Cosby: Trayvon Martin case about guns, not race - Polidicks

Yeah well I think it's more of a case of zib zob zoobity zoop zap zoo

[QUOTE=Ericson666;35587300]You realize Zimmerman isnt white, right?[/QUOTE] You do realize not only white people can be racist, right? Not saying that Zimmerman is though. I swear these Trayvon Martin threads should be a bannable offense at this point, because nobody knows what really happened and Facepunch can't seem to host a reasonable discussion about this case.

"Trayvon Martin Case about Guns, not Race" Thanks for your input Mr. random celebrity TV star, but the Trayvon Martin case is actually about [i]Trayvon Martin.[/i] Crazy, I know! [sp]though I guess technically at this point it's about Zimmerman[/sp]

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;35585967]Because you agree with one and not the other? Telling people to "stop capitalizing on tragedy" is a tactic the NRA have used since day one to silence the debate about gun control and is especially fucking two-faced considering the NRA's past comments about the case. Maybe if we did use tragedies as a launching point for discussion they would happen less often.[/QUOTE] I never said anything about that. All I said is that they were not comparable.

[QUOTE=Ericson666;35587300]You realize Zimmerman isnt white, right?[/QUOTE] You realize that your post has literally no consequence on my argument whatsoever, right? [editline]15th April 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Zanfall;35587495]You do realize not only white people can be racist, right? Not saying that Zimmerman is though. I swear these Trayvon Martin threads should be a bannable offense at this point, because nobody knows what really happened and Facepunch can't seem to host a reasonable discussion about this case.[/QUOTE] That's beside the point anyway. [b]WHETHER OR NOT ZIMMERMAN WAS RACIST ISN'T THE ISSUE WITH THIS CASE[/b]

[QUOTE=cecilbdemodded;35585314]So Cosby is going to use the ruining of a man's life and death of a teenager to push his anti-gun agenda? Classy.[/QUOTE] grade a idiot

[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;35586264]His only son was shot and killed by a white man. It also sounds like he wants to change the fundamental attitudes towards guns in America rather than using legislation for gun control.[/QUOTE] The problem is that all the facts are not out in this case and already Cosby is blaming it on the fact a guy was carrying a gun(ie 'why did he have a gun' and 'who taught him how to behave with it'). That's why I say he's using it to push his agenda, his comments are not relevant to the facts of this case but are relevant if you're interested in restricting gun use.

[QUOTE=cecilbdemodded;35587739]The problem is that all the facts are not out in this case and already Cosby is blaming it on the fact a guy was carrying a gun(ie 'why did he have a gun' and 'who taught him how to behave with it'). That's why I say he's using it to push his agenda, his comments are not relevant to the facts of this case but are relevant if you're interested in restricting gun use.[/QUOTE] uhh well actually it seems pretty relevant because if zimmerman didn't have a gun chances are martin wouldn't be dead

[QUOTE=Kopimi;35587772]uhh well actually it seems pretty relevant because if zimmerman didn't have a gun chances are martin wouldn't be dead[/QUOTE] yeah but zimmerman would be dead or injured

[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;35587826]yeah but zimmerman would be dead or injured[/QUOTE] if he didn't disobey the 911 caller and let the teen walk home...

[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;35587826]yeah but zimmerman would be dead or injured[/QUOTE] lol. poor Zimmerman; beaten to death with a can of arizona iced tea by a teenager he accosted.

[QUOTE=The Baconator;35587906]if he didn't disobey the 911 caller and let the teen walk home...[/QUOTE] it's not like 911 operators have any authority. there's no florida law stating you can't pursue a suspicious party

I am mad at the media for not just stating what we know. Every time I go on any news channel, there is a different story. On Fox, he was totally right to kill the kid and that it was the kids fault for having a hoodie while being black. On most other channels, Zimmerman is automatically guilty no matter what, etc.

[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;35587942]it's not like 911 operators have any authority. there's no florida law stating you can't pursue a suspicious party[/QUOTE] maybe there should be? maybe that's one of the things everyone is so upset about? if Zimmerman didn't have the mentality where his response to seeing a teenager walking down a public sidewalk was to confront him with a gun, nothing would have happened. there would have been no confrontation and no one would be dead or injured. That's what Cosby is talking about. His argument is really reasonable even though I do think race had something to do with the police's handling of the case. [editline]15th April 2012[/editline] People keep saying "there's no law saying you cant pursue someone" and I keep trying to intimate to them "yeah, and that's wicked fucked and one of the many, many things wrong here" and it doesn't seem to ever get through.

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;35587938]lol. poor Zimmerman; beaten to death with a can of arizona iced tea by a teenager he accosted.[/QUOTE] [url]http://news.yahoo.com/george-zimmerman-video-shows-injury-back-head-161816389--abc-news-topstories.html[/url] guess this is totally meaningless [editline]15th April 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=SigmaLambda;35587953]maybe there should be? maybe that's one of the things everyone is so upset about? if Zimmerman didn't have the mentality where his response to seeing a teenager walking down a public sidewalk was to confront him with a gun, nothing would have happened. there would have been no confrontation and no one would be dead or injured. That's what Cosby is talking about. His argument is really reasonable even though I do think race had something to do with the police's handling of the case. [editline]15th April 2012[/editline] People keep saying "there's no law saying you cant pursue someone" and I keep trying to intimate to them "yeah, and that's wicked fucked and one of the many, many things wrong here" and it doesn't seem to ever get through.[/QUOTE] did you even see any of the eyewitness reports because they all say that the gun came out after the conflict started and martin was beating the shit out of zimmerman it's not like he just walked up, called him a nigger, and shot him or anything, there's a massive amount of the story you're completely ignoring

[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;35587826]yeah but zimmerman would be dead or injured[/QUOTE] as far as i'm concerned zimmerman was the aggressor in this case, he was following him around and without his pseudo-policeman mindset the entire conflict would have been avoided. i highly doubt martin would have beaten him to death especially given a circumstance in which he was unarmed. if he had listened to the 911 operator and left martin alone the entire issue would have never happened. [editline]16th April 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=ButtsexV3;35587942]it's not like 911 operators have any authority. there's no florida law stating you can't pursue a suspicious party[/QUOTE] who gives a shit if it isn't illegal, that's not the point anyone is making we're saying that zimmerman initiated a conflict by stalking an unarmed teenager who was well within his rights to be in the neighborhood

[QUOTE=jimhowl33t;35585165]Except a gun ban in the US would do absolutely jack shit. Thinking criminals have acquired and are detaining and carrying their weapons LEGALLY is downright silly, any attempts at bans only made things worse for law-abiding citizens (see the DC handgun ban, or how crime-filled places like Detroit & co already have stricter gun laws than other, nicer states where everyone and their dog can walk out the gun store with an arsenal yet crime is near-to-nonexistant).[/QUOTE] What we need to do is crack down on under the table dealers. I remember reading that most illegal weapons are obtained from legitimate gun shops that do back door business when nobodies looking. It's not guns we need to regulate, it's the people who sell them.

[QUOTE=ButtsexV3;35588014][url]http://news.yahoo.com/george-zimmerman-video-shows-injury-back-head-161816389--abc-news-topstories.html[/url] guess this is totally meaningless[/QUOTE] yeah it fucking is. I don't buy that an injury on the back of Zimmerman's head meant that Martin had just gone hulk and was about to beat Zimmerman to death with his bare fists. [b]BUT THAT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT[/b] [QUOTE=ButtsexV3;35588014] did you even see any of the eyewitness reports because they all say that the gun came out after the conflict started and martin was beating the shit out of zimmerman it's not like he just walked up, called him a nigger, and shot him or anything, there's a massive amount of the story you're completely ignoring[/QUOTE] you keep not understanding me and you probably should not do that. If Zimmerman's mentality was different: if Zimmerman's response to seeing a teenager walking down a public sidewalk was to [b][i]not[/i][/b] grab a gun and confront the teenager, then nothing would have happened, and an innocent person would not be dead. That is what I am saying. That's what Bill Cosby is saying. Maybe if the laws were changed to be a little harsher against apparent acts of vigilantism then we wouldn't have things like this happening; but as it stands, the Stand Your Ground law creates a consequence-free sphere of murder surrounding anyone who wants to create a conflict and then resolve that conflict they just created with deadly force under in the name of "self-defense". That is just one of the many ways that this state of affairs is fucked and I really hope that you read that argument a couple times over so you don't suffer from that "not getting it" problem that a lot of people seem to have with regards to this case.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;35588187]What we need to do is crack down on under the table dealers. I remember reading that most illegal weapons are obtained from legitimate gun shops that do back door business when nobodies looking. It's not guns we need to regulate, it's the people who sell them.[/QUOTE] I would like to see that report if you can find it. Not that I disagree, I just recall the amount of paperwork necessary on the part of any gunstore to sell a firearm/take possession of a firearm. All of their orders from factories would be logged and tracked by the ATF so the only possible source of under the table dealings for most would likely be used firearms. While there is a pretty significant market for used firearms, I'm not quite sure I buy that gun store owners, given the inherent profit associated with the business, would risk their business and liberty in that fashion. It just...doesn't sit right. It is unlikely that they would be issued a license to sell from the ATF if they had and serious previous convictions, and selling guns under the table is pretty high on the list of crimes. Criminals generally escalate, not start at gun running. Plus the ATF runs stings like we drink water. Again, I don't disagree, I'm just curious as to the nature of the report because something doesn't sit quite right about it.

literally all illegal guns were legal guns at some point in their history save for, like, pipe rifles that singaporean gangs make in basement workshops but I think that this argument is really tangential to the point of this thread. Cosby's argument isn't about legal guns vs. illegal guns, it's about the societal mentality that justifies Zimmerman's actions leading up the shooting. Whether or not Zimmerman was actually defending his life when he shot Martin doesn't matter, he was still being a gung-ho vigilante when he decided to try to stop Martin on his own even though the police were already involved and Martin couldn't have conceivably presented any sort of a threat that would justify Zimmerman stepping in before the police arrived.

[QUOTE=Zanfall;35587495] because nobody knows what really happened[/QUOTE] Zimmerman and Martin do, but one could be lying and the other one's dead. I have a reasonable guess. It's not knowledge, of course not, but it's actually constructed reasonably. Zimmerman was outside in his neighborhood, getting snacks, patrolling because he's neighborhood watch, whatever, when he sees this guy (Martin) off in the distance. Now Martin's not from this neighborhood so Zimmerman didn't recognize him. Zimmerman thought this guy looked suspicious (how so I can't say), so he calls 911 and starts watching the guy because he's neighborhood watch. Martin's sees this guy's watching him. He doesn't recognize him because he's not from around these parts. Now, Martin could have been up to something, and thought the guy was calling the cops on him, or he could have been perfectly fine and thought the guy was a rapist or something like that, but either way, according to the 911 call (THE UNEDITED ONE) he fucking books it. This gives Zimmerman reasonable suspicion that the guy's a crook and tails him (which likely makes Martin worried because now he KNOWS that this Hispanic guy's tailing him). The 911 operator notices Zimmerman's suddenly breathing harder and says "Wait are you following him? You don't have to do that." To which Zimmerman [b]slows down[/b], presumably to his SUV (though he could have been following at walking speed). The 911 call ends, and then we're in absolute darkness about the case except for the fact that Zimmerman shot Martin.

edit nvm

[QUOTE=The Baconator;35587906]if he didn't disobey the 911 caller and let the teen walk home...[/QUOTE] 911 dispatchers have no authority, at best it was a suggestion and he did nothing illegal by disobeying him.

[QUOTE=MBB;35588438]911 dispatchers have no authority, at best it was a suggestion and he did nothing illegal by disobeying him.[/QUOTE] HEY DUDE. we've been over this. everyone fucking knows that 911 operators have no authority. that's not the problem here.

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;35588453]HEY DUDE. we've been over this. everyone fucking knows that 911 operators have no authority. that's not the problem here.[/QUOTE] I've seen it been used as a justification for condemning Zimmerman before, I'm just trying to clear up some serious misinformation. Sorry if I'm late or whatever.

[QUOTE=lavacano;35588411]Zimmerman and Martin do, but one could be lying and the other one's dead. I have a reasonable guess. It's not knowledge, of course not, but it's actually constructed reasonably. Zimmerman was outside in his neighborhood, getting snacks, patrolling because he's neighborhood watch, whatever, when he sees this guy (Martin) off in the distance. Now Martin's not from this neighborhood so Zimmerman didn't recognize him. Zimmerman thought this guy looked suspicious (how so I can't say), so he calls 911 and starts watching the guy because he's neighborhood watch. Martin's sees this guy's watching him. He doesn't recognize him because he's not from around these parts. Now, Martin could have been up to something, and thought the guy was calling the cops on him, or he could have been perfectly fine and thought the guy was a rapist or something like that, but either way, according to the 911 call (THE UNEDITED ONE) he fucking books it. This gives Zimmerman reasonable suspicion that the guy's a crook and tails him (which likely makes Martin worried because now he KNOWS that this Hispanic guy's tailing him). The 911 operator notices Zimmerman's suddenly breathing harder and says "Wait are you following him? You don't have to do that." To which Zimmerman [b]slows down[/b], presumably to his SUV (though he could have been following at walking speed). The 911 call ends, and then we're in absolute darkness about the case except for the fact that Zimmerman shot Martin.[/QUOTE] Or Zimmerman approached Martin with a hand gun out in the open, Martin panicked because he thought this random white guy who has been following him was gonna mug and shoot him so attempts to knock the weapon out of Zimmerman's hand, resulting in Martin knocking Zimmerman to the ground (where Zimmerman supposedly hit his head on the concrete). With Martin still on top of Zimmerman, Zimmerman shoots Martin. I don't know about you, but if I was walking home and saw some guy following me with his hand in his pocket/holding a gun in plain sight walking up to me I wouldn't just sit there and let the guy shoot me. This could all have been a misunderstanding but the fault lies with Zimmerman if he did approach Martin with a weapon in his hand which set off a chain of events leading to Martin's death. In their minds they were trying to defend themselves from a threat, which Zimmerman created in the first place.

[QUOTE=MBB;35588484]I've seen it been used as a justification for condemning Zimmerman before, I'm just trying to clear up some serious misinformation. Sorry if I'm late or whatever.[/QUOTE] And it's a perfectly good justification for condemning Zimmerman because whether or not he was under any legal obligation to not follow Martin, he still shouldn't have followed Martin.

[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;35588521]And it's a perfectly good justification for condemning Zimmerman because whether or not he was under any legal obligation to not follow Martin, he still shouldn't have followed Martin.[/QUOTE] ...If he didn't do anything illegal, there's no basis to convict him of anything

[QUOTE=GunFox;35588291]I would like to see that report if you can find it. Not that I disagree, I just recall the amount of paperwork necessary on the part of any gunstore to sell a firearm/take possession of a firearm. All of their orders from factories would be logged and tracked by the ATF so the only possible source of under the table dealings for most would likely be used firearms. While there is a pretty significant market for used firearms, I'm not quite sure I buy that gun store owners, given the inherent profit associated with the business, would risk their business and liberty in that fashion. It just...doesn't sit right. It is unlikely that they would be issued a license to sell from the ATF if they had and serious previous convictions, and selling guns under the table is pretty high on the list of crimes. Criminals generally escalate, not start at gun running. Plus the ATF runs stings like we drink water. Again, I don't disagree, I'm just curious as to the nature of the report because something doesn't sit quite right about it.[/QUOTE] I don't have a source for it, I read it awhile ago. I'm probably wrong then.

[QUOTE=MBB;35588527]...If he didn't do anything illegal, there's no basis to convict him of anything[/QUOTE] Maybe there's a problem with that? The entire outrage about this case is that [i]the system itself[/i] is broken and it needs to be fixed. Of course Zimmerman didn't do anything illegal; that's what the problem is. The problem here is that no action he committed over the course of pursuing, confronting, and shooting an innocent, unarmed teenager was illegal. There should probably be some sort of law stopping you from doing that.