[QUOTE=T2L_Goose;22442967]So Animals will have rights but not always
[/QUOTE]
The fact that they are not one of our kin, makes it legit to kill them if your own survival is [U]immediately[/U] necessary.
The survival of Japanese people is not immediately necessary. They are killing whales for profit. And even so, I'd say the Japaense have long stretched the boundaries of how many people are supposed to be living on one tiny island with very few resources. No need to go off and murder some other small popualtion of sentient creatures just because you don't want to slow down on the baby making.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;22443218]The fact that they are not one of our kin, makes it legit to kill them if your own survival is [U]immediately[/U] necessary.
The survival of Japanese people is not immediately necessary. They are killing whales for profit. And even so, I'd say the Japaense have long stretched the boundaries of how many people are supposed to be living on one tiny island with very few resources. No need to go off and murder some other small popualtion of sentient creatures just because you don't want to slow down on the baby making.[/QUOTE]
They gain profit. Someone somewhere eats the meat. So that seems right to me.
Fishers should stop fishing just because there are special places to grow fish? No.
[QUOTE=johanz;22443181]You can't just give rights to an another specie. They won't even understand that they have rights anyway.[/QUOTE]
Worlds #1 whale expert coming through.
Last I read, I think a dolphin has something like 60% of the cognitive capacity of a human. They apply it in different ways, but the raw capacity is there. Hey, why don't we just go and kill the mentally handicapped, they are only capable of using their brain capacity to about 60% of a normal human's. They won't even understand that they have rights anyway.
[QUOTE=Yahnich;22442048]Whaling is immoral but giving them 'human' rights is just ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
This. Why would we grant human rights to definitely-not-human animals? Animals already have some rights like not being tortured and hunted into extinction. All we need is better enforcement of those.
What would happen if a shark kills a dolphin?
Are you going to go CSI: Pacific and track it down and put it in jail?
The reason we have rights is because we understand them and know we have them. You tell a dolphin or whale they have right and they just swim off and eat some shit. They don't fucking care.
If they all die the sharks ans anemones will control the high seas!
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;22443254]Worlds #1 whale expert coming through.
Last I read, I think a dolphin has something like 60% of the cognitive capacity of a human. They apply it in different ways, but the raw capacity is there. Hey, why don't we just go and kill the mentally handicapped they are only capable of using their brain capacity to about 60% of a normal human's. They won't even understand that they have rights anyway.[/QUOTE]
Because the mentally handicapped are humans, thus by default they receive human rights.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;22443275]So all of a sudden you can tell people they don't have the right to have a child, so that their population growth will slow down?[/QUOTE]
China did it, and I think it was a good idea. (one child policy, not the same, but they are trying to stow their population)
Seriously, I'm up for protecting cetaceans as much as the next guy, but this is fucking ridiculous.
[QUOTE=T2L_Goose;22443283]Because the mentally handicapped are humans.[/QUOTE]
So, it's a kinship thing, eh. Sorry, I didn't realize you weren't operating on any legit logic here.
Maybe instead we should kill all humans so poor animals can at last live in peace? Fuck you animal, evolve or die.
[QUOTE=johanz;22443334]Maybe instead we should kill all humans so poor animals can at last live in peace? Fuck you animal, evolve or die.[/QUOTE]
Damn man, yeah, we should just go around and wipe them out as an order* that'll make them evolve!!
Dolphin is delicious. I don't know about whale, but I would eat some Dolphin again.
What makes them better than cows or chickens?
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;22443304]So, it's a kinship thing, eh. Sorry, I didn't realize you weren't operating on any legit logic here.[/QUOTE]
They're human, thus they receive [B]human[/B] rights. The majority of humans understand they have rights, the majority of dolphins and whales would not.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;22443345]Damn man, yeah, we should just go around and wipe them out as a species, that'll make them evolve!![/QUOTE]
A lot of animals already have rights and protection not to be hunted.
You can't give HUMAN rights to non human.
[QUOTE=T2L_Goose;22443358]They're human, thus they receive [B]human[/B] rights. The majority of humans understand they have rights, the majority of dolphins and whales would not.[/QUOTE]
Learn to read.
I said giving them "human rights" was a shitty idea.
[quote]"Human Rights" is just a lousy direction to bring this in. I think they should just be given status as sort "Elevated Lifeforms" held in a sort of sacred regard, that gain amnesty from being [U]commercially[/U] hunted. I think hunting of them should be allowed for recognized, [I]small [/I]groups of people that require them as a source of food and living material.[/quote]
Whales and dolphins have the same value of life as a sea turtle, a salmon, a parrot. Animals are equal. This whole "oh but dolphins are intelligent" thing is stupid. So we should only kill stupid animals for food? Should we also just go around killing mentally retarded people because they aren't "intelligent"?
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;22442550]I'm not about to go vegan.
Animals eat other animals. It's a natural thing. To kill an animal for fun, on the other hand, I find disgusting, but so long as the hunter plans to fully use and/or eat his prey, I see no issue.[/QUOTE]
But you like to slit goats necks and watch them bleed out because of your religion, which is inhumane.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;22443397]Another thing. Dolphins and whales have been around just as long as humans have, if not longer. Why aren't they more advanced? Maybe because their at their limit as a species? 60% of cognitive functions is great, i mean that's a real achievement, but its only 60%.[/QUOTE]
They aren't more advanced because Human beings going around on [B]butchering ships[/B] and killing them is not natural selection!
If humans went around killing every single wild animal on mass, it would not qualify as natural selection, we are miles head of everything else on the food chain.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;22443345]Damn man, yeah, we should just go around and wipe them out as a species, that'll make them evolve!![/QUOTE]
Why are you so damn black and white. "IF YOU AREN'T FOR DOLPHIN AND WHALE RIGHTS YOU WANT THEM ALL DEAD" No, that's not at all what we are saying. We just don't believe they qualify for or would even appreciate their own rights. And like I said, what if another animal kills them when they have these rights? What happens then? Are these rights just to protect them from humans? So a shark can't deny a Dolphin of life, liberty, and well being?
[QUOTE=Arrows;22443425]But you like to slit goats necks and watch them bleed out because of your religion, which is inhumane.[/QUOTE]
Well did they have guns hundreds of years ago to shoot the goat in the head? No.
I agree that whales and dolphins do have rights to life and liberty, not sure on the whole human rights thing. It needs to be called something else.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;22443438]They aren't more advanced because Human beings going around on [B]Hunting ships[/B] and hunting them for food is not natural selection, it's people eating what they have been eating for hundreds of years!
If humans went around killing every single wild animal on mass, it would not qualify as natural selection, we are miles head of everything else on the food chain.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=T2L_Goose;22443449]Why are you so damn black and white. "IF YOU AREN'T FOR DOLPHIN AND WHALE RIGHTS YOU WANT THEM ALL DEAD" No, that's not at all what we are saying. We just don't believe they qualify for or would even appreciate their own rights. And like I said, what if another animal kills them when they have these rights? What happens then? Are these rights just to protect them from humans? So a shark can't deny a Dolphin of life, liberty, and well being?[/QUOTE]
You still haven't answered my question, why do you deserve the right to not be killed?
If you suddenly found yourself without arms and legs to defend yourself, and a superior lifeform tried to kill you with it's vastly superior technology, would you feel that you have any right to live?
If they hated being hunted so much, and they are so claimed to display "intelligence", why won't they stand up for themselves.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;22443478]Humans didn't do that on mass scales until (evolutionary speaking) just recently. Maybe its just because.. i dont know.. they can't get any smarter?[/QUOTE]
They don't need to be smarter, that's what I just said. Until recently, the humans didn't start hunting them on mass.
They didn't need to be 100% as intelligent as humans, because up until 40 years ago or so, they didn't need to deal with mobile slaughterhouses invading their spawning fields.
[QUOTE=Richard Simmons;22443511]If they hated being hunted so much, and they are so claimed to display "intelligence", why won't they stand up for themselves.[/QUOTE]
Because they're missing thumbs, duh
[QUOTE=Richard Simmons;22443511]If they hated being hunted so much, and they are so claimed to display "intelligence", why won't they stand up for themselves.[/QUOTE]
Smashing your face against a 5 inch thick metal hull is not an applicable form of defense.
[editline]06:01PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;22443651]Why is it that when a nonhuman has a lower cognitive function, it can be given human rights, but when a human has lower cognitive function, its rights barely exist (cant be tried , cant drive, often times cant live alone) If you give other animals human rights, then you must give all HUMANS the same rights.[/QUOTE]
Learn. to. read.
[quote=Hypno Toad]"Human Rights" is just a lousy direction to bring this in. I think they should just be given status as sort "Elevated Lifeforms" held in a sort of sacred regard, that gain amnesty from being [U]commercially[/U] hunted. I think hunting of them should be allowed for recognized, [I]small [/I]groups of people that require them as a source of food and living material.[/quote]
I'm not saying we regard them as humans, I'm just saying that it becomes completely illegal to kill them on mass, even for "research" out of respect for their advanced emotional and cognitive capabilities.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;22443657]Smashing your face against a 5 inch thick metal hull is not an applicable form of defense.
[editline]06:01PM[/editline]
Learn. to. read.[/QUOTE]
Well they are surrounded by water, why don't they just diver underwater? They need to think outside the box if they are so smart.
[QUOTE=Hypothermic;22443420]Whales and dolphins have the same value of life as a sea turtle, a salmon, a parrot. Animals are equal. This whole "oh but dolphins are intelligent" thing is stupid. So we should only kill stupid animals for food? Should we also just go around killing mentally retarded people because they aren't "intelligent"?[/QUOTE]
Flawed logic indeed, but most times, logic doesn't apply to moralistic concepts.
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