[QUOTE=fruxodaily;44566372]Australia had some what of a gun culture tho nothing like Americas, our ban on guns caused a lot of controversy but at the end of the day, Australia is peaceful and the crime rate is pretty much the same as the UKs[/QUOTE]
correlation doesn't equal causation broooo.
[QUOTE=SHIG;44566067]Top 10 causes of death in the US in 2010.
Heart Disease (597,689 deaths)
Cancer (574,743 deaths)
Chronic Lower Respiratory Disease
Stroke
Unintentional Injury
Alzheimer's Disease
Diabetes
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, nephrosis
Influenza and pneumonia
suicide
[URL]http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6208a8.htm[/URL]
Firearm related deaths including suicide in 2010.
31,672
Firearm suicides in 2010.
19,392
Only 12,280 firearm deaths not including suicide in 2010.
[URL]http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states[/URL]
Of those 12,280 about 70%-80% were gang on gang related homicide. ~8,900 death.
[URL]http://usconservatives.about.com/od/capitalpunishment/a/Putting-Gun-Death-Statistics-In-Perspective.htm[/URL]
~3380 killed in a country of 314 million.
Between 2005-2009 an average of 3,533 fatal unintentional drownings (non-boating related) annually in the United States.
[URL]http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/water-safety/waterinjuries-factsheet.html[/URL]
In the US you have a greater chance of drowning than you do of being fatally shot. You greatly decrease your chances of being fatally shot if you don't hang out in the hood, are not planning on committing suicide, and are not planning on committing a crime.[/QUOTE]
Gang related means gang related. There have stories of locals dieing here because some gang member missed their shot, and that's inherently gang related. People are killed in the crossfire of gang related activity, these are people who didn't need to die, and might not've die if gangs somehow didn't have guns.
I realize that it's not difficult to get guns, and pro-gun people will argue that banning guns is useless, but it makes it even easier to get guns if the thought of owning guns is normalized in people's heads, and there is an abundance of guns out in the public. That's exactly what a gun culture is.
Also, in total that's 30 thousand people who died for no reason. You can talk about the ethics of suicide and such, but suicide is still a top 10 cause of death, as you even mentioned. Maybe these people didn't need to die, maybe they wouldn't have died if they had tried a different method, who knows? Guns are a very effective way of killing yourself, and making your family clean your brains off the walls of your bedroom is certainly not something people should aspire to do.
At the end of the day, I don't understand how you can justify it though. 12280 people die every year because of guns in non-suicides, but because you don't deem them as statistically important enough, you'd rather just let people have guns? Why is it so hard to believe that your hobby is possibly dangerous?
Yeah but is taking away the gang's guns going to fix the problem that is causing the gangs to exist in the first place?
[editline]16th April 2014[/editline]
You know, education, poverty, those sorts of issues.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;44566641]Gang related means gang related. There have stories of locals dieing here because some gang member missed their shot, and that's inherently gang related. People are killed in the crossfire of gang related activity. These are people who don't need to die, and might not die if they somehow didn't have guns.
I realize that it's not difficult to get guns, and pro-gun people will argue that banning guns is useless, but it makes it even easier to get guns if the thought of owning guns is normalized in people's heads, and there is an abundance of guns out in the public. That's exactly what a gun culture is.
Also, in total that's 30 thousand people who died for no reason. You can talk about the ethics of suicide and such, but suicide is still a top 10 cause of death, as you even mentioned. Maybe these people didn't need to die, maybe they wouldn't have died if they had tried a different method, who knows? Guns are a very effective way of killing yourself, and making your family clean your brains off the walls of your bedroom is certainly not something people should aspire to do.
At the end of the day, I don't understand how you can justify it though. 12280 people die every year because of guns in non-suicides, but because you don't deem them as statistically important enough, you'd rather just let people have guns? Why is it so hard to believe that your hobby is possibly dangerous?[/QUOTE]
I think most people can agree that guns can be a dangerous weapon, but in fairness, that 12,280 people equates to ~0.0004% of our population. You are thee times more likely to die in a car accident. Don't get me wrong, I would much prefer those 12,280 people to continue living, but I don't believe for a second that outright removing guns is going to fix that problem.
That said, I am in favor of stricter regulation on guns, but I would also like to see fixing the root causes (poverty, gangs, mental health issues, etc) of this violence given higher priority than the weapons themselves.
[QUOTE=bdd458;44566707]Yeah but is taking away the gang's guns going to fix the problem that is causing the gangs to exist in the first place?
[editline]16th April 2014[/editline]
You know, education, poverty, those sorts of issues.[/QUOTE]
It's a cycle. Gun crime is just one part of the cycle. There are lots of factors to this, but people that live in fear and poverty continue to live in fear and poverty because that's all they've ever known. Some have never aspired to anything else. When you arrest lower-class fathers for drug-related "crimes," you create a generation of fatherless kids who don't know how to behave in society. TH89 linked me to a good documentary on this, but it looks like he removed me from steam, and I can't remember it.
[QUOTE]The grassroots umbrella group, called Everytown, is "a movement of Americans working together to end gun violence and build safer communities."[/QUOTE]
Can it really be called a grassroots group if it's funded by a multi millionaire?
[QUOTE=JeanLuc761;44566721]I think most people can agree that guns can be a dangerous weapon, but in fairness, that 12,280 people equates to ~0.0004% of our population. You are thee times more likely to die in a car accident. Don't get me wrong, I would much prefer those 12,280 people to continue living, but I don't believe for a second that outright removing guns is going to fix that problem.
[/QUOTE]
Not to sound like a fucking tool, but 3000 people died in 9/11 and 2500 died in pearl harbor, and those only happened once. Now look how that even have affected your country. As much as those were one time events, they still caused great change and had a great impact, not because of the number of deaths, but because of the change in public opinion. They changed how the general public felt, quite suddenly.
Now realize that more than 6 times (including suicides) those combined dies every year from guns. Think about what effect does that have without you even realizing? That's what I'm trying to say.
Maybe this was a bit of a contrived example though.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;44566725]It's a cycle. Gun crime is just one part of the cycle. There are lots of factors to this, but people that live in fear and poverty continue to live in fear and poverty because that's all they've ever known. Some have never aspired to anything else. When you arrest lower-class fathers for drug-related "crimes," you create a generation of fatherless kids who don't know how to behave in society. TH89 linked me to a good documentary on this, but it looks like he removed me from steam, and I can't remember it.[/QUOTE]
In counterculture last year, we studied Hip-Hop and the urban culture, and it is [I]directly caused from poverty[/I]. Impoverished areas have less education, and less job opportunities as a result. Because of that people are stuck in dead end, low wage jobs making pennies. Then the young ones see the guys peddling drugs making lots of money, and eventually get recruited into that lifestyle due to the allure of money.
[QUOTE=bdd458;44566835]In counterculture last year, we studied Hip-Hop and the urban culture, and it is [I]directly caused from poverty[/I]. Impoverished areas have less education, and less job opportunities as a result. Because of that people are stuck in dead end, low wage jobs making pennies. Then the young ones see the guys peddling drugs making lots of money, and eventually get recruited into that lifestyle due to the allure of money.[/QUOTE]
But would you say poverty is the only factor, or are there other factors?
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;44566641]Gang related means gang related. There have stories of locals dieing here because some gang member missed their shot, and that's inherently gang related. People are killed in the crossfire of gang related activity, these are people who didn't need to die, and might not've die if gangs somehow didn't have guns.
I realize that it's not difficult to get guns, and pro-gun people will argue that banning guns is useless, but it makes it even easier to get guns if the thought of owning guns is normalized in people's heads, and there is an abundance of guns out in the public. That's exactly what a gun culture is.
Also, in total that's 30 thousand people who died for no reason. You can talk about the ethics of suicide and such, but suicide is still a top 10 cause of death, as you even mentioned. Maybe these people didn't need to die, maybe they wouldn't have died if they had tried a different method, who knows? Guns are a very effective way of killing yourself, and making your family clean your brains off the walls of your bedroom is certainly not something people should aspire to do.
At the end of the day, I don't understand how you can justify it though. 12280 people die every year because of guns in non-suicides, but because you don't deem them as statistically important enough, you'd rather just let people have guns? Why is it so hard to believe that your hobby is possibly dangerous?[/QUOTE]
You do know that if a suicidal person doesn't have a gun nothing is stopping them from finding some other method.
There are ~300 millions guns owned by American civilians, the vast majority have never been used in crime and will never be used in crime. Why should a law abiding citizen give up their guns? Why should I give up my guns? All I use them for is shooting clays, paper, and cans. What am I doing wrong?
A lot of hobbies are dangerous. Cars are a hobby of some people and in 2012, 33,561 people were killed in highway deaths. Lets ban cars!
[URL]http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Press+Releases/NHTSA+Data+Confirms+Traffic+Fatalities+Increased+In+2012[/URL]
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;44566956]But would you say poverty is the only factor, or are there other factors?[/QUOTE]
Poverty, education, and drugs are the three factors that have caused gangs to spring up and thrive. gun violence is a symptom of the nature of gangs.
[QUOTE=bdd458;44567046]Poverty, education, and drugs are the three factors that have caused gangs to spring up and thrive. gun violence is a symptom of the nature of gangs.[/QUOTE]
Hm. That's an interesting thought. I was always under the impression there are more factors at play. Do you have anything to read or watch on this?
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;44566792]Not to sound like a fucking tool, but 3000 people died in 9/11 and 2500 died in pearl harbor, and those only happened once. Now look how that even have affected your country. As much as those were one time events, they still caused great change and had a great impact, not because of the number of deaths, but because of the change in public opinion. They changed how the general public felt, quite suddenly.
Now realize that more than 6 times (including suicides) those combined dies every year from guns. Think about what effect does that have without you even realizing? That's what I'm trying to say.
Maybe this was a bit of a contrived example though.[/QUOTE]
Yeah uh, this doesn't work at all, because of these very obvious reasons:
1. Those deaths happened very very close together or all at once.
2. Those deaths happened as an attack on the U.S., an act of war, an attack on our ideals, this tends to impact the public much more than 'another gang member found dead via gunwounds'.
3. Just because there are a massive amount of people dying from car accidents every year doesn't mean the entire country will suddenly 'change how it feels' and wage a war on cars and ban roads. While yes cars and roads are much more useful than guns, guns are just as much a part of our culture as cars are.
I really don't understand people outside of the U.S. who just generalize everything, say "i dont understand americans :)' and then go ahead and start thinking they can dictate how we should make our laws and run our country.
How would people feel, as a person who never visited Sweden or Russia, to just openly suggest 'lets ban something thats really popular over there because it causes deaths sometimes.'
I understand this is a forum and people have a right to express their opinion, but what value do people think their comment even holds when they spout the typical "I LIVE IN BRITAIN AND EVERTHING WORKS PERFECTLY WHY ISNT THE US THE SAME???????"
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;44567118]Hm. That's an interesting thought. I was always under the impression there are more factors at play. Do you have anything to read or watch on this?[/QUOTE]
Not on hand no, I can ask that teacher for some stuff when school is back in session next week.
Poverty and education are closely linked together. That's why in areas where there is less poverty there is better education, and as a result little to no gang activity. There's a reason impoverished areas have poor education, because there is no money to go to education. They have to spend taxes on more policing to curb the gangs. It's a viscous, cyclical cycle. But it all leads back to money, or a lack thereof.
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;44566372]Australia had some what of a gun culture tho nothing like Americas, our ban on guns caused a lot of controversy but at the end of the day, Australia is peaceful and the crime rate is pretty much the same as the UKs[/QUOTE]
Mental illness and poverty are the reasons we have so many shootings, and so much crime, guns are only a means to an end. I can't find a lot of info on mass shooting in Australia, so they couldn't have been that big a problem before. The arson attacks in recent years were more deadly than most of the shootings, so I wouldn't say the gun ban ended mass shootings in Australia. You only banned guns because everyone reacted to the Port Arthur shooting and decided one major incident was reason to strip them away from everyone. Plus, there was a shooting in the 2000's, wasn't very lethal, but even the ban didn't [I]end[/I] them for good.
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;44561802]
Props to this guy and his group, it's a good step[/QUOTE]
Not really.
[editline]16th April 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=ntzu;44567131]Yeah uh, this doesn't work at all, because of these very obvious reasons:
1. Those deaths happened very very close together or all at once.
2. Those deaths happened as an attack on the U.S., an act of war, an attack on our ideals, this tends to impact the public much more than 'another gang member found dead via gunwounds'.
3. Just because there are a massive amount of people dying from car accidents every year doesn't mean the entire country will suddenly 'change how it feels' and wage a war on cars and ban roads. While yes cars and roads are much more useful than guns, guns are just as much a part of our culture as cars are.
I really don't understand people outside of the U.S. who just generalize everything, say "i dont understand americans :)' and then go ahead and start thinking they can dictate how we should make our laws and run our country.
How would people feel, as a person who never visited Sweden or Russia, to just openly suggest 'lets ban something thats really popular over there because it causes deaths sometimes.'
I understand this is a forum and people have a right to express their opinion, but what value do people think their comment even holds when they spout the typical "I LIVE IN BRITAIN AND EVERTHING WORKS PERFECTLY WHY ISNT THE US THE SAME???????"[/QUOTE]
Exactly this, I'd always been disgusted with the amount of Ameri-centrism in this country until I joined FP and realized that Europe and the commonwealths are 2x worse
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;44567569]Mental illness and poverty are the reasons we have so many shootings, and so much crime, guns are only a means to an end. I can't find a lot of info on mass shooting in Australia, so they couldn't have been that big a problem before. The arson attacks in recent years were more deadly than most of the shootings, so I wouldn't say the gun ban ended mass shootings in Australia. You only banned guns because everyone reacted to the Port Arthur shooting and decided one major incident was reason to strip them away from everyone. Plus, there was a shooting in the 2000's, wasn't very lethal, but even the ban didn't [I]end[/I] them for good.[/QUOTE]
The thing was, was that we had a fair amount of gun massacres pre-port Arthur, post-port Arthur there's been barely anything.
The Howard government didn't see the need for it and the public polls showed great support in banning weapons, the buy-back program was a success because the Government gave a good amount of cash for weapons
Of course there's still many missing weapons underground, far away from the police's reach but they're either from farmers or gun lovers
The ban didn't have any significant consequences and in my opinion, it was a success.
The Daily Show did a whole story on it
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pOiOhxujsE[/media]
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;44567670] the buy-back program was a success because the Government gave a good amount of cash for weapons
[/QUOTE]
it was a success because it was compulsory.
You either complied or were branded a criminal. Law abiding people are generally, guess what, law abiding. Hence compliance and gritting of teeth.
Also got a citation on the amount of money they were compensating? Looking for the info myself.
[quote] The buyback purchased and destroyed more than 631,000 firearms, [B]mostly semi-auto .22 rimfires, semi-automatic shotguns and pump-action shotguns. [/B]Only Victoria provided a breakdown of types destroyed, and in that state [B]less than 3%[/B] were military style semi-automatic rifles.[/quote]
oh boy I'm so glad they got those off the streets...
I'm also pretty confused why pump-action shotguns are deemed evil and were banned. I don't even think the UK has that, what a joke.
Also is a good example of why you never give anti-gunners an inch. "Oh we only want X don't worry we wouldn't come after you." "Well actually Y is dangerous too you don't mind if we take that?" "Well Z [I]could[/I] be a threat that should go too."
It was probably a small 100 dollar giftcard or a coupon entitling you to free McDonalds Sausage Egg McMuffins
[editline]16th April 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;44567670]The thing was, was that we had a fair amount of gun massacres pre-port Arthur, post-port Arthur there's been barely anything.
The Howard government didn't see the need for it and the public polls showed great support in banning weapons, the buy-back program was a success because the Government gave a good amount of cash for weapons
Of course there's still many missing weapons underground, far away from the police's reach but they're either from farmers or gun lovers
The ban didn't have any significant consequences and in my opinion, it was a success.
The Daily Show did a whole story on it
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pOiOhxujsE[/media][/QUOTE]
Wow, you just eat that stuff up don't you
[QUOTE=RichyZ;44567726]dont get how you guys can argue about gun control so vehemently at this point[/QUOTE]
It's my sole reason for living.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;44567726]dont get how you guys can argue about gun control so vehemently at this point
every time i see this type of thread it seems like the argument boils down to even more basic components than before
it used to be an argument based on logic and facts, then turning into those with some anecdotes, and now its almost all anecdotes, snappy lines, comebacks, image macros, and facebook old people share tier fact pics[/QUOTE]
The thing is, these arguments are started by arrogant Euro-centric ignoramuses who no nothing about our culture, society and government, so there's no facts nor logic that they can use.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;44567726]
it used to be an argument based on logic and facts, then turning into those with some anecdotes, and now its almost all anecdotes, snappy lines, comebacks, image macros, and facebook old people share tier fact pics[/QUOTE]
Is it? I've been in worse gun control threads.
[QUOTE=BFG9000;44567701]Wow, you just eat that stuff up don't you[/QUOTE]
It's true. And guess what? I don't go to school each day thinking we're going to be shot dead by some crazed fuckwit
I don't go into town worrying I might be shot dead point blank carrying on about my day
I don't fear that I'll wake up with a barrel to my temple with some guy in a ski mask about to shoot my entire family
I live in a nation that has been safe since 1996 and I'm proud of it
And no matter where this debate heads I will always say that I will always support gun control.
Also American politics are the biggest shit lords on the planet and I hope you guys grow out of this phase
[QUOTE=Aman;44567697]it was a success because it was compulsory.
You either complied or were branded a criminal. Law abiding people are generally, guess what, law abiding. Hence compliance and gritting of teeth.[/QUOTE]
See, this is one thing everybody glosses over that I don't understand. What's the point of cracking down on crime by creating 'paper criminals' - citizens who are only breaking a law because it specifically criminalizes them? I can't recall seeing this kind of logic applied in any other context, and honestly it seems pretty nonsensical to me to begin with. I'm not trying to be inflammatory or anything, I genuinely don't understand how something like that actually helps anybody.
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;44567769]It's true. And guess what? I don't go to school each day thinking we're going to be shot dead by some crazed fuckwit
I don't go into town worrying I might be shot dead point blank carrying on about my day
I don't fear that I'll wake up with a barrel to my temple with some guy in a ski mask about to shoot my entire family
I live in a nation that has been safe since 1996 and I'm proud of it
And no matter where this debate heads I will always say that I will never support gun control.
Also American politics are the biggest shit lords on the planet and I hope you guys grow out of this phase[/QUOTE]
You don't have an argument at this point its just insults and holier than thou talk. Well gg.
I also lol'd at your retarded failed attempt here:
[quote]And no matter where this debate heads I will always say that[B] I will never support gun control.[/B](?)[/quote]
Also you seriously think pre 1996 every Australian lived in fear daily?
Fuck you are too dense to talk to it just makes me want to ad hominem back. I'm done with you since there's no substance or point.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44567782]So are you enjoying the R18+ rating that your government FINALLY implemented? Do you enjoy living in a state that coddles the ever living fuck out of you, protecting you from any real thought or action that might cause you harm?
[/QUOTE]
How does it feel to wake up fearful every morning of your life you peon American? I'd say move to Australia but we don't take kindly to cowboys around here you'd have to leave your machine guns and false sense of freedom at home.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44567782]So are you enjoying the R18+ rating that your government FINALLY implemented? Do you enjoy living in a state that coddles the ever living fuck out of you, protecting you from any real thought or action that might cause you harm?
We might not be perfect, but neither are you, so get off that pedestal that you've falsely placed yourself on, and rejoin us on earth, where no one is perfect, and there isn't just one solution to a problem.[/QUOTE]
You are right (seriously) no nation is perfect. Australia has it's flaws but at the end of the day I like this Country, even though I have had thoughts of possibly moving to Canada or the UK when I'm older just to see a different slice of the world.
R18+ was put in for video games not so long ago, yes, but the content could always be accessed with backdoor methods which I used a lot of the time, sure it was inconvenient but fuck it worked
With that coddling state, I don't feel it tbh. I feel free, I can go where I want, say what I want and express my opinion which I'm exercising now and so are you guys.
I am down with you guys but I just don't support guns, so sorry if that's a crime. I might have a wild say on this shit but you got to understand that I don't see it, I've read everyone's debate with an open mind but I just couldn't ever see me being comfortable with civilians carrying military grade weaponry in public
If it's locked up at home? That's fine with me, just don't tell me about it
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;44567805] even though I have had thoughts of possibly moving to [B]Canada[/B] or the UK when I'm older just to see a different slice of the world.
[/QUOTE]
Don't move here, and at least if you do move here never vote.
[QUOTE=Aman;44567814]Don't move here, and at least if you do never vote.[/QUOTE]
Why? I kind of like Canada, always have for some strange reason. Is it bullshit?
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;44567822]Just an FYI, none of the shit civilians "carry around" is military grade. It's all semi-auto at best. It costs a ton of money to own something that's actually "military" grade, and the people that do have that kind of money, dont open carry.[/QUOTE]
Even with that I just don't like the idea of open carry, I've stated it before in tons of threads no use with me arguing on that
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