Blizzard is censoring a pose from Overwatch, citing player feedback - Polidicks

[QUOTE=IAmIchigo;50028756]But people feel it does detract from the game and some people feel it isn't out of place, this argument is going round in circles.[/QUOTE] And Blizzard agreed with the people who thought it was out of place. That's the end of it really. They have final say in these matters after all. It's not like the character is totally losing an animation, they are replacing it with something they have an idea for/ already have waiting. I mean, if you really want the animation back that much, start a petition or something? idk. Just make sure you call your actions censorship when Blizzard are "forced" to replace the animation due to a group of fans asking about it. Well, more than asking in this hypothetical. Demanding it. [editline]29th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50028801]What upset me personally about the response was that you have someone saying "this content is demeaning and disempowering and it reduces this character to a sex object" and instead of defending his team's work and offering their perspective on why it wasn't those things, he instead immediately caved and asked for forgiveness as though some crime had been committed. This is a personal note, but I think when someone says that the thing your team made is demeaning and objectifying, it's your responsibility as a leader to defend them in [I]some[/I] way. I might be a minority in that regard. I do agree that people are needlessly vitriolic when it comes to controversy.[/QUOTE] Is that really all that makes this an issue for you? Artists don't actually have to defend their work tooth and nail, you know that right? Many creators make things, and only after the fact, with some feedback or analysis realise that they can in fact do better. An artist not "standing up for themselves" isn't some crime against art. It's an artist looking at their own work critically. I honestly doubt Blizzard of all developers, renown for their ability to not give a fuck about fan demands, instantly caved in. [editline]edite[/editline] Like, I've written some really shoddy code for example, and even when given a chance to defend it, after having someone else actually look at the resulting program and ask me "y tho?" have I realised that my justifications for it actually aren't super strong and "becuz lol" is a total non-answer. Being able to reflect on things you've made is a core part of creation. You don't have to defend something, just being told "hey that's jacked the fuck up" might be enough to jog you out of your prideful moment and actually think of decent improvements.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;50028729] Why does that first explanation elicit such a "OMG FUC U BLI$$ARD" response anyway? They are making a product after all, pleasing as many as possible with as little work as possible is a mainstay of profit making. Changing something inconsequential to the gameplay, but that one or two people point out as being a bit out of place is an easy win for both their income and the players who actually gave a toss about it.[/QUOTE] Can you imagine how it would have been if Blizzard responded to every "offended" poster the same way? I could play offended too. All I have to do is go to their forums and get offended over the representation of people of my country in their game. After all, they said they didn't want anyone to feel misrepresented. Would it be fair if they changed Lúcio because I'm saying he offends me, even if other people say he's fine?

[QUOTE=hexpunK;50028813]And Blizzard agreed with the people who thought it was out of place. That's the end of it really. They have final say in these matters after all. It's not like the character is totally losing an animation, they are replacing it with something they have an idea for/ already have waiting. I mean, if you really want the animation back that much, start a petition or something? idk. Just make sure you call your actions censorship when Blizzard are "forced" to replace the animation due to a group of fans asking about it. Well, more than asking in this hypothetical. Demanding it.[/QUOTE] They agreed with one person, said that they apologized and then hours later said that "actually we had always been planning to change it", I honestly don't think we will see eye to eye since you think that people shouldn't care about any change that you consider small and I believe they should be able to complain when something is removed just because one person feels uncomfortable

[QUOTE=hexpunK;50028813]Is that really all that makes this an issue for you? Artists don't actually have to defend their work tooth and nail, you know that right? Many creators make things, and only after the fact, with some feedback or analysis realise that they can in fact do better. An artist not "standing up for themselves" isn't some crime against art. It's an artist looking at their own work critically. I honestly doubt Blizzard of all developers, renown for their ability to not give a fuck about fan demands, instantly caved in.[/QUOTE] There's an important difference to me between defending yourself and defending others. You have a right to affirm that your work is demeaning or harmful. I don't think you have the right to affirm that other people's work is. I think that's the responsibility of a leader. Maybe that's unreasonable. It's just how I view these things.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;50028838]Can you imagine how it would have been if Blizzard responded to every "offended" poster the same way? I could play offended too. All I have to do is go to their forums and get offended over the representation of people of my country in their game. After all, they said they didn't want anyone to feel misrepresented. Would it be fair if they changed Lúcio because I'm saying he offends me, even if other people say he's fine?[/QUOTE] Chances are the complaint was in agreement with their own opinion and they decided to use that as a good reason to change it. It's not like they will change everything that offends anyone. Just the things they agree with internally.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;50028838]Can you imagine how it would have been if Blizzard responded to every "offended" poster the same way? I could play offended too. All I have to do is go to their forums and get offended over the representation of people of my country in their game. After all, they said they didn't want anyone to feel misrepresented. Would it be fair if they changed Lúcio because I'm saying he offends me, even if other people say he's fine?[/QUOTE] Depends, do Blizzard agree that their representation in Lucio is a bit naff? Because they seemed to agree here. If you just threw your toys out of the pram over it when they didn't agree to "make" them change it, it'd be a problem. But I don't see any of that in this particular instance, just someone asking Blizz "what up" with the animation and Blizz responding with "actually we kinda agree! well, sorry if it was a problem we can fix that".

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50028801]Has anyone demanded an apology?[/QUOTE] I remember some people in the other thread specifically saying they wanted an apology. [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50028801]While I might be biased, it feels like most of the shitposting, mockery, and vitriol has been coming from the group that believes people shouldn't care.[/QUOTE] Oh really? Have you noticed how many people has attacked Blizzard and the original poster? Those belong in the group that either believe people shouldn't care or thinks this is a good change, and I can tell you for certain that they are by far being attacked the most, along with anyone who dare agree with them.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;50028813]Like, I've written some really shoddy code for example, and even when given a chance to defend it, after having someone else actually look at the resulting program and ask me "y tho?" have I realised that my justifications for it actually aren't super strong and "becuz lol" is a total non-answer. Being able to reflect on things you've made is a core part of creation. You don't have to defend something, just being told "hey that's jacked the fuck up" might be enough to jog you out of your prideful moment and actually think of decent improvements.[/QUOTE] What's funny is, I think creators ought to listen to criticism. I try to listen to criticism. I think being defensive stifles your development. I just think you have different responsibilities as a director. I think there is some obligation to defend your team's work, even if it's just explaining your rationale and why you made the choice being criticized.

[QUOTE=IAmIchigo;50028842]They agreed with one person, said that they apologized and then hours later said that "actually we had always been planning to change it", I honestly don't think we will see eye to eye since you think that people shouldn't care about any change that you consider small and I believe they should be able to complain when something is removed just because one person feels uncomfortable[/QUOTE] You can complain all you damn well please. But that doesn't mean you actually will get it changed. Or that your complaints are really worthwhile. Or that this is censorship. Nobody is actually stopping you from complaining about this change. We're just asking "why?", when even the developer agrees "we can actually do that better", why the hell is it so important to complain about the change?

[QUOTE=paul simon;50028862]I remember some people in the other thread specifically saying they wanted an apology. Oh really? Have you noticed how many people has attacked Blizzard and the original poster? Those belong in the group that either believe people shouldn't care or thinks this is a good change, and I can tell you for certain that they are by far being attacked the most.[/QUOTE] What exactly would you define as an 'attack'? I think we might define the word differently.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50028868]What's funny is, I think creators ought to listen to criticism. I try to listen to criticism. I think being defensive stifles your development. I just think you have different responsibilities as a director. I think there is some obligation to defend your team's work, even if it's just explaining your rationale and why you made the choice being criticized.[/QUOTE] Defending your teams work is a totally noble thing to try and do. And I honestly doubt that the response was written without discussion amongst the team as to what to do. It's quite a big thing to "promise" a player that you will change something without asking the team if they agree. The fact there is no defence or justification over their choice to do the whole butt thing really makes me think the team just don't give a fuck either way. I know that from seeing the designers at my workplace respond to critique, they don't tend to justify their work if nobody in the team was particularly fussed about replacing it. This has happened in the various work environments I've been in so far.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;50028874]You can complain all you damn well please. But that doesn't mean you actually will get it changed. Or that your complaints are really worthwhile. Or that this is censorship. Nobody is actually stopping you from complaining about this change. We're just asking "why?", when even the developer agrees "we can actually do that better", why the hell is it so important to complain about the change?[/QUOTE] Can you not see how much it looks like they're backpedalling? "It was our idea all along!" Of course now the creators won't engage anymore. There's 500 posts saying "I'm offended at X" in one way or another and now people are just really pissed that THEY aren't get any response to their feedback, joke or not.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;50028909]Can you not see how much it looks like they're backpedalling? "It was our idea all along!"[/QUOTE] It's not backpedaling if I agree with it.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;50028909]Can you not see how much it looks like they're backpedalling? "It was our idea all along!"[/QUOTE] This isn't uncommon. Cost-benefit analysis of stuff like this might mean "oh shit i have a cool idea" doesn't lead anywhere until they hear from a user or something like that, asking for something related to that idea. There's no point spending the money and time in doing something if nobody actually would have cared in the first place. Someone cared about buttes, so suddenly the idea has actual business value and can be implemented without the team wasting time for no real reason other than "its cool tho". [editline]edited[/editline] Like shit, to use experience from my workplace and the assload of people I've spoken to whilst I was studying. Many development teams in computing have cool ideas for their system being developed. But until someone actually works out that the idea is going to make money or improve relations, you sit on it. There are other things that you could be doing with estimated cost-benefit.

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;50028909]Can you not see how much it looks like they're backpedalling? "It was our idea all along!" Of course now the creators won't engage anymore. There's 500 posts saying "I'm offended at X" in one way or another and now people are just really pissed that THEY aren't get any response to their feedback, joke or not.[/QUOTE] Or they're just actually a team of normal individuals who don't put such importance on a single trivial character pose in a massive video game project.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;50028895]Defending your teams work is a totally noble thing to try and do. And I honestly doubt that the response was written without discussion amongst the team as to what to do. It's quite a big thing to "promise" a player that you will change something without asking the team if they agree. The fact there is no defence or justification over their choice to do the whole butt thing really makes me think the team just don't give a fuck either way. I know that from seeing the designers at my workplace respond to critique, they don't tend to justify their work if nobody in the team was particularly fussed about replacing it. This has happened in the various work environments I've been in so far.[/QUOTE] If the complaints were minor, then I would agree. I just think that calling something demeaning and objectifying is a serious accusation, even if the thing that's being accused of it is inconsequential. Again, I'm probably in the minority. I'm really protective when it comes to other people, possibly unreasonably so. I could see my mentality being entirely uncalled for in most situations. It's just really important to me.

If that character is sexualized, they should watch the female characters of League of Legends...

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50028876]What exactly would you define as an 'attack'? I think we might define the word differently.[/QUOTE] Generally ridiculing them for their actions / views on the matter. People seem to be under the impression that the original post was made by some Anita follower / SJW fanatic, while in reality the post was very humble. You know, suddenly people start talking about burkas and whatnot, as if this is some slippery slope thing, and I think that's overly aggressive and improper.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;50028874]You can complain all you damn well please. But that doesn't mean you actually will get it changed. Or that your complaints are really worthwhile. Or that this is censorship. Nobody is actually stopping you from complaining about this change. We're just asking "why?", when even the developer agrees "we can actually do that better", why the hell is it so important to complain about the change?[/QUOTE] Ok so lets go from the top A long post is made talking about a single persons dislike for a pose for tracer For 3 days the thread is filled with people disagreeing with the argument and stating that it totally is within character A blizzard mod drops in and apologises for the pose and states that they will change her pose and locks the thread This screams of them censoring their game because they don't want to offend people, funny enough many people don't like games being censored no matter how small the change is and feel that it leeds to big changes that cause a game to be ruined (*cough* fire emblem *cough*) People came to this thread to discuss this change BEFORE the statement was released and people complained that making a change to appease a 1 person is stupid and makes them lose trust that blizzard will defend the game as a whole The statement then is released which seems to contradict what was said previously and says that they had actually been planning the change all along so people shouldn't worry and then the thread is opened so people can argue about it again without filling up the beta discussion The current argument RIGHT NOW in this thread is over people like you saying that we shouldn't bother worrying over such a small change and that it isn't censorship it is something else because words = opinion + word algebra + feelings The reason I am annoyed at this change and other changes is that the REASONING itself is so obviously flawed and just screams of wanting to not offend a few people as it leads to fuck ups such as the recent fire emblem.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;50028813]Is that really all that makes this an issue for you? Artists don't actually have to defend their work tooth and nail, you know that right? Many creators make things, and only after the fact, with some feedback or analysis realise that they can in fact do better. An artist not "standing up for themselves" isn't some crime against art. It's an artist looking at their own work critically. I honestly doubt Blizzard of all developers, renown for their ability to not give a fuck about fan demands, instantly caved in. [...][/QUOTE] [URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1512310&p=50026852&viewfull=1#post50026852"]As I said before[/URL], this stuff (meaning equating sexiness with offense and apologising for it) also results in "reverse" body shaming. [URL="https://twitter.com/redlianak/"]Liana K[/URL] somewhat regularly tweets about these things, I assume because this trend affects her personally to some extent. It has recently become worryingly acceptable to attack someone for looking good and doing something with that. At least to me personally that is utterly out of line in terms of basic decency, so if someone encourages that I'm going to complain. I also don't think it's fine to hand-wave that as non-issue. Unlike when there's possibly disagreeable content in a game (without any value judgements attached, which is almost always the case when complaints about "sexism" blow up), you have someone very specifically broadcasting that a benign action is objectionable in some way (which imo is a bit iffy). When you consider that in this case it's a [I]judgement to limit[/I] depiction of [I]clothing choices[/I] and [I]behaviour[/I], can you see how I think this likely contributes to a climate negatively affecting people in real life?

[QUOTE=paul simon;50028949]Generally ridiculing them for their actions / views on the matter. People seem to be under the impression that the original post was made by some Anita follower / SJW fanatic, while in reality the post was very humble. You know, suddenly people start talking about burkas and whatnot, as if this is some slippery slope thing, and I think that's overly aggressive and improper.[/QUOTE] See, I don't see that as an attack. Everyone ridicules people who they think are unreasonable. A lot of people have ridiculed people for being upset over this, but I wouldn't say people complaining about self censorship are being attacked. If people say stuff like "you're just upset because you're an ugly bitch who no one wants to fuck", then, yeah, that's an uncalled for personal attack. But stuff like "you're a fucking idiot and what you said was retarded" is just rude disagreement. As for all the burka stuff, I think it's more "these people have such high standards women will only be properly represented when you can't see them" than it is "SJWlluminati coming for my vidya". I'm sure there are some people who believe the latter(MGTOW *shudder*), but they're a laughably tiny minority.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50028983]See, I don't see that as an attack. Everyone ridicules people who they think are unreasonable. A lot of people have ridiculed people for being upset over this, but I wouldn't say people complaining about self censorship are being attacked. If people say stuff like "you're just upset because you're an ugly bitch who no one wants to fuck", then, yeah, that's an uncalled for personal attack. But stuff like "you're a fucking idiot and what you said was retarded" is just rude disagreement.[/QUOTE] I suppose we can agree to disagree, because I've not seen anyone from any sides being attacked according to those rules. I think that within arguments and discussions ridicule often counts as a personal attack, because it doesn't really add anything meaning to the discussion, it just serves to upset people and strengthen your own view. [QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50028983]As for all the burka stuff, I think it's more "these people have such high standards women will only be properly represented when you can't see them" than it is "SJWlluminati coming for my vidya". (...)[/QUOTE] I believe this is uncalled for as well, especially if going by the original post that sparked all of this. In that persons opinion, the pose didn't fit Tracer, but they were fine with other female characters doing the same. It wasn't about censoring outfits, it was about their understanding of Tracers character, and they felt that this pose conflicted with their idea of the character.

[QUOTE=Sgt.vodka95;50028948]If that character is sexualized, they should watch the female characters of League of Legends...[/QUOTE] Or, y'know, Widowmaker, who has a pose not dissimilar. [t]http://i.imgur.com/0Whjmda.png[/t]

[QUOTE=paul simon;50028949]Generally ridiculing them for their actions / views on the matter. People seem to be under the impression that the original post was made by some Anita follower / SJW fanatic, while in reality the post was very humble. You know, suddenly people start talking about burkas and whatnot, as if this is some slippery slope thing, and I think that's overly aggressive and improper.[/QUOTE] People wouldn't have given two shits about that post. This is a combination of a lunatic poster (who, of course, thinks being sexually attractive is bad, makes characters "less strong" or is bad in a role model) and the response from blizz saying "We're changing because we don't want to offend anyone!" People need to stop perceiving sexual attractiveness as something negative. It's not healthy. Specially if you're raising a young girl. It's not even an oversexual character, it's a character having a percieved sexual attractiviness. But yeah, a burka for Tracer would be a very british thing.

[QUOTE=paul simon;50029003]I suppose we can agree to disagree, because I've not seen anyone from any sides being attacked according to those rules. I think that within arguments and discussions ridicule often counts as a personal attack, because it doesn't really add anything meaning to the discussion, it just serves to upset people and strengthen your own view.[/QUOTE] Entirely right. Ideally, people would calmly and rationally discuss their grievances with open minds, taking care to understand each other's perspectives and views so as to come to a more accurate and learned conclusion. Let's all try to make that world a reality. :v

[QUOTE=Ragekipz;50029026]People wouldn't have given two shits about that post. T[B]his is a combination of a lunatic poster (who, of course, thinks being sexually attractive is bad, makes characters "less strong" or is bad in a role model)[/B] and the response from blizz saying "We're changing because we don't want to offend anyone!"[/QUOTE] Did you even read their post? How was the poster lunatic? The poster complains about Tracer specifically, how they believe Tracers pose conflicts with Tracers character. It's not about sexuality being bad, heck the poster even says they've no problem with Widowmaker for instance, because the sexuality is part of Widowmakers character. [img]http://puu.sh/nYDyB.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=paul simon;50029003]I believe this is uncalled for as well, especially if going by the original post that sparked all of this. In that persons opinion, the pose didn't fit Tracer, but they were fine with other female characters doing the same. It wasn't about censoring outfits, it was about their understanding of Tracers character, and they felt that this pose conflicted with their idea of the character.[/QUOTE] I mostly agree in regards to the initial post. However, I do think there are lot of people who see sexualization as something that's inherently problematic. GarbageCan summed up that philosophy quite well earlier. Plus you have people like that Gamespot employee essentially saying that if you get rid of anime butts you'll have less rape. That doesn't help.

I think this is made into a much bigger deal than it should be. If you so desperately need to see her butt, go to paheal.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;50029073]I mostly agree in regards to the initial post. However,[B] I do think there are lot of people who see sexualization as something that's inherently problematic.[/B] GarbageCan summed up that philosophy quite well earlier. Plus you have people like that Gamespot employee essentially saying that if you get rid of anime butts you'll have less rape. That doesn't help.[/QUOTE] Yes, you're right, a lot of people see sexuality as only a problem, which in itself is a problem. I look at these things on a case-to-case and person-to-person basis though. I don't think we should carry our prejudice from other cases into this issue, as it may not apply at all.

[QUOTE=gastyne;50029076]I think this is made into a much bigger deal than it should be. If you so desperately need to see her butt, go to paheal.[/QUOTE] Did you read anything on the last three or four pages? That (mostly) isn't what the issue is here.