[QUOTE=Daddy-of-war;51709648]Okay so Brown or White, who gives a fuck? They raped someone, you guys. All of you arguing over did the "Dirty Brown sandpeople do it or was it the pasty white devils?" Seriously, rape is rape across the fucking board, no matter who did it.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=bunguer;51709704]Jesus fuck, it's like some of you are more interested in playing identity politics than talking about the fucking rape and solutions to it - just look at the first post and how many 'stars' it got.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=GordonZombie;51709980]Now can people fuck off bringing identity politics into this.[/QUOTE]
The thing is though, this is a completely new phenomenon in Sweden. These kind of reports of sexual harassments and groping at festivals, rapes in broad daylight and gangrapes were completely unprecedented in Sweden prior to the recent influx of refugees.
You can not hope to solve the problem if you refuse to acknowledge it even exists.
Obviously, the ol' drunken native Swede raping his wife is really bad too, but when the reported cases of rape (and especially considering the nature of them) have skyrocketed like this, it should be a cause for concern.
[QUOTE=Trim;51709834]The very source of that article you posted says that the problem exists since 2000. Is this also "tons of refugees" ? For 14 years?[/QUOTE]
The Swedish refugee experiment has been going strong for at least a good 15-20 years.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51710148]Keeping Muslims from immigrating to Sweden is completely doable. This is extremely basic, I don't know why I haven't gotten an answer from anybody yet.[/QUOTE]
There is a difference between muslims and muslims though, and there is a difference between immigrants and refugees. There's a vast difference between refugees coming from Syria and immigrants coming from Iran, and yet those are both muslim countries.
The absolute majority are good people and most of them do really well, that's not to say some could conform better to the Swedish society and cultural norms, but this is mainly the fault of the refugee policies that has caused a ridiculously large influx of refugees which will leave people living in segregated areas where there is little encouragement for them to adjust to the Swedish society. The natural process of integration simply takes longer in comparison to how many refugees enter our country and there's not much that can be done to speed that up either because of how strained the migration administration's resources are.
The same refugee policies make it possible for radial muslims, isis-sympathizers and other scumbags to slip through the gates and into our country and those are the real bad muslims you don't want in your country.
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;51710244]I don't think anyone should be denied entry to a country based on race or religion, but i do think that there should be some sort of investigation to see if there is indeed a discrepancy in crime rates between middle eastern/north african immigrants and other immigrants/ethnic swedes, as there is no denying that these areas have vastly differing cultures which could have impact on the values of the individual. this information should not be used for discrimination purposes, but to better understand how to solve the issue should one exist. perhaps better integration or education programs could be implemented to prevent such a thing, should said thing actually exist.[/QUOTE]
Discrepancy exists. Integration/education programs exist.
The question is what more can be done.
[QUOTE=Talishmar;51710342]Discrepancy exists. Integration/education programs exist.
The question is what more can be done.[/QUOTE]
Not take in more then you can handle? Sweden fucked up at that part.
[QUOTE=ejonkou;51710325]Most crimes are generally fuelled by socio-economic reasons and not because of someones ethnic background. Black people in America commit more crimes on average than any other ethnic demographic. 40% of people currently incarcarated in the US are black, yet black people only account for 13% of the population. So using your logic people in the US should start discriminating against black people, because they commit more crimes than any other group of people, instead of trying to tackle the socio-economic issues they're facing.
Europe are facing similair issues. Yeah, immigrants commit more crimes on average than the native population. Is this surprising? No. Instead of sweeping it under the rug or attacking people who call these issues out as racists, [B]maybe we should identify the issues[/B] and try to solve them.[/QUOTE]
When the issue has been identified to also be an ideological difference in the way certain muslim countries view women compared to the western world, a lot of people ignored it becuase that's "islamophobic" or "racist" (I don't get the race part, it's an ideology not a race).
[QUOTE=ejonkou;51710325]Most crimes are generally fuelled by socio-economic reasons and not because of someones ethnic background. Black people in America commit more crimes on average than any other ethnic demographic. 40% of people currently incarcarated in the US are black, yet black people only account for 13% of the population. So using your logic people in the US should start discriminating against black people, because they commit more crimes than any other group of people, instead of trying to tackle the socio-economic issues they're facing.
Europe are facing similair issues. Yeah, immigrants commit more crimes on average than the native population. Is this surprising? Instead of sweeping it under the rug or attacking people who call these issues out as racist, maybe we should identify the issues and try to solve them.[/QUOTE]
That's literally what pro-refugee groups have been trying to do with the calls for better integration program and the fight against the ever increasing gap between rich and poor. Something that a lot of what !Lord M! so often calls "leftists" are calling for.
Nobody is saying that immigrants and refugees don't have and bring problems, it's just that that the demagogues and populists try to have a really unjustified and simplified focus on them because it panders to the inner "we vs them" fears that is inheritant to humans and thus proposes easy solutions. And someone who promises easy solutions is someone who, history has shown, wants power and doesn't give a rats ass about real solutions.
[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51710260]I don't have a second source from the Finnish Ministry of Justice, it is very hard to google that when you are not speaking the language.[/QUOTE]
Here you go. Page 57.
[url]http://www.oikeusministerio.fi/fi/index/julkaisut/julkaisuarkisto/132012selvityksiaraiskausrikoksista/Files/OMSO_13_2012_Selvityksia_raiskausrikoksista_214_s.pdf[/url]
Nationality is estimated on basis of name and social security number.
Tidbit from the study: between 2006 and 2010 there were no rape convictions where victim was male and perpetrator was female.
[QUOTE=Big Bang;51710321]The thing is that this discrimination is actually so broad it includes people who are born in Sweden from immigrant families, who shouldn't be kicked out to anywhere, because according to the law, they're Swedish, and that's the way it should be.[/QUOTE]
Not true. From the immigration office site:
[quote]Children born in Sweden have the same nationality as the parents have. If the parents are citizens of a country outside the EU, parents must apply for a residence permit for the child. The child usually get the same state as the parents have.
If a child is born after April 1, 2015, he or she is a Swedish citizen from birth if one parent is a Swedish citizen regardless of where the child is born.
A child born before April 1, 2015 but after July 1, 2001 by a woman who is a Swedish citizen is automatically a Swedish citizen.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Vlevs;51710374]Here you go. Page 57.
[url]http://www.oikeusministerio.fi/fi/index/julkaisut/julkaisuarkisto/132012selvityksiaraiskausrikoksista/Files/OMSO_13_2012_Selvityksia_raiskausrikoksista_214_s.pdf[/url]
Nationality is estimated on basis of name and social security number.
Tidbit from the study: between 2006 and 2010 there were no rape convictions where victim was male and perpetrator was female.[/QUOTE]
Big thanks! Now Trim can read it.
[QUOTE=Trim;51710356]That's literally what pro-refugee groups have been trying to do with the calls for better integration program and the fight against the ever increasing gap between rich and poor. Something that a lot of what !Lord M! so often calls "leftists" are calling for.
[B]Nobody is saying that immigrants and refugees don't have and bring problems,[/B] it's just that that the demagogues and populists try to have a really unjustified and simplified focus on them because it panders to the inner "we vs them" fears that is inheritant to humans and thus proposes easy solutions. And someone who promises easy solutions is someone who, history has shown, wants power and doesn't give a rats ass about real solutions.[/QUOTE]
When it comes to the bolded part, the reason why the right has become more outraged at immigrant issues is actually because they were covered up extensively or downplayed in a lot of cases, and this causes more people to become more extremist in their views. When the establishment covers up crimes commited by refugees, of course people will become more anti-refugee.
[QUOTE=ejonkou;51710325]Most crimes are generally fuelled by socio-economic reasons and not because of someones ethnic background. Black people in America commit more crimes on average than any other ethnic demographic. 40% of people currently incarcarated in the US are black, yet black people only account for 13% of the population. So using your logic people in the US should start discriminating against black people, because they commit more crimes than any other group of people, instead of trying to tackle the socio-economic issues they're facing.[/QUOTE]
Here's a fun fact: That's already the case in the US. As far as addressing the crimes themselves, it's not unreasonable to focus more on the demographics most likely to commit them. The difference between crime committed by nationals, and crime committed by immigrants is that the host country has zero control over the socio-economic issues that predispose immigrants to said crimes.
The US deplorably does little to address (And with the existence of the prison-industrial complex, in some ways perpetuates) those that predispose Black citizens to crime.
[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51710375]Not true. From the immigration office site:[/QUOTE]
When it comes to long term immigrants with families or who were born in Sweden, wouldn't it make more moral or pragmatic sense to send them to Swedish prison?
[QUOTE=Big Bang;51710321]The thing is that this discrimination is actually so broad it includes people who are born in Sweden from immigrant families, who shouldn't be kicked out to anywhere, because according to the law, they're Swedish, and that's the way it should be.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Trim;51710356]That's literally what pro-refugee groups have been trying to do with the calls for better integration program and the fight against the ever increasing gap between rich and poor. Something that a lot of what !Lord M! so often calls "leftists" are calling for.
Nobody is saying that immigrants and refugees don't have and bring problems, it's just that that the demagogues and populists try to have a really unjustified and simplified focus on them because it panders to the inner "we vs them" fears that is inheritant to humans and thus proposes easy solutions. And someone who promises easy solutions is someone who, history has shown, wants power and doesn't give a rats ass about real solutions.[/QUOTE]
Why are you not answering my question in Post #109?
[QUOTE=wewt!;51710398]When it comes to long term immigrants with families or who were born in Sweden, wouldn't it make more moral or pragmatic sense to send them to Swedish prison?[/QUOTE]
Yes of course, if they been born and raised in Sweden they should be given a chance. But if they are repeat crimminals, do a particularily bestial crime or are a threat to the public then they should be deported. They got a responsibility towards Sweden too, not only the reverse.
[QUOTE=Hellsten;51710338]There is a difference between muslims and muslims though, and there is a difference between immigrants and refugees. There's a vast difference between refugees coming from Syria and immigrants coming from Iran, and yet those are both muslim countries.
The absolute majority are good people and most of them do really well, that's not to say some could conform better to the Swedish society and cultural norms, but this is mainly the fault of the refugee policies that has caused a ridiculously large influx of refugees which will leave people living in segregated areas where there is little encouragement for them to adjust to the Swedish society. The natural process of integration simply takes longer in comparison to how many refugees enter our country and there's not much that can be done to speed that up either because of how strained the migration administration's resources are.
The same refugee policies make it possible for radial muslims, isis-sympathizers and other scumbags to slip through the gates and into our country and those are the real bad muslims you don't want in your country.[/QUOTE]
The question is: why exactly is Sweden even allowing immigration in the first place? We're operating under the assumption that immigration needs to happen/is going to happen, but why? This is a completely new phenomenon. It hasn't been the case for almost the entirety of swedens history. Why allow anyone in at all?
[QUOTE=Hellsten;51710338]The thing is though, this is a completely new phenomenon in Sweden. These kind of reports of sexual harassments and groping at festivals, rapes in broad daylight and gangrapes were completely unprecedented in Sweden prior to the recent influx of refugees.
[/QUOTE]
After additional legislation was put in place to broaden the definition of rape in 2005, the amount of reported rapes naturally skyrocketed, an idea which Brå and the Polisen generally agree with. The notion that this was something that was previously unseen in the country rather contradicts the fact that ethnic Swedes were responsible for 105 gang rapes since 2000, according to the same source !LORD M! used. According to the same source, there is a man who is ethnically Swedish that is accused of aggravated rape, manslaughter and aggravated robbery, and is serving 10 years for that.
In fact looking deeper into the source material that !LORD M! used, the gang rape count actually includes a fair amount of people not actually prosecuted, 53 people actually. Fucking hell a fair chunk of them aren't even being accused of rape, [url=http://www.gangrapesweden.com/en/rapists.php]this source really is shit[/url].
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51710407]The question is: why exactly is Sweden even allowing immigration in the first place? We're operating under the assumption that immigration needs to happen/is going to happen, but why? This is a completely new phenomenon. It hasn't been the case for almost the entirety of swedens history. Why allow anyone in at all?[/QUOTE]
Do you believe people should never leave their home country? You seem to believe that. Should all countires wall themselves and their citizens in? Should we just stop having anything resembling multiculturalism?
[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51710334]The Police. You could use google you know and I wouldn't need to spoonfeed you.
[url]https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnyheteridag.se%2Fpolisens-interna-dokument-samtliga-sexforgripare-av-utlandsk-harkomst-pa-we-are-stockholm%2F[/url]
Oh and I like how none of the usual suspects have touched my question, clearly shows their agenda so far:[/QUOTE]
I don't need to use google for you to backup your statements
But hey it showed some interesting stuff
[url]http://www.thelocal.se/20160209/look-closer-at-the-facts-on-sex-attacks[/url]
[quote]Slightly over half of people who reported sexual offences (53 per cent) said these occurred in a public place, and in 63 percent of the cases the perpetrator was completely unknown to the victim. [/quote]
But this time they were able to 100% find the perpetrators and they were all "foreigners" ?
It's a fucking miracle
since when did lord m become some bizarre racist?
[QUOTE=Trim;51710427]I don't need to use google for you to backup your statements
But hey it showed some interesting stuff
[url]http://www.thelocal.se/20160209/look-closer-at-the-facts-on-sex-attacks[/url]
But this time they were able to 100% find the perpetrators and they were all "foreigners" ?
It's a fucking miracle[/QUOTE]
I like how you quoted my post but didn't answer the question at all.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;51710431]since when did lord m become some bizarre racist?[/QUOTE]
Never was never been, just want those that come here saying they need asylum and protection and committing crimes like rape and murder to be deported and I don't want the government to cover their crimes up. For that I am a racist.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51710420]Do you believe people should never leave their home country? You seem to believe that. Should all countires wall themselves and their citizens in? Should we just stop having anything resembling multiculturalism?[/QUOTE]
I don't see what good it does anyone. I'd look up Robert Putnam' study on racially diverse societies (there's less safety, there's less trust, less civic engagement, etc. in more diverse communities). I think a university in England redid the study and recreated his results about a year ago.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51710407]The question is: why exactly is Sweden even allowing immigration in the first place? We're operating under the assumption that immigration needs to happen/is going to happen, but why? This is a completely new phenomenon. It hasn't been the case for almost the entirety of swedens history. Why allow anyone in at all?[/QUOTE]
It's called humanitarianism. Somebody has to pick up the slack because there's going to be waves of immigrants until things start to settle down once and for all in the middle east. You can either buckle down and accept that there are going to be problems, and actually do your level best to solve them, or you can close your borders and leave people to starve or find their own way into any given country instead. They aren't going to simply roll over and perish either, not when they desperately tried to find their way into another country in the hope of finding a better life.
I don't disagree that their culture won't be exactly compatible with a European mode of thinking. What you can do is try to integrate them and make them understand how things work. You also have to find a way to give them gainful employment if possible. The best way would be to integrate such programs into an already existing platform, such as the existing social security systems in a country. I don't also disagree that all migrants will learn to modify their attitude, or not become criminals. But denying them this basic chance makes them more likely to turn against those they see as having denied them.
It's not going to be a simple solution considering how many problems are already at large in our world, but it's something that the people of all nations have to buckle down and agree to do something about, making hard decisions for the common good, instead of pretending the problem doesn't exist and trying to palm off refugees on other countries.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51710440]I don't see what good it does anyone. I'd look up Robert Putnam' study on racially diverse societies (there's less safety, there's less trust, less civic engagement, etc. in more diverse communities). I think a university in England redid the study and recreated his results about a year ago.[/QUOTE]
So, you honestly believe that "Britain for the British, America for the Americans" is a reality, and is something to strive towards?
Can you define what it is that makes someone "One of you" versus "one of them"? Can you? Do it without using jargon or terminology, how do you define a person who shouldn't be in YOUR society? Is a black person who's lineage goes back 200 years not American enough for you? Where is the line? What is the line made of? Where is the line drawn and how did you decide that?
Frankly, you don't have a fucking clue
[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51710438]I like how you quoted my post but didn't answer the question at all.[/QUOTE]
If you want to know the answer to your question, yes they should be deported, and yes, they actually ARE deported if they're refugees. There are sometimes arguments against deportation, particularly when it relates to minors and families, so that's why it's a case per case thing as opposed to some catch all "you fuck up, you're out" kinda deal.
[QUOTE=Big Bang;51710454]If you want to know the answer to your question, yes they should be deported, and yes, they actually ARE deported if they're refugees. There are sometimes arguments against deportation, particularly when it relates to minors and families, so that's why it's a case per case thing as opposed to some catch all "you fuck up, you're out" kinda deal.[/QUOTE]
Good, then we are on the same page. Do you think the government should cover cases up involving crimes committed by immigrants, like in We Are Stockholm 2015? Would that be good in order to not play people into the hands of SD?
[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51710438]I like how you quoted my post but didn't answer the question at all.
[/QUOTE]
That's because you pose that question that simplifies the issue far to much for three reasons:
-to distract from the questions on your awful posts and useless "sources" on page one and further
-to change the subject to "deportation"
-drag people into your simple way of thinking and arguing
Notice how we aren't talking about your awful "but nobody is caring about the victim look how self righteous they are" post anymore where for a moment you forgot that you weren't either, not even when posting the goddamn OP.
I'd just like to add to the discrimination thing that it's clearly not as black and white as some of you are trying to make it out to be, it's pretty stupid. I get charged more for insurance than women despite never having had a single accident or speeding ticket in my entire life. It's objectively discriminatory based on statics that as a male I'm more likely to be a dangerous driver.
The idea that I can be charged more for insurance because I have a dick but we can't be [i]selective[/i] of immigration from countries that have hideous attitudes towards women if they're provably raping more people is so insane to me that it's almost hard to comprehend. That clearly doesn't mean you have to deport all the brown people, but clearly if there's a problem you should address it no matter how uncomfortable it is
[QUOTE=Trim;51710471]That's because you pose that question that simplifies the issue far to much for three reasons:
-to distract from the questions on your awful posts and useless "sources" on page one and further
-to change the subject to "deportation"
-drag people into your simple way of thinking and arguing
Notice how we aren't talking about your awful "but nobody is caring about the victim look how self righteous they are" post anymore where for a moment you forgot that you weren't either, not even when posting the goddamn OP.[/QUOTE]
No, it is not simplification.
You are just refusing to answer.
And oh so you say I don't give two shits about someone being raped? If you ever talked to anyone that had been raped you would never ever say that to someone else. It is dumb.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51710416]1- Religion isnt an ideology
2- Religion is a poor indicator of behavior
3- Ethnicity is a poor indicator of behavior
4- There is an extreme overlap of people with [I]those [/I]arguments that are (more or less reasonably) alleged to be islamophobic, and people who genuinely just dislike brown people in general[/QUOTE]
1 - yes it is, lol? Religious ideology is a thing
2 - I agree, which is why I'm being specific in this case where it might be relevant
3 - I never mentioned ethnicity, ideas aren't limited to ethinicity
4 - I can hardly grasp how this makes the thought have less merit. Nazi german scientists were the first to discover the health problems caused by smoking, imagine how that overlap would make smoking cigarettes totally okay.
[editline]22nd January 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rusty100;51710431]since when did lord m become some bizarre racist?[/QUOTE]
Is this racism to you?
[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51710438]just want those that come here saying they need asylum and protection and committing crimes like rape and murder to be deported and I don't want the government to cover their crimes up.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51710460]Good, then we are on the same page. Do you think the government should cover cases up involving crimes committed by immigrants, like in We Are Stockholm 2015? Would that be good in order to not play people into the hands of SD?[/QUOTE]
No, and that's not what happened. There is no bizarre conspiracy going on, and that's exactly the shit that SD perpetuates.
[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51710483]No, it is not simplification.
You are just refusing to answer.
And oh so you say I don't give two shits about someone being raped? If you ever talked to anyone that had been raped you would never ever say that to someone else. It is dumb.[/QUOTE]
I am not refusing to answer. My answer is that I can't answer to a question that reduces such a complex problem to a yes/no.
And don't give me your "so you say"
No I don't say. I am simply stating what happened. The stuff behind "so you say" is another simplified, exagerated tool for you to have easy arguments against.
What the fuck is even the last sentence.
Are you now making posts and replies on "oh so you say" ?
I mean what the hell is this even:
[quote][I]And oh so you say I don't give two shits about someone being raped?[/I] If you ever talked to anyone that had been raped you would never ever say that to someone else. It is dumb.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=King Tiger;51710440]I don't see what good it does anyone. I'd look up Robert Putnam' study on racially diverse societies (there's less safety, there's less trust, less civic engagement, etc. in more diverse communities). I think a university in England redid the study and recreated his results about a year ago.[/QUOTE]
Multiple other studies have disproven Robert Putnam's study though. Political scientist Tom van der Meer has done three studies with several different collegues. They concluded that not ethnic diversity is problematic for social cohesion, but pauperization and inequality is. Multiple sociologists have also commented that Putnam made a technical mistake in his study, namely by not taking into account that some cultures, in his case especially the Afro-American and Latino cultures, trust institutions and society less in general to begin with. In most other studies done on this subject you don't see the far-reaching effects Putnam has described. If someone's neighbour in a mixed neighbourhood looks different from them, then they will generally trust each other less, which is quite logical when you look at human behaviour. But there won't be less civic engagement, preparedness to help others or more distrust of fellow citizens in general. This is especially true for Western-Europe though. Studies have apparently found that the U.S. is a bit of a special case when it comes to this subject
[QUOTE=Big Bang;51710503]No, and that's not what happened. There is no bizarre conspiracy going on, and that's exactly the shit that SD perpetuates.[/QUOTE]
They did cover it up though.
[quote=DN.se]The official police version outward was that the festival proceeded quietly - but the DN's audit shows that the internal alarm reports are silenced.
But when Stockholm police concluded the festival week at the Web site wrote the press informant: 'There have been relatively few crimes and taken into custody in view of the participants. "
Record number had indeed visited the police tent, but that many of the visitors were crime-affected girls was withheld in the text.[/quote]
[url]http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/overgreppen-pa-festivalen-i-stockholm-rapporterades-aldrig-vidare/[/url]
[QUOTE=Trim;51710517]I am not refusing to answer. My answer is that I can't answer to a question that reduces such a complex problem to a yes/no.
And don't give me your "so you say"
No I don't say. I am simply stating what happened. The stuff behind "so you say" is another simplified, exagerated tool for you to have easy arguments against.
What the fuck is even the last sentence.
Are you now making posts and replies on "oh so you say" ?
I mean what the hell is this even:[/QUOTE]
Big Bang was smart enough to answer my question in a smart way. He did not use simply yes or no. There are many words you can use.
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