• Mao Zedong made mistakes, says Xi Jinping
    59 replies, posted
In time, the Chinese will come to realize how Mao abused them. This is a step forward. I honestly have a lot of high hopes for China, I'm almost certain that they'll become a model nation without human rights violations and become a forefront of scientific progress in the near future. But to compare George Washington to him is ridiculous. 46,000 forcibly relocated in the Trail of Tears, the worst ethnic cleansing the US engaged in, does not even compare to that of the 60,000,000+ people that Mao [U]killed[/U]. That wasn't even George Washington, that was Andrew Jackson. This is kinda like calling Bush or Obama, Hitler, when nothing the US has done comes even close. The Spanish killed millions of Native Americans in their conquests, yet nobody brings them up.
[QUOTE=Griffster26;43320868]He kicked people apart [sp]ooh[/sp][/QUOTE] He once held an opponent's wife's hand.
[QUOTE=Disseminate;43321084] *Happy birthday pictures* 生日快乐毛泽东!![/QUOTE] I think you spent too much time in China. There is nothing happy about Mao. I don't even know of any Chinese people who would actually defend the guy other than those people who keep buying the thousands of those silly golden Mao statues.
While this is a good step, I feel Xi should start recognizing Zhou Enlai more for the amazing help he gave the country in keeping Mao from going crazy with his "reforms". A lot of people say that Zhou was what kept the Cultural Revolution and Great Leap Forward from completely spiraling out of control. He actually was the guy who also kept the Forbidden City from being destroyed. Man, things would be so much better in China if he had been in charge. He was a great mix of Confucian values with a modern twist.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43320821]China had a population in the hundreds of millions. The USA had a population in the hundreds of thousands, so it's inevitable he can't kill 70 to 100 million people (especially when not that many even existed in that entire continent). As for torturing: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarring_and_feathering[/url][/QUOTE] today I learned washington was actually pretty shit
[QUOTE=Megafan;43320485]I'd say George Washington made a few 'mistakes' of his own, but perhaps he wasn't working with quite the same population density as Mao. Founding leaders tend to be not too great when you look at them critically. [editline]26th December 2013[/editline] Can you say the American government cares about American people, or the Canadian government about you? It's a matter of degrees, surely.[/QUOTE] I don't agree with Mao's policies, nor Maoism and Marxist-leninism in general, but Megafan's got a point. Most leaders have plenty of blood on their hands. Doesn't make it right, nor does it make it any less significant though.
Admitting the mistakes of the Glorious Mao? That's a decapitatin'
Why did this thread turn into an attack the u.s thread.
[QUOTE=redBadger;43324148]Why did this thread turn into an attack the u.s thread.[/QUOTE] Because the Communist Party of China is apparently not as bad as the US government when it comes to its own citizens.
[QUOTE=Xystus234;43322644]46,000 forcibly relocated in the Trail of Tears, the worst ethnic cleansing the US engaged in, does not even compare to that of the 60,000,000+ people that Mao [U]killed[/U].[/quote] That's because 60 million people didn't live in America at the time. The actions themselves speak pretty well because a government that is capable of doing ethnic cleansing to a small group of people would also be capable of doing it to a large group, if only stopped by logistical capabilities. [quote]That wasn't even George Washington, that was Andrew Jackson. This is kinda like calling Bush or Obama, Hitler, when nothing the US has done comes even close. The Spanish killed millions of Native Americans in their conquests, yet nobody brings them up.[/QUOTE] People bring that up all the time though. Loads of Amerindians initially died from disease, and then the rest were put to work in plantations or mines (with a lucky few dastardly fellows along with the old elite working their way up into the colonial administration).
Oh, Stalin and Hitler also made mistakes. [I]Little [/I]mistakes that costed....a couple million people their lives. But it's nothing more than mistakes, right? [QUOTE]Loads of Amerindians initially died from disease,[/QUOTE] JESUS CHRIST Do not begin the "Disease vs sword" debate because it will wont fucking end as there are a shitload of papers defending both positions and giving them strong arguments. I have seen it before, I have seen it before in the Paradox Interactive Forums and its awful.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;43325237]Oh, Stalin and Hitler also made mistakes. [I]Little [/I]mistakes that costed....a couple million people their lives. But it's nothing more than mistakes, right? JESUS CHRIST Do not begin the "Disease vs sword" debate because it will wont fucking end as there are a shitload of papers defending both positions and giving them strong arguments. I have seen it before, I have seen it before in the Paradox Interactive Forums and its awful.[/QUOTE] Disease doing a lot of the killing is pretty much undisputed I thought?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43325415]Disease doing a lot of the killing is pretty much undisputed I thought?[/QUOTE] Oh no, there is a lot of debate going on...there was this user in paradox forums who made a pretty strong case agaisnt disease killing 99% (Obvious exageration) of the native population and he cited a couple of historians. I will try to find it and post it here even though it has nothing to do with Mr Mao Zedong :v: EDIT:[url]http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?625281-Avoiding-Arbitrary-Penalties-and-Euro-Centrism/page53&[/url] 55 pages of pure history madness.
[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;43325509]Oh no, there is a lot of debate going on...there was this user in paradox forums who made a pretty strong case agaisnt disease killing 99% (Obvious exageration) of the native population and he cited a couple of historians. I will try to find it and post it here even though it has nothing to do with Mr Mao Zedong :v: EDIT:[url]http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?625281-Avoiding-Arbitrary-Penalties-and-Euro-Centrism/page53&[/url] 55 pages of pure history madness.[/QUOTE] [quote]Nearly all scholars now believe that widespread epidemic disease, to which the natives had no prior exposure or resistance, was the overwhelming cause of the massive population decline of the Native Americans.[/quote] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples#Depopulation_from_disease[/url]
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43325415]Disease doing a lot of the killing is pretty much undisputed I thought?[/QUOTE] Oh yeah, we Europeans never butchered more than a few million people. Most of the death toll was purely accidental, we're hardly guilty of anything!
[QUOTE=Psychokitten;43326329]Oh yeah, we Europeans never butchered more than a few million people. Most of the death toll was purely accidental, we're hardly guilty of anything![/QUOTE] I'm not sure what this is arguing. Even if no Europeans went over apart from like a few sick fishermen you'd still get tens of millions dying from diseases and the complete collapse of multitudes of empires, states, chiefdoms, ethnicities vanishing, languages being eradicated, and general widespread regression due to the collapse of their respective economies, agrarian systems, and trade networks.
[quote]But he added: "Revolutionary leaders are not gods, but human beings. (We) cannot worship them like gods or refuse to allow people to point out and correct their errors just because they are great.[/quote] wow, thats...ballsy, but a great step forward
[QUOTE=Sableye;43326480]wow, thats...ballsy, but a great step forward[/QUOTE] You mean a Great Leap Forward.
genocidal maniacs make mistakes?
[QUOTE=Sableye;43326480]wow, thats...ballsy, but a great step forward[/QUOTE] The leader is pretty terrible.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;43327950]The leader is pretty terrible.[/QUOTE] What are you talking about? I think Xi has been doing a great job in steering the country. Not necessarily as far as personal freedoms go but he's cracking down on corruption, consolidated his power to give him mandate for future reforms, already passed the loosening of one child policy, shut down labor camps, and just generally doing more shit than Hu did in his entire term. I don't know what they decided at the third plenum but expect good economic reforms that'll help the country. [editline]27th December 2013[/editline] Wait, were you talking about Mao or Xi?
[QUOTE=Smooth Jazz;43328019]What are you talking about? I think Xi has been doing a great job in steering the country. Not necessarily as far as personal freedoms go but he's cracking down on corruption, consolidated his power to give him mandate for future reforms, already passed the loosening of one child policy, shut down labor camps, and just generally doing more shit than Hu did in his entire term. I don't know what they decided at the third plenum but expect good economic reforms that'll help the country.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't believe what the Chinese State media tells you, which is the source for western news outlets use for their source.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;43328197]I wouldn't believe what the Chinese State media tells you, which is the source for western news outlets use for their source.[/QUOTE] What's so bad about him exactly
[QUOTE=Jund;43328245]What's so bad about him exactly[/QUOTE] He's China's president.
[QUOTE=Swebonny;43328270]He's China's president.[/QUOTE] Oh hawhaw [editline]27th December 2013[/editline] Doing this goes against doc no. 9 so I don't think he's going to follow that road
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;43328197]I wouldn't believe what the Chinese State media tells you, which is the source for western news outlets use for their source.[/QUOTE] Well when it comes to things about arresting corrupt officials, that's not exactly something the Chinese government can falsify unless Bo Xilai's trial didn't happen after all. Not to mention guys like Zhou Yongkang, former security chief, and smaller officials. Also, China isn't some complete black hole when it comes to communication. If Xi declares relaxing of One Child or closing down of labor camps and he actually lied, that gets out through things like Weibo or just plain old blogs. He also came out of his third plenum publicly saying promising economic reforms. If he doesn't follow that through, people aren't just going to forget. You may not trust the Chinese state media but there are certain things that it's unrealistic for them to make up or fake. Did China also fake landing a rover on the moon?
[QUOTE=Smooth Jazz;43328376]Well when it comes to things about arresting corrupt officials, that's not exactly something the Chinese government can falsify unless Bo Xilai's trial didn't happen after all. Not to mention guys like Zhou Yongkang, former security chief, and smaller officials. Also, China isn't some complete black hole when it comes to communication. If Xi declares relaxing of One Child or closing down of labor camps and he actually lied, that gets out through things like Weibo or just plain old blogs. He also came out of his third plenum publicly saying promising economic reforms. If he doesn't follow that through, people aren't just going to forget. You may not trust the Chinese state media but there are certain things that it's unrealistic for them to make up or fake. Did China also fake landing a rover on the moon?[/QUOTE] I'm not sure if he was serious.
[QUOTE=Swebonny;43328394]I'm not sure if he was serious.[/QUOTE] Yeah, I didn't think about whether he was serious. Regardless, this China defending by me is probably going to look bad when I finally apply for US citizenship. I might have made a huge mistake.
[QUOTE=Smooth Jazz;43328587]Yeah, I didn't think about whether he was serious. Regardless, this China defending by me is probably going to look bad when I finally apply for US citizenship. I might have made a huge mistake.[/QUOTE] I don't see why. There's millions of Chinese people on the west coast that have citizenship and maintained being a part of the CCP. No one cares what you support here.
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