[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32430205]If they make a law about now wearing face-covering objects but still allow Islam members to wear these, then it's encouraging this religion over the others.[/QUOTE]
no it's not it's simply making all religious expression free. the law should punish criminals, not people who's only crime is having a different religion. how are you not understanding this?
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32430205]Christianity or Judaism don't include integral veils.[/QUOTE]
uh yes some in the christian or jewish community are forced veils because the same fucking thing in the qu'ran that says "cover it up" exists in the bible and torah word-for-word.
Oh yeah and it was interpreted by Christians as this :
[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-B5n3cNs83UQ/TbiIFTqYZXI/AAAAAAAAFBg/a_ysL-b_mC4/s1600/nun.jpg[/img]
Not this :
[img]http://www.michelledastier.org/images/sc%C3%A8nes%20de%20la%20vie/religions%20non%20chretiennes/burqa.jpg[/img]
You're seriously the prejudiced guy here for instantly thinking "face covered = islam". The law wasn't voted for that, it just includes all face-covering clothes. Two of the seven common ways of hiding your face in Islam fall under that category, that's a shame, but it's like that. Making an exception for this would infuriate more people because it's making an exception for a specific religion (or even for Religion as a whole) than just letting it fall under one of the categories the law bans.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32430289]
You're seriously the prejudiced guy here for instantly thinking "face covered = islam". [/QUOTE]
don't be stupid, i never equated islam to being face covered.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32430289]The law wasn't voted for that, it just includes all face-covering clothes. Two of the seven common ways of hiding your face in Islam fall under that category, that's a shame, but it's like that. [/QUOTE]
and again, that's bullshit because it's treating people who's only difference is religious expression as a crime.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32429575]I doubt most people here realize it's a law that covers all kinds of face-covering things. It's not just about Muslim women covering their face, not even about the Niqab (at the time this law was voted it was called the "burqa ban law".
I just think it's somewhat fashionable to accuse people of being anti-Muslim because it makes one sound tolerant or something.[/QUOTE]
To be completely honest, the role of the law itself is very very clear. IN part due to the amount of people from specific social groups that it is tailored at.
Very often similar laws are called hidden discriminatory laws due to them giving main benefits or issues for one social group, nationality and similar.
But in contrast to open discriminatory laws they do not outrightly cause discrimination. That is one reason why context is very important when reviewing a given law.
But considering pre-existing pretext and already existing and upheld laws in France I doubt this law will fall on the basis of limitation of free religious expression. The fact that you are not allowed to obstruct your face might lead to constitutional issues though. But it depends how well the various courts and lawyers will be able to argue the given points.
[QUOTE=thisispain;32430336]and again, that's bullshit because it's treating people who's only difference is religious expression as a crime.[/QUOTE]
Said the guy who lives in a country where people tried to stop a mosque from being built in New York for no fucking reason other than "people destroyed two towers !"
It's not treating THEM in particular. There is a law against indecency and exhibitionism that makes it illegal to go around naked, it's not specifically touching nudists, it's touching everyone going around naked. Being able to express your taste for walking naked and your religion both fall under freedom of expression, but you have to abide by some rules. If your religion makes it illegal for you to wear an integral veil, just use an alternative (there are five other popular ways of respecting Islam by covering your face) or accept to respect the law. Once again it's not because less than a hundred of women are still wearing these and are complaining about it that the law suddenly is a religious persecution issue or whatever.
Religious people have no more rights than others, they have to abide by the same laws and do as other people do. Thus we don't have to put more specific limits to a general law, because that would be encouraging religion by the mere fact it has subsequently more rights than others. This is a republic where everyone is born and lives equal (hence the declaration of human rights that was written by the French), no one has any privilege over anyone else, so no, Muslims don't have to be an exception and have their own little status that make them able to avoid this law.
Plus, in practice, women wearing the Niqab won't be arrested and fined instantly, they are politely asked to show their face (you can walk freely with that thing on, the law in practice applies when you have to talk to someone or access the services of a hospital, a store or any other public places service). If you blindly insist and keep going in the direction that you don't have to listen to people asking you to abide by the laws, the other said people can call the cops so they arrest you for not giving a shit and estimating yourself above the laws everyone else follow.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32430440]Said the guy who lives in a country where people tried to stop a mosque from being built in New York for no fucking reason other than "people destroyed two towers !"[/QUOTE]
don't be stupid
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32430440]t's not treating THEM in particular. There is a law against indecency and exhibitionism that makes it illegal to go around naked, it's not specifically touching nudists, it's touching everyone going around naked. Being able to express your taste for walking naked and your religion both fall under freedom of expression, but you have to abide by some rules. If your religion makes it illegal for you to wear an integral veil, just use an alternative (there are five other popular ways of respecting Islam by covering your face) or accept to respect the law. Once again it's not because less than a hundred of women are still wearing these and are complaining about it that the law suddenly is a religious persecution issue or whatever.[/QUOTE]
there's no need to respect a law that turns people who do no harm into criminals. what the fuck is the harm besides french people not wanting to see muslims?
[QUOTE=thisispain;32430503]there's no need to respect a law that turns people who do no harm into criminals. what the fuck is the harm besides french people not wanting to see muslims?[/QUOTE]
And what is with you not understanding Niqabs and Burqa aren't the only way of showing your beliefs and that the law isn't applied instantly to anyone leaving their home with a Burqa on their face ? If you're not willing to show your face even for a minute to a person asking you in a store, then you are being insulting and you're purposely fucking with the law.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32430612]And what is with you not understanding Niqabs and Burqa aren't the only way of showing your beliefs and that the law isn't applied instantly to anyone leaving their home with a Burqa on their face ?[/QUOTE]
apparently it is, these women just walked by the town hall.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32430612] If you're not willing to show your face even for a minute to a person asking you in a store, then you are being insulting and you're purposely fucking with the law.[/QUOTE]
good red herring but that's not what the fine was about. they were just walking about. I'll ask again, besides not wanting to see muslims, what harm does wearing a niqab do that warrants police intervention?
unless you can actually prove it's for the public safety it all smells like merde!
you seem utterly incapable of answering a very simple question. are you always so obedient to authority?
I'd agree with it if it was about entering stores, for the same reason that people are banned from wearing motorcycle helmets in supermarkets in the UK, but as it stands, not so sure.
do we really need the law to intervene with wearing motorcycle helmets in tesco's?
[QUOTE=thisispain;32430790]do we really need the law to intervene with wearing motorcycle helmets in tesco's?[/QUOTE]
yes seeing as several robberies have been committed by people wearing motorcycle helmets if I remember correctly.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;32430814]yes seeing as several robberies have been committed by people wearing motorcycle helmets if I remember correctly.[/QUOTE]
if they're going to rob you, which if i remember correctly was also illegal, how are motorcycle helmet bans going to stop that?
[QUOTE=thisispain;32430829]if they're going to rob you, which if i remember correctly was also illegal, how are motorcycle helmet bans going to stop that?[/QUOTE]
how is any law going to stop any crime?
serious question.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;32430766]I'd agree with it if it was about entering stores, for the same reason that people are banned from wearing motorcycle helmets in supermarkets in the UK, but as it stands, not so sure.[/QUOTE]
It's about entering places available to everyone. It doesn't really covers the street (no one's gonna call the cops if they see a niqab wearing woman walking by) but pretty much stores, town halls, hospitals, etc (this is why the law is applying to motorcycle helmets, you're habitually not driving your bike right into the store you wanna enter).
Also, the two women entered with a huge packaged cake that they wanted to offer to the local mayor for his birthday. Did I mention the guy is the one who had the idea for the law ? Given we had some terrorism acts attempts (one of which was set up by a woman) recently, I perfectly understand they found two women entering with a big closed package in destination to the guy who made the law slightly suspicious.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;32430857]how is any law going to stop any crime?
serious question.[/QUOTE]
well exactly law's don't really prevent crime in a region that much. the UK banned a lot of things yet a lot of places suffer from high crimes. you have to use different methods.
[QUOTE=thisispain;32430948]well exactly law's don't really prevent crime in a region that much. the UK banned a lot of things yet a lot of places suffer from high crimes. you have to use different methods.[/QUOTE]
Sorry we don't have Minority Report-style prediction powers yet.
Also the laws are the most democratic way to deal with a problem and prevent a crime because they don't include watching you all the time.
[QUOTE=thisispain;32430948]well exactly law's don't really prevent crime in a region that much. the UK banned a lot of things yet a lot of places suffer from high crimes. you have to use different methods.[/QUOTE]
laws prevent nothing.
the problem with having the view you have there, is that if you say that 'they're going to break the law anyway', then why even have a law against robbery, the people that are going to do it, are going to do it regardless.
we ban motorcycle helmets in tescos so that the innocent people entering tescos aren't immediately suspicious, whereas those who enter with helmets on are far more likely to be committing a crime.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32430968]Sorry we don't have Minority Report-style prediction powers yet.[/QUOTE]
who's we and who are you apologizing to?
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32430968]Also the laws are the most democratic way to deal with a problem and prevent a crime because they don't include watching you all the time.[/QUOTE]
and they obviously don't do shit because people still get robbed and innocent women get fined.
great job french society you sucked a giant dick, the only way you can redeem yourself is if you cut off sarkozy's head
By the way, one of the two women who entered the town hall, Kenza Drider, is known for being a presidential elections candidate for 2012. She's totally refused to take the Niqab away (even though there are once again 5 other ways of expressing the same thing that are not against the law) and has been caught several times refusing to take it away and acted rather violently to polite demands to show her face.
[editline]22nd September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=thisispain;32430991]and they obviously don't do shit because people still get robbed and innocent women get fined.
great job french society you sucked a giant dick, the only way you can redeem yourself is if you cut off sarkozy's head[/QUOTE]
US have laws too. If you don't prohibit someone, then people doing unacceptable things will get away with nothing. You're seriously starting to lack coherency and even credibility.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;32430986]why even have a law against robbery, the people that are going to do it, are going to do it regardless.[/QUOTE]
because if robbery was legal, people would be exploited and helpless.
you make robbery illegal so that if someone was to be robbed the police could help you and you could take some kind of action to get it back, however as far as prevention goes it's not that effective. if they're gonna commit a larger crime by robbing you a fine for motorcycle helmets won't deter them will it.
and i never said make robbery legal
[editline]22nd September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32431002]
US have laws too.[/QUOTE]
wait really?
You said "France has laws that don't prevent people from doing shit ! France sucks"
How much sense does that make
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32431046]You said "France has laws that don't prevent people from doing shit ! France sucks"
How much sense does that make[/QUOTE]
Here's the thing: Criminals aren't going to give a shit about some fine for wearing a balaclava or motorcycle helmet while they're trying to rob somebody. What crime do you think this is going to stop or even partially prevent?
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32431046]You said "France has laws that don't prevent people from doing shit ! France sucks"
How much sense does that make[/QUOTE]
i'm pretty sure i asked like 10 times "what good does banning the veil do besides censor shit that some french people obviously do not want to see" and i got no response.
so i'm pretty sure this is a useless law not worth defending.
and i spent a couple of years in france, it was a pretty cool place, good food, nice people (if you speak french), and just such amazing looking women.
[QUOTE=thisispain;32431110]i'm pretty sure i asked like 10 times "what good does banning the veil do besides censor shit that some french people obviously do not want to see" and i got no response.
so i'm pretty sure this is a useless law not worth defending.
and i spent a couple of years in france, it was a pretty cool place, good food, nice people (if you speak french), and just such amazing looking women.[/QUOTE]
And again, what criminal is this designed to discourage? If the idea is that it's used for robbery and shootings, do you really think a fine for the type of headgear they wear during the crime is going to do a damn thing?
[QUOTE=thisispain;32431027]because if robbery was legal, people would be exploited and helpless.
you make robbery illegal so that if someone was to be robbed the police could help you and you could take some kind of action to get it back, however as far as prevention goes it's not that effective. if they're gonna commit a larger crime by robbing you a fine for motorcycle helmets won't deter them will it.
and i never said make robbery legal
[editline]22nd September 2011[/editline]
wait really?[/QUOTE]
Where did I say make robbery legal? I'm saying that having a law that says "Robbery is illegal" is utterly pointless. If someone is predisposed to rob and murder, laws against either aren't going to prevent them. There's an interesting philosophical idea behind this, where the law doesn't exist to say that "You can't do X, You can't wear a motorcycle helmet in public", but rather exists to say that "Doing X or wearing a motorcyle helmet in public is wrong". The helmet law exists so that the innocent people who are going in to do shopping wearing a motorcyle helmet aren't going to be held under any sort of suspicion. It's now far easier to identify the man who walks in with the intent of robbery.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32431165]If the idea is that it's used for robbery and shootings[/QUOTE]
might i add that it's an idea with 0% evidence behind it.
No but it gives shopkeepers a reason to call the cops when someone enters a store without taking that shit off.
Also thisispain I'm not answering that stupid question because it has no link whatsoever with the debate and you know it. The law isn't applying exclusively to Niqabs so we can't contest the usefulness of banning niqabs as they are not the subject of a specific law, they just fall under one of the categories by mere lack of luck.
[QUOTE=thisispain;32431195]might i add that it's an idea with 0% evidence behind it.[/QUOTE]
the whole debate was sparked up over someone robbing someone else wearing one.
[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8667330.stm[/url]
don't get me wrong, this public ban is horseshit, but there have been robberies by people wearing burqas etc.
[QUOTE=thisispain;32431195]might i add that it's an idea with 0% evidence behind it.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I've yet to see any credible data produced that suggests prior to this law that robberies by people wearing niqabs were prevalent.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;32431187]Where did I say make robbery legal?[/QUOTE]
nowhere
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;32431187]but rather exists to say that "Doing X or wearing a motorcyle helmet in public is wrong". [/QUOTE]
well i'm glad that you bring this up because it connects back to the original thread concept. it's bleeding obvious that they're just saying "being this kind of muslim is wrong".
but i totally agree.
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