I don't see why people think that there should be no kind of adaption whatsoever to the country you migrate to in terms of social and cultural norms. I mean why should migrants even attempt to learn the countrys language? And why should there be the tiniest demand for adaptation to the major culture? But yeah let's build ethnic and cultural enclaves in our contries where people live divided by cultures and norms which do obviously not fit together. That's a great way to go and build up racism and the likes.
And uh, this is a rather old article from 2004, but what's this about banning headscarves in public schools:
[url]http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A01E0D91331F930A3575AC0A9629C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all[/url]
[QUOTE=thisispain;32431574]suspicious-ness doesn't warrant the ban of a certain type of religious expression and the unfair punishment of innocent people.[/QUOTE]
Stop calling it ban of religious expression, it's not about that. If the law clearly said it was against religious people hiding their face it would be anti-religion, but here it's absolutely no the case.
[QUOTE=Folstream;32431584]I don't see why people think that there should be no kind of adaption whatsoever to the country you migrate to in terms of social and cultural norms. I mean why should migrants even attempt to learn the countrys language? And why should there be the tiniest demand for adaptation to the major culture? But yeah let's build ethnic and cultural enclaves in our contries where people live divided by cultures and norms which do obviously not fit together. That's a great way to go and build up racism and the likes.[/QUOTE]
What's your idea of integration? It sounds like making freedom of religion illegal, if you think this is the right way to go.
[editline]22nd September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32431594]Stop calling it ban of religious expression, it's not about that. If the law clearly said it was against religious people hiding their face it would be anti-religion, but here it's absolutely no the case.[/QUOTE]
So "the law" clearly said it, yet when the Prime Minister gave a speech about the ban he made no mention of crime or prevention of robberies?
[QUOTE=Folstream;32431584]I don't see why people think that there should be no kind of adaption whatsoever to the country you migrate to in terms of social and cultural norms.[/QUOTE]
because i don't give a fuck. the idea that there's one strict social and cultural norm in any country is nationalistic nonsense. france has ethnic minorities and cultures which in some cases pre-date french society itself. there are also many social and cultural norms within france itself based on where you are.
the point is to let people be who they are if it isn't hurting anyone and veils don't hurt anyone.
[editline]22nd September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32431594]Stop calling it ban of religious expression, it's not about that.[/QUOTE]
it is a de facto ban of a certain type of religious expression. i don't care what it's "about", i care about what it does.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32431590]And uh, this is a rather old article from 2004, but what's this about banning headscarves in public schools:
[url]http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A01E0D91331F930A3575AC0A9629C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all[/url][/QUOTE]
Oh yeah that. From beginning of school to highschool (the law stops at college) you can't wear any sort of religious symbol because it's considered promoting a religion (public schools are secular). It applies to both teachers and pupils and is only applicable to public schools.
Once again for some reason they focused on headscarves while the law touches any kind of obvious religious symbol (I still saw a lot of kids just wearing a cross or a david star, but hiding it under their shirt back when I was in early highschool), while it wasn't even discussed or evoked in France. That's just another example people are always focusing on muslims whenever something is touching Religion, for some reason.
[editline]22nd September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=thisispain;32431638]it is a de facto ban of a certain type of religious expression. i don't care what it's "about", i care about what it does.[/QUOTE]
There's still no reason to make an exception for religion in such a law.
[editline]22nd September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32431613]So "the law" clearly said it, yet when the Prime Minister gave a speech about the ban he made no mention of crime or prevention of robberies?[/QUOTE]
He made the stupid mistake of going the way medias wanted him to go.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32431670]Oh yeah that. From beginning of school to highschool (the law stops at college) you can't wear any sort of religious symbol because it's considered promoting a religion (public schools are secular). It applies to both teachers and pupils and is only applicable to public schools.
Once again for some reason they focused on headscarves while the law touches any kind of obvious religious symbol (I still saw a lot of kids just wearing a cross or a david star, but hiding it under their shirt back when I was in early highschool), while it wasn't even discussed or evoked in France. That's just another example people are always focusing on muslims whenever something is touching Religion, for some reason.[/quote]
Honestly I'd be more concerned about teachers being religiously biased in their teaching, not whether or not they wear a cross necklace or a headscarf. That is just shitty legislation.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32431670]He made the stupid mistake of going the way medias wanted him to go.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I don't buy that. I imagine if the Prime Minister can't even make clear the "true" intentions of a law he's supporting, that those "true" intentions aren't the real ones.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32431751]Honestly I'd be more concerned about teachers being religiously biased in their teaching, not whether or not they wear a cross necklace or a headscarf. That is just shitty legislation.[/QUOTE]
The law also prohibits any kind of religious promotion. A teacher can't go there and just said EVERYONE GO CHRISTIAN.
Recently a Christian French teacher showed an anti-abortion video clip to his students that showed dead babies being dismembered and burned. Bitch got some serious trouble and he just fucking deserved it.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32431795]The law also prohibits any kind of religious promotion. A teacher can't go there and just said EVERYONE GO CHRISTIAN.[/QUOTE]
Then require that they don't promote religion in their teachings, and keep it fair. However, wearing a headscarf or a cross necklace is nowhere near "promoting religion".
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32431613]What's your idea of integration? It sounds like making freedom of religion illegal, if you think this is the right way to go.
[editline]22nd September 2011[/editline]
So "the law" clearly said it, yet when the Prime Minister gave a speech about the ban he made no mention of crime or prevention of robberies?[/QUOTE]
I'm not gonna forbid Islam if that's what you think. But I think it's a perfectly reasonable demand on muslim migrants to not wear the burka/niqab. In any case it isn't even condoned by Islam to cover your face so I don't see the conflict here, it's more of a cultural thing. Covering your face is incredibly backwards and have in my opinion no place in a modern society. And the idea that a society can live with several cultures side by side in harmony doesn't work out, at least not when you compare the difference between parts of the Islamic and western culture for example. All you do is creating cultural and ethnic enclaves who have nothing in common whatsoever and might even conflict thus creating tensions and hate. I mean this shit happens right in front of me in my own city.
I'm French and I dislike the sight of walking eyes. Muslims are allowed to pray and live their religion as any other man in France, it's not like we're taking them away the right to do what gives them spiritual peace. The niqab is causing both security and cultural problems, France ain't the middle east.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32431856]Then require that they don't promote religion in their teachings, and keep it fair. However, wearing a headscarf or a cross necklace is nowhere near "promoting religion".[/QUOTE]
They are already prohibited to promote religion (they can still teach it, just neutrally), but it doesn't stop some to do it.
Also public school is purely secular, no religious symbol has to enter it.
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;32423436]yo if you actually fall for the "it's a safety risk" excuse you're pretty naive. "Safety risk" might very well be a legitimate reason for prohibiting them (well not really), but that's not why they were prohibited. They were prohibited as an expression of popular anti-muslim, anti-immigrant sentiment in france and "it's a safety risk" was the best excuse for what was essentially an act of political spite.[/QUOTE]
The official statement is that it is because of safety and everything else is your interpretation. Any total masking is forbidden or at least deemed dodgy and a religious claim.is no excuse for that.
[QUOTE=Folstream;32431893]All you do is creating cultural and ethnic enclaves who have nothing in common whatsoever and might even conflict thus creating tensions and hate. I mean this shit happens right in front of me in my own city.[/QUOTE]
right and using the state to mandate and discourage certain people is creating a bastion of love and acceptance.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32431856]Then require that they don't promote religion in their teachings, and keep it fair. However, wearing a headscarf or a cross necklace is nowhere near "promoting religion".[/QUOTE]
They don't? You sound like you know exactly what's going on in our schools, please tell me more.
[QUOTE=Killuah;32431932]The official statement is that it is because of safety and everything else is your interpretation. Any total masking is forbidden or at least deemed dodgy and a religious claim.is no excuse for that.[/QUOTE]
Of course it's for safety, France has been huge on the safety of muslims lately
really nice guys all of em
[QUOTE=Zeke129;32431956]Of course it's for safety, France has been huge on the safety of muslims lately
really nice guys all of em[/QUOTE]
Thanks I appreciate that :downs:
[editline]22nd September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Killuah;32431932]The official statement is that it is because of safety and everything else is your interpretation. Any total masking is forbidden or at least deemed dodgy and a religious claim.is no excuse for that.[/QUOTE]
Holy fuck that's one who understood it !
THANKS !
Germany has a ban of full face cover too. And sure police can not enforce it everywhere but it's a psychological factor too.
[editline]22nd September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zeke129;32431956]Of course it's for safety, France has been huge on the safety of muslims lately
really nice guys all of em[/QUOTE]
I didn't say safety of muslims why did you quote me?
[QUOTE=Angry Frenchman;32431953]They don't? You sound like you know exactly what's going on in our schools, please tell me more.[/QUOTE]
Oh really, so how would wearing a headscarf promote religion?
[QUOTE=SigmaLambda;32422697]i think it's a commendable act to violate a law with which you disagree
[/QUOTE]
You're right. I'm gonna go shoot up some H in front of the police station, in my opinion it should be legal.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32432147]Oh really, so how would wearing a headscarf promote religion?[/QUOTE]
The term headscarf is wrong, it's really if you wear a hijab or something clearly Religious.
Also I didn't say wearing one is promoting religion, I said promoting religion is also forbidden.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32432415]The term headscarf is wrong, it's really if you wear a hijab or something clearly Religious.
Also I didn't say wearing one is promoting religion, I said promoting religion is also forbidden.[/QUOTE]
If wearing the hijab or star of david is not "promoting religion", then why is it illegal in schools?
[QUOTE=thisispain;32431947]right and using the state to mandate and discourage certain people is creating a bastion of love and acceptance.[/QUOTE]
If you look at Swedish immigration in different times it certainly does even if nothing was discouraged. During the 50's and 60' a lot of Finns and labour immigrants from former Yugoslavia immigrated to Sweden and mosto f them have successfully been assimilated into the Swedish society with it's culture and norms. There is no Finnish or Yugoslav enclaves in Sweden and today you couldn't notice the difference between them and someone of Swedish heritage. Compared to todays immigraton from mainly the Middle East and Africa cultural and ethnic enclaves have built up because of no demands whatsoever on the immigrants, muslim or not. This has resulted in areas where criminality and Islamic extremism is flourishing. You act like every single culture on earth is equal in terms of good values and rules, they are however not.
Seriously whats with the need to cover your face for I mean goddamn it's not much to ask.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;32432483]If wearing the hijab or star of david is not "promoting religion", then why is it illegal in schools?[/QUOTE]
Because it's a secular place, you're not supposed to wear any sort of religious symbol there.
Especially when you're 6 and obviously haven't chosen to wear it
[QUOTE=Folstream;32432580]If you look at Swedish immigration in different times it certainly does even if nothing was discouraged. During the 50's and 60' a lot of Finns and labour immigrants from former Yugoslavia immigrated to Sweden and mosto f them have successfully been assimilated into the Swedish society with it's culture and norms. There is no Finnish or Yugoslav enclaves in Sweden and today you couldn't notice the difference between them and someone of Swedish heritage. [/QUOTE]
hmm and that has nothing to do with the fact that finland was once part of the finnish empire and that swedish-speaking autonomous territories exist in finland?
[editline]22nd September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Folstream;32432580]You act like every single culture on earth is equal in terms of good values and rules, they are however not.[/QUOTE]
i'm utterly uninterested in what the government deems is a good culture or a bad culture.
When you move into a country you have to abide my some of its most important aspects. A member of the Suri tribe moving in France won't be allowed to run around naked just because that's how things go where he and his ancestors used to live. This doesn't mean you have to completely assimilate yourself to it, just that you have to be smart enough to keep only the smaller aspects of your culture and keep the most important to practice with other members of the same culture in organized meetings or at home, in privacy.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;32432811]When you move into a country you have to abide my some of its most important aspects.[/QUOTE]
only if it doesn't hurt anyone. the only reason we don't allow people to run around naked is because we have the assumption for whatever reason that nudity is a negative thing to our children.
am i really so weird if i say i don't give a fuck about people wearing veils and no-one should unless they have a stick up their ass?
[editline]22nd September 2011[/editline]
ban all right-wing groups in france because they have been far more damaging to society than veils.
[QUOTE=thisispain;32432691]hmm and that has nothing to do with the fact that finland was once part of the finnish empire and that swedish-speaking autonomous territories exist in finland?
[editline]22nd September 2011[/editline]
i'm utterly uninterested in what the government deems is a good culture or a bad culture.[/QUOTE]
You missed Yugoslavia there (that's approx 150.000 people, 2nd largest immigrant group), and the Swedish speaking areas of Finland are minorities. My own grandfather emigrated from Finland in the 50's and he learned Swedish here in Sweden.
So you're perfectly fine with having your country having values which considers women to be of less value than men and having every woman covering their entire bodies? You're okay with having stuff like homophobia widespread in your country. Alright the US has partly different views on homosexuality than Sweden but we pretty much import these values right now into our country which is quite homo-friendly. You're fine with cultural enclaves resulting in tensions and hate instead of assimilation which obviously has worked way better than the current ways. I'm for a multicultural world, not a multicultural society.
[QUOTE=Folstream;32432990]
So you're perfectly fine with having your country having values which considers women to be of less value than men and having every woman covering their entire bodies? [/QUOTE]
eh i'm a pro-choice feminist.
[QUOTE=Folstream;32432990]You're okay with having stuff like homophobia widespread in your country. [/QUOTE]
telling other people their culture is wrong isn't going to stop homophobia. i think you're confusing the issue.
and yes i'm pro-multiculturalism because i'm not an asshole and hate things i don't know anything about.
[QUOTE=thisispain;32432947]only if it doesn't hurt anyone. the only reason we don't allow people to run around naked is because we have the assumption for whatever reason that nudity is a negative thing to our children.[/QUOTE]
Nah, that's not really the only reason. I don't want to see my neighbor's wiener on my way to the drug store. That's decency for you there and it's been here for a hell of a time now.
[QUOTE=thisispain;32432947]ban all right-wing groups in france because they have been far more damaging to society than veils.[/QUOTE]
US Democrats could be compared to a French right-wing group. Considering republicans and tea-party are even worse you should ban every political group in America.
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