i think the denezins of facepunch need a crash course on debating
every thread i read that comes to an agrument reads like a bunch of ten year olds yelling over each other
[QUOTE=Hamsterjuice;29438727]i think the denezins of facepunch need a crash course on debating
every thread i read that comes to an agrument reads like a bunch of ten year olds yelling over each other[/QUOTE]
it really comes down to one side saying that they're objectively right and can't be wrong and the other side doing the exact same thing.
and real debate on facepunch doesn't work because even if you know how to debate(I do), the opponent does not and won't likely care to and would rather say what he has to say and full well believe he can't be wrong because he can't be wrong
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;29438726][b]the world does not revolve around you[/b]
You do not have the right to not be offended
you do not have the right to not see what you don't want to see, you do have the right to look the fuck away though.[/QUOTE]
oh okay i'll just ignore it completely and let one of the formerly best FPSes go to complete shit
[QUOTE=Hamsterjuice;29438727]i think the denezins of facepunch need a crash course on debating
every thread i read that comes to an agrument reads like a bunch of ten year olds yelling over each other[/QUOTE]
Because one side refuses to listen to reason and then it just becomes a downhill battle of who can make who slam their head against a wall to death first.
[QUOTE=ThePutty;29438721]It's only a choice if you decide to use it or not. It's not a choice when other players use it, what are you gonna do? Ban them? Ask nicely to stop? Start your own server with stupid restrictions and don't ever join another one?[/QUOTE]
If you don't play why are you complaining so much
[QUOTE=Tetracycline;29424984]Why? Do you have no friends to play multiplayer with? Why do you guys hate multiplayer? How does that even make any fucking sense? It's better to have some features than not have them, it's not like Valve is going to skimp on the singleplayer just because they're making a multiplayer[/QUOTE]
why u post so bad
[QUOTE=ThePutty;29438735]oh okay i'll just ignore it completely and let one of the formerly best FPSes go to complete shit[/QUOTE]
nothing is really wrong with the game
[editline]26th April 2011[/editline]
you're just approaching it the wrong way
[editline]26th April 2011[/editline]
the way you don't like
[QUOTE=Swilly;29438738]Because one side refuses to listen to reason and then it just becomes a downhill battle of who can make who slam their head against a wall to death first.[/QUOTE]
i think both sides of this argument are guilty of this atm
[QUOTE=Lizard Of Guilt;29438739]If you don't play why are you complaining so much[/QUOTE]
if you take away something that's great and then pump it full of crap you're going to complain
whether you think it's crap or not, whatever, but TF2 is undeniably changed
[QUOTE=ThePutty;29438735]oh okay i'll just ignore it completely and let one of the formerly best FPSes go to complete shit[/QUOTE]
it's your choice because your pussy gets fucked up when you see other people making choices.
you really should evaluate what matters to you when you're this worked up over some choices other people are making of what their digital characters look like
[editline]25th April 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=ThePutty;29438754]if you take away something that's great and then pump it full of crap you're going to complain[/QUOTE]
this is your opinion.
not a fact.
get that through your head.
you are mashing you head repeatedly on the fact the artstyle is ruined even though the game can still be fantastically engaging.
[QUOTE=Hamsterjuice;29438753]i think both sides of this argument are guilty of this atm[/QUOTE]
I'd have to agree.
[editline]26th April 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=ThePutty;29438754]if you take away something that's great and then pump it full of crap you're going to complain
whether you think it's crap or not, whatever, but TF2 is undeniably changed[/QUOTE]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuYe_mgPJqU[/media]
Oh look! I don't see any pretty colors!
[QUOTE=Swilly;29438690][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbZOeGyd61E[/media]
Orly?[/QUOTE]
not a representation of what tf2 play(s)(-ed) at all.
as tf2 started out everything had set counters and styles; the game was as far from "insanity" as you could get. few variables, just mastery of one or two different forms of play per class. the addition of unlocks (while keeping the community alive, which is great) mottled this completely. now, each character had 2 (and then later, three) possible weapons [I]per loadout [/I]some of which completely broke the fourth wall of TF2 and some which completely changed the way the game was played and the roles of the characters. this changed competitive play completely.
again, this is not exactly a bad thing - i don't like how it changed it, but many people do, so it doesn't bother me. I got a solid 700 hours out of TF2 in about 2 years, i [I]definitely [/I]got my money's worth. as valve started changing everything about, the gameplay and visual simplicity changed completely, and the game didn't play the same, so I stopped.
[QUOTE=ThePutty;29438754]if you take away something that's great and then pump it full of crap you're going to complain
whether you think it's crap or not, whatever, but TF2 is undeniably changed[/QUOTE]
sure yeah
Is anyone arguing that it's the exact same game that came out of the orange box?
On the actual topic of the thread though, mutliplayer in all of Valve's games will only be a good thing if they do it right, and tie it correctly into the story
Brickinhead tell me how TF2 has a minimalistic art style
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;29438771]not a representation of what tf2 play(s)(-ed) at all.
as tf2 started out everything had set counters and styles; the game was as far from "insanity" as you could get. few variables, just mastery of one or two different forms of play per class. the addition of unlocks (while keeping the community alive, which is great) mottled this completely. now, each character had 2 (and then later, three) possible weapons [I]per loadout [/I]some of which completely broke the fourth wall of TF2 and some which completely changed the way the game was played and the roles of the characters. this changed competitive play completely.
again, this is not exactly a bad thing - i don't like how it changed it, but many people do, so it doesn't bother me. I got a solid 700 hours out of TF2 in about 2 years, i [I]definitely [/I]got my money's worth. as valve started changing everything about, the gameplay and visual simplicity changed completely, and the game didn't play the same, so I stopped.[/QUOTE]
you know man, I want to give you a heart just because you recognize it's just your opinion of the game, and that it's only "ruined" for you.
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;29438771]not a representation of what tf2 play(s)(-ed) at all.
as tf2 started out everything had set counters and styles; the game was as far from "insanity" as you could get. few variables, just mastery of one or two different forms of play per class. the addition of unlocks (while keeping the community alive, which is great) mottled this completely. now, each character had 2 (and then later, three) possible weapons [I]per loadout [/I]some of which completely broke the fourth wall of TF2 and some which completely changed the way the game was played and the roles of the characters. this changed competitive play completely.
again, this is not exactly a bad thing - i don't like how it changed it, but many people do, so it doesn't bother me. I got a solid 700 hours out of TF2 in about 2 years, i [I]definitely [/I]got my money's worth. as valve started changing everything about, the gameplay and visual simplicity changed completely, and the game didn't play the same, so I stopped.[/QUOTE]
Its a representation of the art style. The video was used as a representation of how the characters were and how they got to the point they are at now. I never said anything about the gameplay. Stop putting words in my mouth.
That has nothing to do with the gameplay.
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;29438771]this changed competitive play completely.
[/QUOTE]
All the comp servers I see usually block out weapons they feel are unbalanced/annoying, so not really
[QUOTE=Lizard Of Guilt;29438781]Brickinhead tell me how TF2 has a minimalistic art style[/QUOTE]
[B]had.[/B]
simple maps: look at dustbowl, gravelpit, 2fort, granary, and well. the most those maps had going on was a train popping through the middle of the map and killing someone (which obviously always resulted in hilarity). all maintained a desert setting, and utilized few props in the maps, it was mostly based around geometry. I'm hardly an expert on the maps now, but a ton of them are very visually interesting and filled with flair. The addition of the community maps is really what did it - some of them were very fun, and were great as custom maps, but they were designed to be [I]interesting [/I]and [I]stand out[/I] - something that the stock maps didn't do at all, because the focus was on the combat and identifying enemies. Think of TF2 as a painting of a landscape; nothing is overwhelmingly specific, because that detracts from the ability to look at it as a whole.
as far as character design and minimalism goes, it was in the way the weapons and the color schemes of the characters. There were two colors, red and blue; while this hasn't changed as far as identifying enemies goes, the addition of paints and different whacky hats has added a [I]lot [/I]to the game that wasn't present before. the character designs weren't whacky, they visually were very drab and distinct in shape. look at other games - characters have a shitload of stuff packed onto their bodies, high texture and numerous things bouncing around. the most that the characters in tf2 had was a bandolier or a satchel over their coats / shirts.
weapons didn't really get crazy. Shotguns, miniguns, rocket launchers and flamethrowers - nothing that was particularly out of the ordinary at all, really. With the addition of unlocks, you have crazy shit like a sniper rifle that launches urine and a bow and arrow and a robot arm, three variations of a flamethrower, a pistol that's actually a shotgun (ok thanks for that one valve) etc. The simplicity of the weapons was broken down significantly.
i'm not going to lie, i liked hats when they first came out; they added new life into the game, and there was a great spark to what they had because they were so rare. but as they became more common, and people demanded more hats and such, the hats became whackier and whackier and further away from the way that tf2 was designed to look, and the weapons brought it further than how it was designed to play.
[editline]26th April 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Swilly;29438791]Its a representation of the art style. The video was used as a representation of how the characters were and how they got to the point they are at now. I never said anything about the gameplay. Stop putting words in my mouth.
That has nothing to do with the gameplay.[/QUOTE]
wait so then what's your point that video has hardly any sort of whacky art style
are you just bringing out a video to show me that you've watched it or what
what's the point of it
the reason everyone liked the videos in the first place is that they were entirely separate from the gameplay experience and had little to no bearing on the game itself, and offered something [I]completely [/I]different to the core game. as that barrier between the game and the extra-game media broke down, that's where a lot of people stopped liking tf2. to comment on it further it was that TF2 - as it started - focused on the combat. It plays like a [I]fighting game[/I], that's really the only way I can describe it. The focus wasn't on the backgrounds of the characters, why they were where they were, any of that. It was on the fighting. that's what made the videos interesting, and the fact that valve kept them separate was cool. when valve started getting heavy with the "lore" of the game they had gone past the point at which i personally believe they'd become too involved with it.
ps i don't want anyone to think that I hate tf2 or anything and that I think people are stupid for liking it now, I just don't like what it's turned into and it's not my cup of tea; it's changed from what it was which disappoints me, but I think that the in game store is a great moneymaker for valve and if the people want it then let them have it. it's upsetting to see that the store is spreading to their other games that are "singleplayer" though.
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;29438867][B]had.[/B]
simple maps: look at dustbowl, gravelpit, 2fort, granary, and well. the most those maps had going on was a train popping through the middle of the map and killing someone (which obviously always resulted in hilarity). all maintained a desert setting, and utilized few props in the maps, it was mostly based around geometry. I'm hardly an expert on the maps now, but a ton of them are very visually interesting and filled with flair. The addition of the community maps is really what did it - some of them were very fun, and were great as custom maps, but they were designed to be [I]interesting [/I]and [I]stand out[/I] - something that the stock maps didn't do at all, because the focus was on the combat and identifying enemies. Think of TF2 as a painting of a landscape; nothing is overwhelmingly specific, because that detracts from the ability to look at it as a whole.
as far as character design and minimalism goes, it was in the way the weapons and the color schemes of the characters. There were two colors, red and blue; while this hasn't changed as far as identifying enemies goes, the addition of paints and different whacky hats has added a [I]lot [/I]to the game that wasn't present before. the character designs weren't whacky, they visually were very drab and distinct in shape. look at other games - characters have a shitload of stuff packed onto their bodies, high texture and numerous things bouncing around. the most that the characters in tf2 had was a bandolier or a satchel over their coats / shirts.
weapons didn't really get crazy. Shotguns, miniguns, rocket launchers and flamethrowers - nothing that was particularly out of the ordinary at all, really. With the addition of unlocks, you have crazy shit like a sniper rifle that launches urine and a bow and arrow and a robot arm, three variations of a flamethrower, a pistol that's actually a shotgun (ok thanks for that one valve) etc. The simplicity of the weapons was broken down significantly.
i'm not going to lie, i liked hats when they first came out; they added new life into the game, and there was a great spark to what they had because they were so rare. but as they became more common, and people demanded more hats and such, the hats became whackier and whackier and further away from the way that tf2 was designed to look, and the weapons brought it further than how it was designed to play.
[editline]26th April 2011[/editline]
wait so then what's your point that video has hardly any sort of whacky art style
are you just bringing out a video to show me that you've watched it or what
what's the point of it
the reason everyone liked the videos in the first place is that they were entirely separate from the gameplay experience and had little to no bearing on the game itself, and offered something [I]completely [/I]different to the core game. as that barrier between the game and the extra-game media broke down, that's where a lot of people stopped liking tf2.[/QUOTE]
You said I was wrong for saying it based off insanity. :v:
That I knew nothing about it.
[QUOTE=Swilly;29438929]You said I was wrong for saying it based off insanity. :v:
That I knew nothing about it.[/QUOTE]
oh you're just saying that he was insane? ok lol
i'm talking about gameplay and visual style, neither of them were really insane in anyway. the metagame valve made was crazy, yeah. and then when the metagame started heavily influencing the game, you had the addition of insane unlocks (i mention this because that's what you were talking about, the visual style and the weapon design being whacky) that while interesting detracted from what tf2 started as and changed it into something new.
[editline]26th April 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;29438689]Right because you have an objective view of what things are[/QUOTE]
yes i do
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;29438949]oh you're just saying that he was insane? ok lol
i'm talking about gameplay and visual style, neither of them are really insane in anyway. the metagame valve made was crazy, yeah.
[editline]26th April 2011[/editline]
yes i do[/QUOTE]
nope
[url]http://www.monstersandcritics.com/gaming/pc/news/article_1309466.php/Valve_won_t_charge_for_downloadable_content[/url]
[quote]"The crowbar-centric company announced it has no intention of charging for downloadables in games such as Counter-Strike and Team Fortress 2. Designer Robin Walker explains their logic saying: "You buy the product, you get the content ... We make more money because more people buy it, not because we try and nickel-and-dime the same customers."[/quote]
We all know the only reason they don't want to make singleplayer games anymore is because they can't add a store to those.
Alyx doesn't give a shit about your hat.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;29438963]nope[/QUOTE]
tell me how i'm not being objective
[editline]26th April 2011[/editline]
i'm stating a fact: the game has changed
how is this subjective
like at all
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;29438949]oh you're just saying that he was insane? ok lol
i'm talking about gameplay and visual style, neither of them were really insane in anyway. the metagame valve made was crazy, yeah. and then when the metagame started heavily influencing the game, you had the addition of insane unlocks (i mention this because that's what you were talking about, the visual style and the weapon design being whacky) that while interesting detracted from what tf2 started as and changed it into something new.
[editline]26th April 2011[/editline]
yes i do[/QUOTE]
:sigh:
[editline]26th April 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;29438982]tell me how i'm not being objective
[editline]26th April 2011[/editline]
i'm stating a fact: the game has changed
how is this subjective
like at all[/QUOTE]
Because some could say it hasn't changed. In fact I will say that because even with the hats and new weapons, there are still recognizable counters to different methods. The hats, while crazy, still fit the minimalistic art style and are rarely over colorized by users (Hell some equipment won't accept colors.)
I've seen the same tactics being used since I had been playing from the beginning.
I'm saying its subjective because the game is still the same game from before, its just been built upon to keep people interested in that original game.
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;29438982]tell me how i'm not being objective
[editline]26th April 2011[/editline]
i'm stating a fact: the game has changed
how is this subjective
like at all[/QUOTE]
in that sense, yes, that's a fact
but what those changes mean is entirely subjective to the player.
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;29438867][B]had.[/B]
simple maps: look at dustbowl, gravelpit, 2fort, granary, and well. the most those maps had going on was a train popping through the middle of the map and killing someone (which obviously always resulted in hilarity). all maintained a desert setting, and utilized few props in the maps, it was mostly based around geometry. I'm hardly an expert on the maps now, but a ton of them are very visually interesting and filled with flair. The addition of the community maps is really what did it - some of them were very fun, and were great as custom maps, but they were designed to be [I]interesting [/I]and [I]stand out[/I] - something that the stock maps didn't do at all, because the focus was on the combat and identifying enemies. Think of TF2 as a painting of a landscape; nothing is overwhelmingly specific, because that detracts from the ability to look at it as a whole.
as far as character design and minimalism goes, it was in the way the weapons and the color schemes of the characters. There were two colors, red and blue; while this hasn't changed as far as identifying enemies goes, the addition of paints and different whacky hats has added a [I]lot [/I]to the game that wasn't present before. the character designs weren't whacky, they visually were very drab and distinct in shape. look at other games - characters have a shitload of stuff packed onto their bodies, high texture and numerous things bouncing around. the most that the characters in tf2 had was a bandolier or a satchel over their coats / shirts.
weapons didn't really get crazy. Shotguns, miniguns, rocket launchers and flamethrowers - nothing that was particularly out of the ordinary at all, really. With the addition of unlocks, you have crazy shit like a sniper rifle that launches urine and a bow and arrow and a robot arm, three variations of a flamethrower, a pistol that's actually a shotgun (ok thanks for that one valve) etc. The simplicity of the weapons was broken down significantly.
i'm not going to lie, i liked hats when they first came out; they added new life into the game, and there was a great spark to what they had because they were so rare. but as they became more common, and people demanded more hats and such, the hats became whackier and whackier and further away from the way that tf2 was designed to look, and the weapons brought it further than how it was designed to play.[/QUOTE]
Simplistic design, not art style.
[QUOTE=Swilly;29438995]:sigh:[/quote]
use your words what are you trying to convey aaH
[quote]Because some could say it hasn't changed. In fact I will say that because even with the hats and new weapons, there are still recognizable counters to different methods. The hats, while crazy, still fit the minimalistic art style and are rarely over colorized by users (Hell some equipment won't accept colors.)
I've seen the same tactics being used since I had been playing from the beginning.
I'm saying its subjective because the game is still the same game from before, its just been built upon to keep people interested in that original game.[/QUOTE]
yes, there are most certainly counters to the different methods, but what I said before was TF2 was based off simplicity - which it was in the beginning. tf2 now has a ton of variables that mottle this. for instance: the soldier now has 12 unique weapons with a possible combination of 60 different loadouts for one class. These weapons will change how often the soldier rocket jumps, if he heals when he hits you, etc - these are all things that remained constant on release, and the primary "combat" was between the skill of you and your opponent - who can move better and who can shoot better, and who knows the appropriate way to deal with a certain tactic / maneuver.
[editline]26th April 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;29439025]in that sense, yes, that's a fact
but what those changes mean is entirely subjective to the player.[/QUOTE]
yeah and I've reiterated that numerous times
i am fine if people like the game but to claim that it hasn't changed fundamentally is silly
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;29439072]use your words what are you trying to convey aaH
yes, there are most certainly counters to the different methods, but what I said before was TF2 was based off simplicity - which it was in the beginning. tf2 now has a ton of variables that mottle this. for instance: the soldier now has 12 unique weapons with a possible combination of 60 different loadouts for one class. These weapons will change how often the soldier rocket jumps, if he heals when he hits you, etc - these are all things that remained constant on release, and the primary "combat" was between the skill of you and your opponent - who can move better and who can shoot better, and who knows the appropriate way to deal with a certain tactic / maneuver.
[editline]26th April 2011[/editline]
yeah and I've reiterated that numerous times
i am fine if people like the game but to claim that it hasn't changed fundamentally is silly[/QUOTE]
So you think it doesn't deal with skill any more?
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