.
[QUOTE]bdulazeez was not in any U.S. databases of suspected terrorists, a U.S. official said.
[/QUOTE]
I don't think this is a good time for gun regulation talk. This man doesn't seem to have any redflags as far as his ability to own a gun goes. I doubt regulation could have stopped this one and talking about getting rid of guns in America is just silly.
[QUOTE=Jordax;48231621]Dunno if that is the average American view on culture, but European countries generally value their traditions and cultures. I can't see most European countries ditching their ancestry and culture in lieu for one single global culture.[/QUOTE]
I don't know. I'm seeing plenty of stuff coming out of Sweden that says otherwise.
[editline]17th July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Swilly;48231711]I know different cultures clash and its difficult but that's something that education can help us face and appreciate without having to resort to basically trying to make everyone follow the same thing..[/QUOTE]
And some cultures are just better than others. A culture that treats women as equals is better than a sex segregated society, etc.
[QUOTE=GunFox;48231174]Ever since I moved to a region with a stronger native american population, I realized that cultural preservation is terrible.
You have a group of people here who so desperately hold on to their cultural heritage that they let it drag them down into crushing poverty. They live in reservations that basically amount to slums and don't even have constitutional protections while living there. Many reservations ban free speech for tribal members. This desire to preserve it is passed on to their children. The children ultimately don't interact with the population at large enough to develop the necessary social skills to ever succeed.
It is sad. I watch it breed hate. Both sides harbor a strong resentment for the other for absolutely no reason that couldn't be easily fixed.
All for what? I understand keeping traditions for yourself, but children? They won't miss them. Culture has no inherent value. It almost exclusively serves to continue to promote our differences. We can't move towards being a global society without first abandoning the lines that separate us.[/QUOTE]
This is one of the worst examples of "cultural preservation" you could possibly cite. We did to the Native Americans [I]everything[/I] that should be avoided at all costs: we took everything from them, pushed them from our lands, and damn near wiped them from the face of the Earth. We broke them. When we finally acknowledged that genocide, they were a scattered people with nothing left, and even then their reward for all the hardships they endured was simple isolation. They were given land and told that we would leave them alone. Native Americans aren't an example of cultural celebration, they're an example of cultural extermination.
I have some first-hand experience with life on an a reservation. I lived on a Sioux reserve in South Dakota for a spell. You're right, their cultural identity is [I]very[/I] important to them. They hold onto it fiercely, and they do so because it's all they have. I spent my time there with my mom, my half-brother, five stepbrothers, and the head of the household-- nine people crammed into a beat-to-hell two bedroom home. Barely a thousand square feet. Most families on the reservation lived that way. Without the generosity of the tribe, the sense of community and kinship and heritage that they shared, they would have nothing at all. I went on a ride with the head of the household once in his fucked old pickup truck, and the dude was so proud to show me all of "his" land as we drove through the countryside. I was young, I didn't get it. I asked him why he lived in such a little house if he had so much land, and he said, "it's not just mine, it's all of ours. We might be poor, but this makes us rich."
Look, I'm not trying to browbeat you here, but just please don't call what happened to the Native Americans an example of preserving cultures. That culture was gutted. It's nothing but shreds and scraps now, and what remains is so insular and isolated that there's not much hope of it ever recovering. The study of Native Americans is more Archaeology than Anthropology, and that's friggen tragic. Who [I]knows[/I] how different things might have been today if our past had gone a different route? If our people had come together instead of trying to tear each other part? If anything, Native Americans are the [I]single greatest[/I] example of why we [B]need[/B] to make greater strides towards cultural integration and exchange.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48230550]We may eat kebabs, but much of the Western world still damns the refugees, immigrants, faith, and cultural identity of Muslims as a generalized entity. There is still a huge rift between our cultures based largely on fear and distrust. I am not opining that selling Nasheeds in record stores and having a Halal section in our grociers is the end-all of cultural acceptance and the final word on integration-- you just asked me for a few examples of what Muslim culture had to offer and I gave them. Your current argument is dramatically simplifying the position by focusing only on the materialistic aspects, and dismissing the core concept of what it is we're talking about here: an integration of our cultures and values such that the alternative is just as familiar as your own while both still retain their most defining aspects. It works to the benefit of both cultures.[/QUOTE]
You say that he is simplifying things, yet you answered his question with nothing but vague concepts and catch-alls that don't actually say anything about what "Islamic culture" is. Here's a straightforward question: what are these "ideas" that Islamic culture contains? Another question: how is "faith and spirituality" something that could possibly benefit the US or the rest of the world at large?
[QUOTE=GunFox;48231174]Ever since I moved to a region with a stronger native american population, I realized that cultural preservation is terrible.
You have a group of people here who so desperately hold on to their cultural heritage that they let it drag them down into crushing poverty. They live in reservations that basically amount to slums and don't even have constitutional protections while living there. Many reservations ban free speech for tribal members. This desire to preserve it is passed on to their children. The children ultimately don't interact with the population at large enough to develop the necessary social skills to ever succeed.
It is sad. I watch it breed hate. Both sides harbor a strong resentment for the other for absolutely no reason that couldn't be easily fixed.
All for what? I understand keeping traditions for yourself, but children? They won't miss them. Culture has no inherent value. It almost exclusively serves to continue to promote our differences. We can't move towards being a global society without first abandoning the lines that separate us.[/QUOTE]
there is a difference between preservation and isolation, and not all kinds of preservation are the same
when multiple cultures interface, it's important that they demonstrate convergence and intermixing. rather than simply assimilating in full or retracting towards their own roots, there needs to be an exchange.
muslims in america are actually a great example. muslims who move here are usually different from those that immigrate to european countries, because those who cross the atlantic ocean usually do so because they want to come [I]here[/I] specifically, not just get away from the wretched conditions in their home country.
hence, while many muslim communities in the united states have their own enclaves, they also interact and share with the larger communities surrounding, especially in terms of the youth.
[QUOTE=Explosions;48231989]You say that he is simplifying things, yet you answered his question with nothing but vague concepts and catch-alls that don't actually say anything about what "Islamic culture" is. Here's a straightforward question: what are these "ideas" that Islamic culture contains? Another question: how is "faith and spirituality" something that could possibly benefit the US or the rest of the world at large?[/QUOTE]
I know that you are no fan of religion in general, and especially in the Islamic Faith, which makes it feel like wasted breath to have this conversation with you, but there are thousands of years of evolving culture to explore here, and I think that you discounting that is irresponsible and terribly narrowminded. Please, correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but is the argument you're attempting to make really that Islamic and Middle Eastern culture has nothing of value to offer the world and that you think we'd be better off without it?
You're criticizing me for using "vague concepts" like art, architecture, ceremony, music, literature, and history to describe Arabic culture, but how the hell else do you define "culture?" Culture is all of these things, and these particular cultures date back thousands of years-- essentially throughout all of human history. Where should I start? Where would you start?
Architecture?
[t]http://www.escapenormal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Screen-shot-2013-03-16-at-2.08.53-PM.png[/t]
Art?
[t]http://www.postonline.co.uk/IMG/815/87815/islamic-architecture-art-tiled-mosaic-dome-arabic-script.jpg[/t]
Clothing?
[t]http://hijabstyletrends.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/hijab-wear-styles-for-girls-4.jpg[/t]
Traditions and ceremonies?
[t]http://beautynstyles.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Pakistani-Mehndi-10.jpg[/t]
How do I summarize such a complicated concept as "culture" in a way that will satisfy your doubt that it actually exists in the Middle East too?
I think people are using culture as a synonym for values and ideas.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;48232503]I think people are using culture as a synonym for values and ideas.[/QUOTE]
Because culture is ultimately all of the values, ideals, ideas and thoughts of a group.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48232428]I know that you are no fan of religion in general, and especially in the Islamic Faith, which makes it feel like wasted breath to have this conversation with you, but there are thousands of years of evolving culture to explore here, and I think that you discounting that is irresponsible and terribly narrowminded. Please, correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but is the argument you're attempting to make really that Islamic and Middle Eastern culture has nothing of value to offer the world and that you think we'd be better off without it?
You're criticizing me for using "vague concepts" like art, architecture, ceremony, music, literature, and history to describe Arabic culture, but how the hell else do you define "culture?" Culture is all of these things, and these particular cultures date back thousands of years-- essentially throughout all of human history. Where should I start? Where would you start?
Architecture?
[t]http://www.escapenormal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Screen-shot-2013-03-16-at-2.08.53-PM.png[/t]
Art?
[t]http://www.postonline.co.uk/IMG/815/87815/islamic-architecture-art-tiled-mosaic-dome-arabic-script.jpg[/t]
Clothing?
[t]http://hijabstyletrends.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/hijab-wear-styles-for-girls-4.jpg[/t]
Traditions and ceremonies?
[t]http://beautynstyles.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Pakistani-Mehndi-10.jpg[/t]
How do I summarize such a complicated concept as "culture" in a way that will satisfy your doubt that it actually exists in the Middle East too?[/QUOTE]
I have no idea what Islam is so I can't say whether I'm a fan of it or not. Regardless, I never said that culture doesn't exist in the Middle East (is Islamic culture limited to the Middle East?) or that Islamic culture (whatever that is, I don't know what it is and I'm asking questions to find out) has nothing of value in it. I never said these things. I asked two specific questions about the "ideas" you mentioned that are present in Islamic culture ([url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1476378&p=48230226&viewfull=1#post48230226]in this post[/url]) and why "faith and spirituality" (also from that post) is something to be admired.
When I said your post was vague I meant that it didn't answer the specific question Pantz Master was asking. Obviously you have to use broad language to discuss topics such as culture, I wasn't criticizing you for that.
[QUOTE=Explosions;48232609]I have no idea what Islam is so I can't say whether I'm a fan of it or not. Regardless, I never said that culture doesn't exist in the Middle East (is Islamic culture limited to the Middle East?) or that Islamic culture (whatever that is, I don't know what it is and I'm asking questions to find out) has nothing of value in it. I never said these things. I asked two specific questions about the "ideas" you mentioned that are present in Islamic culture ([url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1476378&p=48230226&viewfull=1#post48230226]in this post[/url]) and why "faith and spirituality" (also from that post) is something to be admired.
When I said your post was vague I meant that it didn't answer the specific question Pantz Master was asking. Obviously you have to use broad language to discuss topics such as culture, I wasn't criticizing you for that.[/QUOTE]
Okay, I see. Sorry for misunderstanding you, then! I have seen you argue pretty vehemently about this before, and drew some unfair conclusions about your intentions.
I'm sorry that I can't really summarize this more clearly for you. I'm trying to, but I'm not sure what more I can say to define it. Pantz asked me to describe what Islamic Culture has to offer, and I'm honestly stumped as to how to get more thorough in my reply than I have been, short of referring him to entire books on the subject. It's like asking what American culture has to offer. I don't know... cowboys, or something? How do you summarize an entire cultural identity in a few short words?
And you're right, Islamic Culture is not necessarily the same thing as Middle Eastern culture. However, they are closely intertwined. Religion is a huge factor in a region's cultural identity, after all.
The wider point I'm trying to make here isn't even limited to this specific culture, however. In my frustration with trying to put a massive and dynamic concept into a few short sentences, I'm straying the point. I am trying to speak about about culture as a whole, to say that it is cultures which are very different that ultimately stand the most to gain by coming together. By the same token, it is also cultures which are very different that stand the most to lose by widening the rift between them.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48230226]The same as every other culture. Art, music, history, tradition, food, architecture, faith and spirituality, style, ideas, etc, etc. It's one of the world's oldest and most complex cultural and ethnic groups, and despite its troubled history it has a lot of beauty. You might as well argue that nobody has any cultural worth at all if you think that Islamic culture has nothing to offer the world.[/QUOTE]
You can hardly attribute such things to a religion, especially one as destructive as islam. Turkish culture exists because of the Byzantine empire before it was wiped out by the islamic horde and their jihad, much like the Persian empire\Iran, this "religion" absorbed people through subjugation and thus their culture, with forced conversions to islam.
[editline]17th July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=GunFox;48231321]Which is what ultimately causes the problem.
We can't, as a culture, do that. We try and fail repeatedly because nobody really understands what that means. We don't recognize that "differences" extends deeper than we believe.
As an example: We have trouble dealing with arabic countries because the concept of "face" fucks us up. In western culture we value personal integrity, but acknowledge that you can make mistakes. You can fuck up, recognize it, and walk away with someone holding a higher opinion of you than when you started.
This works differently for many Arabic cultures. Admitting fault is NEVER acceptable. Showing guilt or hesitating is a massive sign of weakness. Apologizing for mistakes or shortcomings and working to improve them are signs of weakness.
This is a well understood concept. It isn't some Arabic hating bullshit, the CIA recognized it as a problem long ago because their case officers couldn't cooperate with assets.
[url]https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/kent-csi/vol8no3/html/v08i3a05p_0001.htm[/url]
We think of differences like foods, languages, dress, and all the things we can see, but other cultures view the world in fundamentally different ways. They can be doing the "right" thing and we can be doing the "right" thing and they are complete opposites. Cooperation is incredibly difficult in such cases.[/QUOTE]
Adding on to what you stated, Democracy is a foreign element in Islam, before western colonization, there was only Sharia law, gods law, to understand Islam, you must understand that it's both a method of living like other religions but at the same time a political system. To muslims, Democracy is man made law which can never be acceptable as there is only gods law, aka the Sharia law, to go against the Sharia law, is to go against god.
If you ask any non-western muslims this is the answer they will give you. Although Turkey does not have Sharia law, Sharia law support in turkey is huge and growing, it's supposed to be the most progressive form of islam, being secular however it couldn't be further from the truth, especially with the recent aggressive statement from their president that if the Kurdish try to form a Kurdish state Turkey will not allow it to exist.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48232768]I am trying to speak about about culture as a whole, to say that it is cultures which are very different that ultimately stand the most to gain by coming together. By the same token, it is also cultures which are very different that stand the most to lose by widening the rift between them.[/QUOTE]
Do you have any real life examples of this? One might argue that western society has the political and social advancements that it has today specifically because of it being western culture, and that if one looks at countries with large influences of both western and middle eastern culture, like Turkey, you see quite a few fundamental issues stemming from the middle easter/Islamic side.
I'm not so much actually making this argument because of my lack of knowledge on this complex subject. I'm more challenging the assumptions because I can easily see the opposite one holding value as well.
Who knows if late, but apparently the guy lived in my town and worked at the local nuclear power plant.
Huh
[QUOTE=sgman91;48233004]Do you have any real life examples of this? One might argue that western society has the political and social advancements that it has today specifically because of it being western culture, and that if one looks at countries with large influences of both western and middle eastern culture, like Turkey, you see quite a few fundamental issues stemming from the middle easter/Islamic side.
I'm not so much actually making this argument because of my lack of knowledge on this complex subject. I'm more challenging the assumptions because I can easily see the opposite one holding value as well.[/QUOTE]
Off the top of my head, what of Western and Eastern culture? Our relationship with Japan was as bad as bad gets. We found their society to be outdated, their traditions ridiculous, their battle tactics barbaric, we sent Japanese Americans and Immigrants to internment camps, we wiped two of their cities off the map. "Slap a Jap, fight the savage!" Japanese culture was every bit the demon to Americans in the 40's that Muslim culture is today. Yet, in the wake of the war, we became more than simple trade allies. Our cultures became intertwined, and both grew as a result of that. We fed each others' societal, economic, and cultural growth in major ways. Now, we can hardly imagine one culture without the other's influence.
On the other side of the same coin, China and Japan are still bitter rivals. Following the war, these two cultures remained hostile towards each other for a number of reasons. Japan's treatment of the Chinese during the war did nothing to help the situation, and neither did China's insular authoritarian government. Japan is a monster to the people of China, just as it was once a monster to us. But we found unity, and our cultures grew together, and they didn't.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48235161]Off the top of my head, what of Western and Eastern culture? Our relationship with Japan was as bad as bad gets. We found their society to be outdated, their traditions ridiculous, their battle tactics barbaric, we sent Japanese Americans and Immigrants to internment camps, we wiped two of their cities off the map. "Slap a Jap, fight the savage!" Japanese culture was every bit the demon to Americans in the 40's that Muslim culture is today. Yet, in the wake of the war, we became more than simple trade allies. Our cultures became intertwined, and both grew as a result of that. We fed each others' societal, economic, and cultural growth in major ways. Now, we can hardly imagine one culture without the other's influence.[/QUOTE]
The Japan/US situation after WWII seems a whole lot more of Japan integrating western culture into their culture than the opposite. It would be hard to even differentiate Japanese culture from the western influences. They've adopted a western political system, many western social norms, etc., but I don't see any evidence of the opposite.
Within the last 10-20 years the US has started to gain a real interest in some Japanese things like Manga, Anime, music, etc., but I would hardly say that Japanese culture plays any real role in US culture. It's been a very one sided exchange of culture. We may share in some material parts of their culture (food, music, etc.), but they've adopted a lot of our ideas and values, the much more important part of culture.
[QUOTE]On the other side of the same coin, China and Japan are still bitter rivals. Following the war, these two cultures remained hostile towards each other for a number of reasons. Japan's treatment of the Chinese during the war did nothing to help the situation, and neither did China's insular authoritarian government. Japan is a monster to the people of China, just as it was once a monster to us. But we found unity, and our cultures grew together, and they didn't.[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying that all cultural integration is inherently bad, just that it shouldn't be assumed that adopting parts of a culture will improve society. I might have misread your comment, but you seemed to say that it's always good for cultures to blend together.
[editline]17th July 2015[/editline]
Let me clarify a little bit: I'm really only interested in the ideas and values within a culture. Material things are nice, but in the end, I don't think they really matter that much. A society might be improved by middle eastern architecture, but it's not necessary to create a good society. On the other hand, I honestly don't know what middle eastern culture has to offer western culture in terms of ideas and values, but there do seem to be quite a few things that would be negative to meld into western culture.
This is just heart wrenching...
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/nvXPNvc.jpg[/IMG]
[url]http://www.13wham.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/four-marines-killed-tenn-identified-24738.shtml?wap=0&[/url]
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;48235161]Off the top of my head, what of Western and Eastern culture? Our relationship with Japan was as bad as bad gets. We found their society to be outdated, their traditions ridiculous, their battle tactics barbaric, we sent Japanese Americans and Immigrants to internment camps, we wiped two of their cities off the map. "Slap a Jap, fight the savage!" Japanese culture was every bit the demon to Americans in the 40's that Muslim culture is today. Yet, in the wake of the war, we became more than simple trade allies. Our cultures became intertwined, and both grew as a result of that. We fed each others' societal, economic, and cultural growth in major ways. Now, we can hardly imagine one culture without the other's influence.
On the other side of the same coin, China and Japan are still bitter rivals. Following the war, these two cultures remained hostile towards each other for a number of reasons. Japan's treatment of the Chinese during the war did nothing to help the situation, and neither did China's insular authoritarian government. Japan is a monster to the people of China, just as it was once a monster to us. But we found unity, and our cultures grew together, and they didn't.[/QUOTE]
Japan and Germany became close allies of the US because we destroyed them culturally.
Japan centered around the notion that they were superior and that their imperial ruler was basically a god. When we annihilated them so totally, it broke them culturally. We then further cemented our victory by influencing their entire society by taking part in the rebuilding process.
Germany is even more fucked up. We took over their entire education system. We took apart their entire culture and reformed them into one more in line with western ideals by controlling the next generation. Doesn't it seem weird how, despite fighting a ridiculously bloody and hate woven conflict with Germany, we now get along quite well? Extremely well in fact. Visit Western Berlin, it looks almost exactly like an American city.
Cultural integration ensure long term cooperation. Do you see the Germans missing the reichs? The Japanese missing totalitarian imperial rule? How are they doing from a political, economic, and social standpoint? They still have their heritage. It still exists along with all the superficial relics and even many of the practices of their culture, but the underlying mindset is now one that can cooperate with the world at large.
I know, it doesn't feel right, I really do. It feels like we should celebrate all of our differences, and to a degree that is absolutely true, but we also need to recognize that our differences can, in many instances, fundamentally prevent us from cooperating as a whole. Now we can, should we choose, simply elect to stay away from one another, but that feels like stagnation to me. I want to work together as a species, even if it does cost us some of our cultural diversity.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48235229]Let me clarify a little bit: I'm really only interested in the ideas and values within a culture. Material things are nice, but in the end, I don't think they really matter that much. A society might be improved by middle eastern architecture, but it's not necessary to create a good society. On the other hand, I honestly don't know what middle eastern culture has to offer western culture in terms of ideas and values, but there do seem to be quite a few things that would be negative to meld into western culture.[/QUOTE]
Precisely. This is what I was getting at with my original post. In the end, nobody really cares about architecture, food, etc. We care about ideas. And I want BDA to tell us what good ideas, if any, that Muslim culture can bring to Western culture. Cause I'm not seeing them.
Muslim culture is a good culture only to the extent to which it has already been westernized. That's why Muslims in America are (in my opinion) much more advanced culturally than those in Europe. European Muslims tend to resist integration of western thought into their own culture, while in America Muslims are much more receptive to change.
[QUOTE=Leon;48223966]because restrictive gun laws dont work[/QUOTE]
Y'know, there MIGHT be something wrong when a country's news stations that isn't in or related to the US displays more gun violence related crimes from the US in a few months, than said country's own gun violence crimes in 2 years...
I dunno, these anti gun laws here seem to be working rather well....
[QUOTE=kweh;48239231]Y'know, there MIGHT be something wrong when a country's news stations that isn't in or related to the US displays more gun violence related crimes from the US in a few months, than said country's own gun violence crimes in 2 years...
I dunno, these anti gun laws here seem to be working rather well....[/QUOTE]
How many different ethnicities, religions and social castes exist in Portugal? What percentage of your population is in poverty?
Came to this thread expecting a few posts about the Marines and Sailor that passed away, except I got a 3 page gun control discussion and how people writing their dissertations on Japanese culture.
[editline]18th July 2015[/editline]
RIP to my 5 brothers that senselessly lost their lives.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;48239151]Precisely. This is what I was getting at with my original post. In the end, nobody really cares about architecture, food, etc. We care about ideas. And I want BDA to tell us what good ideas, if any, that Muslim culture can bring to Western culture. Cause I'm not seeing them.
Muslim culture is a good culture only to the extent to which it has already been westernized. That's why Muslims in America are (in my opinion) much more advanced culturally than those in Europe. European Muslims tend to resist integration of western thought into their own culture, while in America Muslims are much more receptive to change.[/QUOTE]
ever heard of algebra? al-jabr. meaning the "reunion of different parts". first synthesized into something similar to what we know today by Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī. often ignored is the fact that the islamic world was the enclave of scholarship following the fall of rome, and carried the torch in mathematics, physics, astronomy, and medicine.
meanwhile, the western idea of nationalism was responsible for carving the middle east along borders that didn't make sense in the 1920s. it resulted in the insulation of kurds, sunni arabs, and shia arabs in a single state, which allowed the nation to become a powder-keg of sectarianism. that nation is what we now know as iraq.
similarly, the rule of reza pahlavi in iran, which we maintained with a coup in 1953, saw an [I]over[/I]injection of secularism and western values in iran, at a pace which galvanized fundamentalists and saw an uprising which supplanted the government with a shia theocracy.
if you ask any historian worth their salt, they'll bring you to the same conclusions that i've been asserting repeatedly: it was the rapid incursion of the west, not eastern ideals themselves, that doomed much of the islamic world to backwardness. before those incursions, particularly the ones in the 21st century, the islamic world was on track to become just as egalitarian and secular as us in the long term.
there's also an underlying assumption that secularism and egalitarianism are characteristically western ideals, when various eastern societies, stretching from the mongols to the islamic empire, demonstrated far more egalitarian and secular structures than existed in europe in the same time frame. this is also nothing to say of the social structures of some of the hundreds of tribes that existed in africa and the americas.
[QUOTE=joes33431;48240384]ever heard of algebra? al-jabr. meaning the "reunion of different parts". first synthesized into something similar to what we know today by Muhammad ibn Mūsā al-Khwārizmī. often ignored is the fact that the islamic world was the enclave of scholarship following the fall of rome, and carried the torch in mathematics, physics, astronomy, and medicine.
meanwhile, the western idea of nationalism was responsible for carving the middle east along borders that didn't make sense in the 1920s. it resulted in the insulation of kurds, sunni arabs, and shia arabs in a single state, which allowed the nation to become a powder-keg of sectarianism. that nation is what we now know as iraq.
similarly, the rule of reza pahlavi in iran, which we maintained with a coup in 1953, saw an [I]over[/I]injection of secularism and western values in iran, at a pace which galvanized fundamentalists and saw an uprising which supplanted the government with a shia theocracy.
if you ask any historian worth their salt, they'll bring you to the same conclusions that i've been asserting repeatedly: it was the rapid incursion of the west, not eastern ideals themselves, that doomed much of the islamic world to backwardness. before those incursions, particularly the ones in the 21st century, the islamic world was on track to become just as egalitarian and secular as us in the long term.[/quote]
What is the point of saying all this? I agree 100% that the Islamic world had brought us good things in the past. I also agree that western countries have done damage to the Islamic world through colonization and by drawing arbitrary borders. But what does that have to do with trying to bring Islamic culture to the west today? Just because the west might be somewhat responsible for throwing the Islamic world into darkness, doesn't mean we should then turn around and accept that darkness for ourselves. What are you even trying to suggest here?
[quote]there's also an underlying assumption that secularism and egalitarianism are characteristically western ideals, when various eastern societies, stretching from the mongols to the islamic empire, demonstrated far more egalitarian and secular structures than existed in europe in the same time frame. this is also nothing to say of the social structures of some of the hundreds of tribes that existed in africa and the americas.[/QUOTE]
I disagree that the Islamic world has ever been a bastion for secularism. This is a politically correct myth. However I don't even need to argue this point for you to be wrong. Answer me this question: What does the Islamic world have to bring to the table in terms of good ideas today?
[QUOTE=joes33431;48240384]
meanwhile, the western idea of nationalism was responsible for carving the middle east along borders that didn't make sense in the 1920s.[/QUOTE]
Applying nationalism to this region would solve most of its problems. Sunni nation, Shia nation, Kurd nation, etc.
Give people the homeland they desire and they won't fight for it. Give people a nation where they can be among people like them and they won't fight over differences. It was a disregard for nationalism that our current situation.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;48240521]What is the point of saying all this? I agree 100% that the Islamic world had brought us good things in the past. I also agree that western countries have done damage to the Islamic world through colonization and by drawing arbitrary borders. But what does that have to do with trying to bring Islamic culture to the west today? Just because the west might be somewhat responsible for throwing the Islamic world into darkness, doesn't mean we should then turn around and accept that darkness for ourselves. What are you even trying to suggest here?
I disagree that the Islamic world has ever been a bastion for secularism. This is a politically correct myth. However I don't even need to argue this point for you to be wrong. Answer me this question: What does the Islamic world have to bring to the table in terms of good ideas today?[/QUOTE]
i guess my point is less defending the political and social practices of the islamic world today and more challenging the assumption that the western footprint was, is, and will be the reason for modernization in the region and elsewhere.
i don't know enough about the islamic world in specific to say for sure what it has to offer right now. however, i think that it's disingenuous to say that it has nothing to offer at all, especially if that viewpoint is based primarily on anecdotal media coverage of the region and the people who belong to it.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;48240558]Applying nationalism to this region would solve most of its problems. Sunni nation, Shia nation, Kurd nation, etc.
Give people the homeland they desire and they won't fight for it. Give people a nation where they can be among people like them and they won't fight over differences. It was a disregard for nationalism that our current situation.[/QUOTE]
this comes with the assumption that no infighting will occur between these new nations over land and resources. carving out a three-state solution in iraq might very well land us in the same situation that we're in with palestine: each side has its own vision for the region, and the confounding variable of vested interests makes it impossible for a credible third party to negotiate effectively. in other words, if negotiations aren't stalled by disagreements and interest-peddling by both regional and international powers, then it may just well precipitate into small-scale international warfare as opposed to the civil warfare we're seeing right now.
while i don't think it's incredibly likely that the iraqi government can recover in its current state, i know that there are steps that it can take to improve its legitimacy. otherwise, it might have to come down to regional powers to assume responsibility and manage the respective territories to which each sect belongs.
[QUOTE=joes33431;48240951]i don't know enough about the islamic world in specific to say for sure what it has to offer right now. however, i think that it's disingenuous to say that it has nothing to offer at all, especially if that viewpoint is based primarily on anecdotal media coverage of the region and the people who belong to it.[/QUOTE]
I think it comes down to what assumptions are correct. Previously (unless I'm mistaken) BDA claimed that separate cultures would always benefit from coming together. In his words:
[QUOTE] that it is cultures which are very different that ultimately stand the most to gain by coming together.[/QUOTE]
I don't see why we should assume that they would have a lot to gain. It seems you could only hold that view if you saw all cultures as equally valuable.
It seems to me that the burden of proof would lie on the person making the positive claim, that western culture would benefit by "coming together" with middle eastern culture. They would need to show that middle eastern culture has more good than bad within it, and how those values would benefit western culture.
[QUOTE=sgman91;48240988]I think it comes down to what assumptions are correct. Previously (unless I'm mistaken) BDA claimed that separate cultures would always benefit from coming together. In his words:
I don't see why we should assume that they would have a lot to gain. It seems you could only hold that view if you saw all cultures as equally valuable.
It seems to me that the burden of proof would lie on the person making the positive claim, that western culture would benefit by "coming together" with middle eastern culture. They would need to show that middle eastern culture has more good than bad within it, and how those values would benefit western culture.[/QUOTE]
you'd have to ask BDA himself, since my claim was that cultural exchange, not necessarily full-on intermixing, is in general beneficial, because it's more rational to assume that there must be [I]some[/I] positive elements in any particular culture than it is to try and assert that there are none.
obviously there are positive and negative practices to every culture -- the point being to synergise, to take in the best elements wherever possible while rejecting the negative. hence, i'm not going to defend any person of any religion if, when going to any country, they engage in harmful practices like FGM. but i also think that it's important to recognize the context that the practices come from, that the conditions causing these practices to arise are fixable at their roots, and the fact that things are by and large improving in many places.
for example, while we usually don't associate saudi arabia with the arab spring, it had its own spate of protests arguing for political and human rights reform. that political wing has the potential to grow in strength and power in the country, especially since king abdullah's passing.
[QUOTE=joes33431;48241064]you'd have to ask BDA himself, since my claim was that cultural exchange, not necessarily full-on intermixing, is in general beneficial, because it's more rational to assume that there must be [I]some[/I] positive elements in any particular culture than it is to try and assert that there are none.[/QUOTE]
I guess I'll have to ask a third time then. What specific ideas does Islamic culture bring to the table that, if mixed with western culture, would be beneficial? This thread has gone on for 6 pages and I have yet to get an answer.
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48236996]Fifth victim died...
[url]http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/07/18/sailor-in-chattanooga-shooting-has-died-death-toll-now-5/[/url][/QUOTE]
Fucking terrible, rest in peace
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