• Journey into the ‘stabbing intifada’
    58 replies, posted
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49421173]Sure I support Israel more than I support Hamas but acting, and ignoring, the things Israel has done with a fully fledged government behind it is wrong. Apparently acknowledging that both sides are bad is wrong to you people because somehow you believe in life, there really is a "Good guy".[/QUOTE] I'm not saying these things should be ignored, I'm saying these things don't matter, or at least should not matter until the conflict is over.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;49421221]I'm not saying these things should be ignored, I'm saying these things don't matter, or at least should not matter until the conflict is over.[/QUOTE] You're being too extreme. They DO matter, and the Israeli far-right should and needs to be challenged. This is, among other things, important for Israel to remain as the moral actor.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49421276]You're being too extreme. They DO matter, and the Israeli far-right should and needs to be challenged. This is, among other things, important for Israel to remain as the moral actor.[/QUOTE] Israel is hardly a moral actor even from a military or intelligence point of view. They false-flag attacked a US military ship to try and draw us into a war, and when we saw through it, they pretended it was an accident. More recently, they've sold American fighter jet and missile technology to China. The US Intelligence Community considers Israel the largest intelligent threat in the region. Israeli agents has been known to tamper with our equipment, have spies deliver stolen documents from the US Military, and pose their men as CIA Agents so any blame comes back to the Americans instead.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49421121]I won't disagree with you here, but even if that happened it still wouldn't stop [I]your[/I] country doing bad things. "Jewish settlers" are complete shitheads that you guys should be rounding up and throwing into prison, period. Hamas does actively prolong the conflict yeah, but fucking Israel sure as hell makes it easy for them to justify it. So no, really, it isn't a dumb position to be in the middle and say "you're both assholes" because it's absolutely true.[/QUOTE] For the record, the vast majority of settlers are just people that happen to live on the wrong side of the border. The ones you see in the news though, the messianic, ultra nationalistic ones that fuck with the Palestinians all the time? They make up for all the rest with all the racism, belligerence and pure fucking evil they spawn. They're still a very loud minority that even most Israelis don't like. [editline]31st December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;49421510]Israel is hardly a moral actor even from a military or intelligence point of view. They false-flag attacked a US military ship to try and draw us into a war, and when we saw through it, they pretended it was an accident. More recently, they've sold American fighter jet and missile technology to China. The US Intelligence Community considers Israel the largest intelligent threat in the region. Israeli agents has been known to tamper with our equipment, have spies deliver stolen documents from the US Military, and pose their men as CIA Agents so any blame comes back to the Americans instead.[/QUOTE] Seriously? The USS Liberty thing again? Why is it so impossible to imagine it really was a friendly fire incident? Is it really more likely that Israel was conspiring to drag the US into the Six Day War it was already completely winning, or that some military fuckup got Israeli warplanes to accidentally attack a US spy ship cruising around an area where there was an actual war going on? I mean, they didn't even sink the fucking ship. Anyway it's kind of adorable that you accuse Israel of spying on the US[URL="http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-spy-net-on-israel-snares-congress-1451425210"] today of all days[/URL]. I mean, god knows the US would never spy on allies or [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry#World.27s_largest_arms_exporters"]sell weapons to other countries[/URL] or anything. But hey every argument about Israel is a good excuse to air out the "Israel is the worst ally" spreadsheet right? I mean that was totally what everyone was talking about.
[QUOTE=Canuhearme?;49421156]Because this current policy of just throwing your nose up in the air and saying "well [I]both[/I] sides are bad" does nothing but continue the conflict.[/QUOTE]Haha [I]no it fucking doesn't.[/I] Part of this conflict stems from the raw anger and hatred toward Israel and that, right there, will not go away if Israelis continue to fan that fire. Saying that Israel's got a fucking hand in this is the responsible thing to do because Israel should not be inciting more attacks against it if they truly are "fighting for survival." They're not by the way, not anymore. Israel's been bullying the Arab population inside and outside it's borders for decades now and whatever you call it, be it a failure in government policy or an unwanted cultural element, the fact remains that it needs to stop. This is non-negotiable. I'm not going to go "well Hamas is the bigger bad guy so let's just ignore Israel's problems" because Israel's bad behavior [B]directly[/B] contributes to how effectively Hamas can operate. [QUOTE=ScumBunny;49421665]The ones you see in the news though, the messianic, ultra nationalistic ones that fuck with the Palestinians all the time?[/QUOTE]Yes, those are precisely the ones I'm talking about. [QUOTE=ScumBunny;49421665]They're still a very loud minority that even most Israelis don't like.[/QUOTE]Then do something about it. Seriously. Whatever it is you're doing now is not working, what little arrests that have been made are far and few in between so something needs to change there. [editline]30th December 2015[/editline] Honestly this "well stop saying Israel's bad too because it just makes things worse!" shit a little bit offensive. That's implying that Jews are incised to blind violence the moment they feel threatened. I guess going by that logic we should just back off or else they'll flip out and massacre a bunch of Palestinians because we said Israel does bad shit like massacre a bunch of Palestinians. Come the fuck on.
[QUOTE=ScumBunny;49421665]Seriously? The USS Liberty thing again? Why is it so impossible to imagine it really was a friendly fire incident? Is it really more likely that Israel was conspiring to drag the US into the Six Day War it was already completely winning, or that some military fuckup got Israeli warplanes to accidentally attack a US spy ship cruising around an area where there was an actual war going on? I mean, they didn't even sink the fucking ship. [/QUOTE] And even if it was an accident, that's extremely gross incompetence on Israel's part. They knew the USS Liberty was in the area, they had identified it previously. They also knew that Soviet ships were in the area. Yet dispute knowing there were neutral ships nearby, they maintained their order to sink any ships they could not readily identify. According to the US Navy, the USS Liberty was clearly identifiable, flying a large American Flag and having the American registration number "GTR5" painted on the hull in 4 places.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;49420789]I am a bigger, better person for my stance. Seeing the world as a stew of equal evils is a completely useless stance to take. At some point, decisions need to be made and sides need to be taken.[/QUOTE] lol [QUOTE=Melnek;49420972]if you think hamas and israel are one of the same in terms of bad-guy levels you are hilariously uninformed no, displacement of homes is not a legitimate reason to grab a knife and stab the nearest jewish looking person you see. stabbing and murdering innocent people for al-aqsa is not fucking okay by any measure of international law. and don't try to spin the occupation of territory as being the same as murder. both are illegal, but the comparison is literally between thievery and murder and there is a huge difference both morally and legally. again people take this dumb on the fence position (both sides are equally evil!). it's disingenuous. and it's important to understand that while comparisons of who is "badder" are dumb, they are vital to establish who is actually fueling this conflict and the only entity that actively does it is hamas. if hamas is destroyed, the war will be over. there is literally no other way around this fact.[/QUOTE] It's kind of completely missing the bigger picture to just take hamas in a vacuum and use it as a scapegoat for the entire conflict. They are the result of the conflict, they wouldnt be able to recruit without it. There is one surefire way to "destroy" hamas, and one way that can only make it grow. The way to make it grow, is to continue doing what israel is doing right now. The way to destroy it, is to remove their reason to exist, eventually it will fragment, deradicalize, and the remaining cells will be small and few enough. Israel created hamas with their actions against palestine, terrorism breeds terrorism. Most of the conflicts in the middle east are extremely complicated without any good solutions but, for once, there is a clear answer in israel. It baffles me, you have a government with all the power doing terrible shit but you look at the terrorist cell that's become just as racially motivated as the government bent on oppressing them and you say "hamas is the problem here". Hamas doesnt have the power to stop the fighting, they're in the thick shit of it, you cant see out when your in the sewers of war. It isnt a position to take the moral high ground, and more importantly they won't listen to global public outcry. Israel does have the power, media, military resources, government, though their idea of moral high ground includes repeating the cycle of oppression once more. They might listen to global outcry, but it doesn't exist due to that funny alliance with the US and the strange and bizarre defenses of israel in the media. Its just foreign policy, and policy that isn't looking to stop the conflict. Hamas in israel can be seen as an analogue of countless other celebrated rebel groups around the world. The difference, is that the conflict has come to civilians on both sides being targeted. Its happened before, but in the modern world it becomes very obvious that war is brutal, especially when religious and racial motivations are present. Both sides stop seeing the others as humans, there is a spark, civilians die, and more civilians die in retaliation, then the blood for blood starts and everyone feels completely justified in killing whoever they can get their hands on.
[QUOTE=Crhem van der B;49419649]How can you not be in favour of Israel when the other side is a bunch of animals just attacking random people[/QUOTE] [url]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1498881&highlight=[/url] Hamas isn't nice but....
[QUOTE=Crhem van der B;49419649]How can you not be in favour of Israel when the other side is a bunch of animals just attacking random people which, for all they know, may be leftists and want only better?? How is the other side any different to some dire wolves attacking innocent people?? I used to be sympathetic for the Palestinian, but this is beyond ridiculous. Randomly attacking anyone in the street is just impossible to justify.[/QUOTE] Palestine is a monolithic entity so everyone who lives there is a shitty person who deserves their house to be destroyed. Oh wait. no its fucking not.
Why is it that when Israel or Palestine is brought up all capacity for critical thought seems to melt away? I mean, HumanAbyss says we should try and move beyond a good v. evil dichotomy because it makes it difficult to redress grievances and then gets dogpiled because people can't stand to hear that their home-team isn't perfect. C'mon guys.
[QUOTE=Lonestriper;49422700]Why is it that when Israel or Palestine is brought up all capacity for critical thought seems to melt away? I mean, HumanAbyss says we should try and move beyond a good v. evil dichotomy because it makes it difficult to redress grievances and then gets dogpiled because people can't stand to hear that their home-team isn't perfect. C'mon guys.[/QUOTE] because it's a non-argument designed to literally kill any form of discussion america and iraq both committed atrocities so they are the same the soviet union and nazi germany both committed atrocities so they are the same etc. its not true by any standard of measurement critical thought melts away because people make comparisons to incomparable things, mistaking the theft of land as a crime punishable by executions and widespread stabbings and all sorts of other medieval shit under the pretense that said theft is "fueling" the conflict but that's not how that shit works. the correct way to address the settlements is in a court of law, but then you might argue that palestinians have no court of law to speak of, but that's - in turn - because hamas blocks any form of legality to take place beyond the green and blue lines because they are literally a terrorist organization under the pretense of a functioning government. and then people start mentioning the strict israeli control of border crossings and the general treatment of palestinians but guess what, when you have a population that is extremely volatile and unpredictable, ready to amass, riot and murder at a moments notice you kind of have no choice but to do what is necessary to keep your own population safe. hamas' existence isn't just fueled by israeli oppression, that's a load of nonsense. hamas' existence is fueled by literally fear and oppression of [u]their own fucking population[/u]. they force citizens to join their cause under threats of violence. people here are acting as if not letting a guy through a checkpoint because his entry permit is out of date will make him turn around put on a vest and grab a rifle, but that's horseshit. i could go on all day about shit like this. bottom line is hamas needs to be taken out of the picture, once they're out, deradicalization of the palestinian population can slowly begin. demolishing the settlements and pulling back the checkpoints while hamas is still operating will just make them think they've won, and should continue to attack until there is nothing else left because that is their literal stated end goal. fuck me.
You know, the problem is when you take MY words and take them from being "They both do bad things" to "THEY ARE THE SAME" because you know what you're doing? You're just making a strawman. I never said they were the same, you, flashmarsh, everyone else, has put that on me. I've said they both committed numerous attrocities. YOU made the assumption that I EVER meant it was "The same". I did not. i do not. Asking for a calmer discussion less based on who the villain is and more based on how we move forward is a bad thing becaues that's what you've demonstrated here. I never said "Israel and Hamas are the same". They're clearly different. One is a rag tag government of terrorists who are the natural response to decades of oppression. Israel is a large government with lots of beaucracy and typical government like features but they have ALSO committed attrocities. By saying this is a direct comparison meaning they are the same thing, you're making a strawman and putting words in my mouth to argue with a boogeyman. [editline]30th December 2015[/editline] Fuck me indeed. [editline]30th December 2015[/editline] "They are both not good guys" is not "They are the same"
Israel wants more land. Palestine wants their land back. Scumbunny wants to shit on Palestine. Fox fans agrees. Pro-palestine defends palestine Neutral side went with 'everybody's evil' There're one thing in common: Neither side will listen to the others The natural conclusion thats supposed to happen IS the thing that is happening now ; war. Nothing special.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49420217]Yes one side has a terrorist group. I guess that makes the actions of Israel okay when they also do damage regularly to civilians? No, you could just do the reasonable thing here and admit that backing either side is wrong. There is context that created Hamas. It is not a good thing Hamas exists, but there is a reason it does. Both sides are bad. Acting like one is "Less bad" is kinda dumb when in reality, both sides are really only hurting civillians who want a normal life. Hamas has such an easy time recruiting because of how heavy handed Israel is in that region. I mean sure, you can say "one sides the actual bad guys" but that's utterly meaningless in my opinion because it forgets the context of the region when discussing it.[/QUOTE] This is exactly why I've always hated the "lesser evil" argument and applies to a lot more than just Israel vs Palestine.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49422271][url]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1498881&highlight=[/url] Hamas isn't nice but....[/QUOTE] The difference is that most Israelis are absolutely disgusted by this. I've heard people ranging from religious Zionist to the most radical leftists condemning this. Meanwhile, the Palestinian government [I]praises[/I] the stabbers. The Israeli government is trying to find and punish the people who murdered that child but the Palestinian government doesn't do anything to stop the stabbings.
[QUOTE=Svinnik;49423838]The difference is that most Israelis are absolutely disgusted by this. I've heard people ranging from religious Zionist to the most radical leftists condemning this. Meanwhile, the Palestinian government [I]praises[/I] the stabbers. The Israeli government is trying to find and punish the people who murdered that child but the Palestinian government doesn't do anything to stop the stabbings.[/QUOTE]I don't think anyone sane is actually saying "yeah well the Palestinians aren't to blame here" and condoning this shit is completely fucking wrong. That really doesn't make the bad things Israel does okay which was the point. Hamas is a bunch of murderous thugs who bully Palestinians as much as they terrorize Israelis, and quite honestly if the Palestinian government condones that sort of thing then I'd say they're equally at fault since they are the supposed representatives of the Palestinian people. I'm sure there's people out there who think Hamas is full of hip cool happenin' freedom fighters but we all agree that such people are either insane or complete fucking morons. (probably both) I mean I hope we can all agree on that.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;49424064]I don't think anyone sane is actually saying "yeah well the Palestinians aren't to blame here" and condoning this shit is completely fucking wrong. That really doesn't make the bad things Israel does okay which was the point. Hamas is a bunch of murderous thugs who bully Palestinians as much as they terrorize Israelis, and quite honestly if the Palestinian government condones that sort of thing then I'd say they're equally at fault since they are the supposed representatives of the Palestinian people. I'm sure there's people out there who think Hamas is full of hip cool happenin' freedom fighters but we all agree that such people are either insane or complete fucking morons. (probably both) I mean I hope we can all agree on that.[/QUOTE] From what I can find online, it seems that a huge percent of palestinians support Hamas, sometimes close to 50% (often around 30%).
Now chalk this up to being anecdotal, cause it is, but I've had friends go over to Israel for trips and other projects, and sometimes they get to talk to some Palestinians. Whenever they ask how they'd rather live under, and LARGE percent (75%+) say they'd rather live under Israel. But hey, anecdotal.
[QUOTE=hakimhakim;49423718]Israel wants more land. Palestine wants their land back. [B]Scumbunny wants to shit on Palestine.[/B] Fox fans agrees. Pro-palestine defends palestine Neutral side went with 'everybody's evil' There're one thing in common: Neither side will listen to the others The natural conclusion thats supposed to happen IS the thing that is happening now ; war. Nothing special.[/QUOTE] No I don't. I want peace with the Palestinians, and I think the only way it will happen is if the occupation ends and Palestinians get their own country. I can't be clearer than that.
I do think it's possible to not take sides. I think the only truly bad guy here is the person from a foreign land who sends foreign aid to sway territorial debates towards something that favors them politically. I don't live there, I don't know anyone who lives there, and for all I know from what I've seen in videos, it looks kinda like a shithole, so fuck it, yall can fight over that nonsense all you want, and whoever survives can keep it, I don't care. I shouldn't care, I don't live there, and it's just not important to me for any ideological reason either because I genuinely don't believe that the apocalypse will happen there or that anything magical at all ever happened there. Don't get me wrong, human rights violations are terrible and all that, we don't want them to outright massacre each other. But I do believe it's possible to not have a horse in this race.
[QUOTE=J Paul;49425179]I do think it's possible to not take sides. I think the only truly bad guy here is the person from a foreign land who sends foreign aid to sway territorial debates towards something that favors them politically. I don't live there, I don't know anyone who lives there, and for all I know from what I've seen in videos, it looks kinda like a shithole, so fuck it, yall can fight over that nonsense all you want, and whoever survives can keep it, I don't care. I shouldn't care, I don't live there, and it's just not important to me for any ideological reason either because I genuinely don't believe that the apocalypse will happen there or that anything magical at all ever happened there. Don't get me wrong, human rights violations are terrible and all that, we don't want them to outright massacre each other. But I do believe it's possible to not have a horse in this race.[/QUOTE] You probably feel righteous after this post but it's actually the worst, most callous, and immoral position to take.
[QUOTE=Da Bomb76;49425366]You probably feel righteous after this post but it's actually the worst, most callous, and immoral position to take.[/QUOTE] No, it isn't. If it was then all your combined inactions about all sorts of injustices are just as grave, we're all inadvertent casually callous monsters if what you say is true. You don't care about every injustice and every problem, you don't have time to do so, no one really does. The nature of this conversation is so deeply emotional and gets so many of us wrapped up in seriously ineffectual opinions. You're not going out and helping Israel defeat Hamas, you're arguing on the Internet, not having time to be so deeply invested in honestly a very complicated issue isn't the worst opinion. It's hard to get to the bottom of this issue in an unbiased way because there is very little chance for the conversation to be neutral let alone unbiased. I'd say categorically the most directly hostile and shut eyed posts are the worst but hey I'm only human I can be wrong. So can all of you. It's not bad to remember that from time to time
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49425394]No, it isn't. If it was then all your combined inactions about all sorts of injustices are just as grave, we're all inadvertent casually callous monsters if what you say is true. You don't care about every injustice and every problem, you don't have time to do so, no one really does. The nature of this conversation is so deeply emotional and gets so many of us wrapped up in seriously ineffectual opinions. You're not going out and helping Israel defeat Hamas, you're arguing on the Internet, not having time to be so deeply invested in honestly a very complicated issue isn't the worst opinion. It's hard to get to the bottom of this issue in an unbiased way because there is very little chance for the conversation to be neutral let alone unbiased. I'd say categorically the most directly hostile and shut eyed posts are the worst but hey I'm only human I can be wrong. So can all of you. It's not bad to remember that from time to time[/QUOTE] How about this then: Instead of the usual arguments over moral high grounds, consider this quote from the article, about people that are actually trying to make things better: [QUOTE]AK’s stance – [B]prioritizing peace over apportioning blame[/B] — is typical of her organization’s members, no matter their age.[/QUOTE] It really doesn't matter whose more evil. It really doesn't matter whose side anyone takes in an internet argument. It doesn't matter to the people here either. All these lists of all the things we did to each other only serve to justify doing even more, and feeling better about it. The only thing that matters is peace, and the only way we'll ever get there is if everyone manages to get their heads out of their asses for long enough to realize it doesn't fucking matter who did what to whom anymore. It just matters that we stop.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49425394]No, it isn't. If it was then all your combined inactions about all sorts of injustices are just as grave, we're all inadvertent casually callous monsters if what you say is true. You don't care about every injustice and every problem, you don't have time to do so, no one really does. The nature of this conversation is so deeply emotional and gets so many of us wrapped up in seriously ineffectual opinions. You're not going out and helping Israel defeat Hamas, you're arguing on the Internet, not having time to be so deeply invested in honestly a very complicated issue isn't the worst opinion. It's hard to get to the bottom of this issue in an unbiased way because there is very little chance for the conversation to be neutral let alone unbiased. I'd say categorically the most directly hostile and shut eyed posts are the worst but hey I'm only human I can be wrong. So can all of you. It's not bad to remember that from time to time[/QUOTE] I'm not talking about inaction, I'm talking about: [quote]it looks kinda like a shithole, so fuck it, yall can fight over that nonsense all you want, and whoever survives can keep it, I don't care. I shouldn't care, I don't live there,[/quote] He obviously knows about the problem but doesn't care and says the guy with the bigger stick should win by fiat.
[QUOTE=ScumBunny;49425143]No I don't. I want peace with the Palestinians, and I think the only way it will happen is if the occupation ends and Palestinians get their own country. I can't be clearer than that.[/QUOTE] And what better way to encourage peace than posting a thread that flames hatred? Sorry, I forgot that contradiction is another color in Israeli flag
[QUOTE=hakimhakim;49455239]And what better way to encourage peace than posting a thread that flames hatred? Sorry, I forgot that contradiction is another color in Israeli flag[/QUOTE] reporting a stabbing epidemic in your home country by terrorists is flaming hatred? Also, what do you even mean by the last sentence?
[QUOTE=hakimhakim;49455239]And what better way to encourage peace than posting a thread that flames hatred? Sorry, I forgot that contradiction is another color in Israeli flag[/QUOTE] oh right i forgot, we should encourage peace by letting these peace activists stab us a million times and not complain about it because it will offend them and their culture.
[QUOTE=hakimhakim;49455239]And what better way to encourage peace than posting a thread that flames hatred? Sorry, I forgot that contradiction is another color in Israeli flag[/QUOTE] Lol if you think the Israeli government actions somehow excuse the Palestinians from killing any Israeli on sight then that's just sad imo
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