[QUOTE=Duck M.;51711129]What do you mean by "Women aren't under represented in STEM, there just isn't as many of them in those fields"? I would be interested in an extrapolation if possible. Also, just because you didn't know any females in STEM that weren't taken aback or offended (I hesitate to use this word because of the connotations it typically draws these days) doesn't mean that there weren't any. I do remember some notable female STEM figures and astrophysicists being opposed to the shirt over the controversy on twitter. Anecdotal evidence and generalizations don't hold much water.
My point with the high school dress code mention was that those dress codes are typically representative of some standards of decency and maturity in dress. Not to an extreme degree and not always to a point that I agree with, but in general terms it's a decent litmus for our purposes.
[/QUOTE]
My point is that women aren't being kept out of STEM, they're choosing not to go into the field. As far as why goes, I'm not interested in that. The only thing that matters to me is that people have the ability to pursue whatever career they want, and it is certainly legal for a woman to be in STEM.
Well, you are correct that anecdotal evidence is not enough, I would still say that oversensitivity played a huge role here. I have to admit that my subjectivity is showing here. I hate puritanism and sex negative culture, and I certainly am not a fan of limiting the top 10% of the greatest human minds by petty things such as what a nice shirt is. His shirt was fugly, but the people who got on his ass about it lack humor in their character. My original point does stand though, which is that he was labeled as a sexist despite not being sexist.
[quote]I just rewatched the video a few times a little while ago and I dont remember them "putting white people into a singular box labelled as 'the ones in power'", could you timestamp that part for me if we're talking about the same video?[/quote]
The manner in which they adressed white people - [I]all[/I] white people was as if whiteness is a higher social class and not just skin colour.
[QUOTE]Ah, I see. I appreciate the insight. I would definitely believe that those were the initial qualms, but I would also argue that the movement was co-opted by actual sexists, misogynists, and people like Milo in a wider scale. Would you disagree?[/QUOTE]
The movement was never coopted in such a way while it was actually relevant. After it achieved its goals, yeah definitely. Like nowadays anyone who is still an active gamergater is basically just someone who hates SJW's but is also just obsessed with being counterculture and is usually pretty sexist, but more likely just a shitposter. I completely forgot Milo even had anything to do with gamergate. Apart from his support of it in the strict journalistic sense, GGer's kept him at arm's length because they didn't want his right wing politics in the movement. He's just a republican who made himself a figurehead of the alt-right before he and everyone else who followed it found out the movement's foundation is built on the ideas of white genocide and nationalism/anti multiculturalism.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;51711171]Maybe he shouldn't have worn the shirt, but that guy meant nothing but well with that shirt, and if anything it shows the importance of looking further than simply how people look. Shit blew up because sites like the verge ran stories saying his shirt just invalidated the progress of landing that spacecraft. The controversy was a product of shitty journalists who didn't think about the fact that they were calling out some random guy, and I assure you (because that guy has held presentations about the whole project) that he has inspired many more men and women to take up work in this field than he has turned away by wearing that particular shirt. The only tragedy was a bunch of sites starting a witchhunt on a guy they knew nothing about simply to drive clicks.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I actually pretty much agree with everything you say here. Media outlets definitely over-reacted with sensationalist narratives in response to the incident (as they always tend to do). The guy probably had nothing but the best of intentions, I think the issue that most people had was that he wasn't being malicious or intentionally sexist or anything. It was symptomatic of a larger societal issue.
[editline]22nd January 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=IAmIchigo;51711197]The actual sexists and misogynists are a minority of GG, in fact a lot of them left GG because they thought it was a weak movement.[/QUOTE]
How can you quantify that, though?
[QUOTE]Also do you actually believe Milo is a sexist misogynist? if yes could you just run me through why you think that as i don't understand how people have come to that conclusion.[/QUOTE]
I don't know if he's a sexist or a misogynist but he's definitely a bigot (and a total shithead to boot).
[QUOTE=Duck M.;51711209] How can you quantify that, though?
I don't know if he's a sexist or a misogynist but he's definitely a bigot (and a total shithead to boot).[/QUOTE]
It is hard to quantify, but one way you can find out is by speaking to people who are active in GG, you will be hard pressed to find members of GG that support sexism and misogyny.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;51711209]Yeah I actually pretty much agree with everything you say here. Media outlets definitely over-reacted with sensationalist narratives in response to the incident (as they always tend to do). The guy probably had nothing but the best of intentions, I think the issue that most people had was that he wasn't being malicious or intentionally sexist or anything. It was symptomatic of a larger societal issue.[/QUOTE]
Problem is that that isn't what happened. What happened was that reality was slightly more complex than what an undiscerning glimpse would show - sure, it looked like it was a symptom of deeply rooted societal issues, but in reality it was his lucky shirt, given to him by his girl friend who (as I remember it) was something as traditionally masculine as a tattoo artist. Him wearing that shirt had nothing to do with objectifying women at all, but it looked that way, and therefore he should be burned at the stake.
Sexism exists, but this is not an example of it. This looked like sexism because people refuse to believe that reality may be more complex than the headline "THIS GUY'S SHIRT IS UGLY AND HE'S TRYING TO KEEP WOMEN OUT OF SCIENCE". I'd call myself a feminist, but mindless, prejudiced attacks on hapless people will breed nothing but contempt for the movement.
[QUOTE=wewt!;51711204]My point is that women aren't being kept out of STEM, they're choosing not to go into the field. As far as why goes, I'm not interested in that. The only thing that matters to me is that people have the ability to pursue whatever career they want, and it is certainly legal for a woman to be in STEM.
Well, you are correct that anecdotal evidence is not enough, I would still say that oversensitivity played a huge role here. I have to admit that my subjectivity is showing here. I hate puritanism and sex negative culture, and I certainly am not a fan of limiting the top 10% of the greatest human minds by petty things such as what a nice shirt is. His shirt was fugly, but the people who got on his ass about it lack humor in their character. My original point does stand though, which is that he was labeled as a sexist despite not being sexist.[/QUOTE]
I think you misunderstand what people mean when they say that women are "being kept out of STEM fields". They arent literally being turned away by bouncers (or the law for that matter), they're being kept away by societal stigmas, biases and pressures that form the wider, subtle gender roles of our culture. Women didn't use to be under-represented in Computer Science, for instance, but over time it's become an increasingly male dominated field. Most research would suggest that girls are not inherently less interested in math and the sciences, so what could the underlying cause for this trend be? Things are improving, in my experience, but we still have a ways to go.
I'm also opposed to sex negative culture, but in a feminist sense that's focused on empowerment and self-worth. There is a difference in a woman choosing to be promiscuous and sexually active and a woman being objectified from a patriarchal perspective.
[QUOTE]The manner in which they adressed white people - [I]all[/I] white people was as if whiteness is a higher social class and not just skin colour.[/QUOTE]
I think that's more in your own personal perspective honestly. How you perceive their tone and mannerisms is likely different than how I perceive them. For instance, I think that the video was more light-hearted and from the perspective of a friend telling their buddy about something he can improve on in an earnest and well-meaning intention. I have no doubt that you would disagree with this interpretation, but my experiences within my culture and community delineates just that.
[QUOTE]The movement was never coopted in such a way while it was actually relevant. After it achieved its goals, yeah definitely. Like nowadays anyone who is still an active gamergater is basically just someone who hates SJW's but is also just obsessed with being counterculture and is usually pretty sexist, but more likely just a shitposter. I completely forgot Milo even had anything to do with gamergate. Apart from his support of it in the strict journalistic sense, GGer's kept him at arm's length because they didn't want his right wing politics in the movement. He's just a republican who made himself a figurehead of the alt-right before he and everyone else who followed it found out the movement's foundation is built on the ideas of white genocide and nationalism/anti multiculturalism.[/QUOTE]
I'm glad you can see where I'm coming from on that, at least. The difficult part is defining when and where GG "achieved its goals", or if it has at all.
And yeah, GG was actually Milo's big breakthrough if I recall correctly. I think there's something of note in how much support he garnered through his politics and personality in the context of GG, though, that might say something about the movement's participants. In what I observed over these past 3 years, the rise of the alt right was, if not a direct consequence of GG, a significant part of it.
[QUOTE=Fourier;51711193]Sweden truly does have cases of covering shit up, same as Germany (though in Germany isn't so bad).
Though deportation sends wrong message. If you deport them, this means to them they can rape, then get deported and that is.. should just jail them for long time I think.[/QUOTE]
They get jailed first, then deported and likely a lifetime ban on returning.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;51711285]I think you misunderstand what people mean when they say that women are "being kept out of STEM fields". They arent literally being turned away by bouncers (or the law for that matter), they're being kept away by societal stigmas, biases and pressures that form the wider, subtle gender roles of our culture. Women didn't use to be under-represented in Computer Science, for instance, but over time it's become an increasingly male dominated field. Most research would suggest that girls are not inherently less interested in math and the sciences, so what could the underlying cause for this trend be? Things are improving, in my experience, but we still have a ways to go.
I'm also opposed to sex negative culture, but in a feminist sense that's focused on empowerment and self-worth. There is a difference in a woman choosing to be promiscuous and sexually active and a woman being objectified from a patriarchal perspective.[/QUOTE]
The inherent cause of why women are choosing certain fields of labor is a very interesting debate but it is honestly too lengthy for me to discuss it here and now. Sexism exists, but I believe that society as a whole is accepting towards people doing what they want in life and that it will get better, mostly because people are slowly realizing that someone should be selected for work because of their skills, not because of a dumb diversity quota.
[quote]I think that's more in your own personal perspective honestly. How you perceive their tone and mannerisms is likely different than how I perceive them. For instance, I think that the video was more light-hearted and from the perspective of a friend telling their buddy about something he can improve on in an earnest and well-meaning intention. I have no doubt that you would disagree with this interpretation, but my experiences within my culture and community delineates just that.[/quote]
Actually I think I'm just failing to express myself properly. Basically, they were overgeneralizing heavily.
[quote]I'm glad you can see where I'm coming from on that, at least. The difficult part is defining when and where GG "achieved its goals", or if it has at all.[/quote]
Oh it was quite succesful in a way, Eurogamer restructured its entire website, loads of sites had to start putting up disclaimers, Kotaku was also shaken up heavily (though it remains a shit website so ehh), lots of people moved over to alternative gaming press such as youtubers who did follow ethical behavior. I'd say that it's biggest success would be sinking all the current games media, but honestly games media is doing a great job of that on its own. Nowadays it's proper legacy can be found in sites like [url]www.deepfreeze.it[/url], which keeps games journalists under intense scrutiny.
[quote]And yeah, GG was actually Milo's big breakthrough if I recall correctly. I think there's something of note in how much support he garnered through his politics and personality in the context of GG, though, that might say something about the movement's participants. In what I observed over these past 3 years, the rise of the alt right was, if not a direct consequence of GG, a significant part of it.[/quote]
Like I said, most of GG didn't really like Milo, it is unfair to associate them with him and his political views. They only appreciated having someone signal boosting their message about ethics. After GG ended, its corpse slowly turned into just a bunch of alt-right /b/tards shitposting, they were a small irrelevant minority festering underneath the massive GG movement, and they were also the only ones who remained to inherit it once the movement "ended"
[QUOTE=wewt!;51710488]
Is this racism to you?[/QUOTE]
yeah. there's a weird obsession with only the crimes that minorities and ethnicities commit. he's doing that thing where he's hiding his very clear bias by not using any specifically racist terms, all the while servicing a very obviously racist mindset. this weird focus on deporting people speaks volumes (look at his thread and post history, there's a clear obsession there).
is anyone gonna keep pretending that's not happening? like for real?
[QUOTE=Rusty100;51711650]yeah. there's a weird obsession with only the crimes that minorities and ethnicities commit. he's doing that thing where he's hiding his very clear bias by not using any specifically racist terms, all the while servicing a very obviously racist mindset. this weird focus on deporting people speaks volumes (look at his thread and post history, there's a clear obsession there).[/QUOTE]
I don't care which topics interest him more than others, rather the ideas he propagates within them, and honestly that statement itself isn't him proposing a racist act. Even if it was discriminatory, it'd be nationalistic and not racist.
[QUOTE=wewt!;51711702]nationalistic and not racist.[/QUOTE]
we're splitting hairs at this point
[QUOTE=Rusty100;51711753]we're splitting hairs at this point[/QUOTE]
There is a difference. Regardless, that's not the main point of my post anyway.
It's always good when the first post in a thread about gang rape is questioning the poster's politics.
I fucking hate you people.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;51711650]yeah. there's a weird obsession with only the crimes that minorities and ethnicities commit. he's doing that thing where he's hiding his very clear bias by not using any specifically racist terms, all the while servicing a very obviously racist mindset. this weird focus on deporting people speaks volumes (look at his thread and post history, there's a clear obsession there).
is anyone gonna keep pretending that's not happening? like for real?[/QUOTE]
Honestly there's nothing you can do about it except continue to call out his arguments and not get overheated when he makes bad posts. Not saying you're getting overheated but there are a lot of left-wing users who call him out on his shit, usually with inflammatory language, and end up getting banned. It also helps if you don't do what that earlier guy did, assume his intentions because he can go "*GASP* HOW DARE YOU? I DIDN'T EVEN IMPLY SUCH THINGS!". He's an ex-mod. He knows where the line is.
Continue to debate him if you have the time and mindset to do so, otherwise just ignore his posts.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;51711650]yeah. there's a weird obsession with [b]only the crimes that minorities and ethnicities commit.[/b][/QUOTE]
Are you referring to violent crime..?
Crime that specifically destroys, ruins, degrades, or literally kills other innocent individuals through no fault of their own shouldn't be the priority?
Are you seriously downplaying rape to defend harmful immigration policy?
[QUOTE=Rusty100;51711753]we're splitting hairs at this point[/QUOTE]
Sounds like you need to educate yourself on what nationalism is and how it works, especially in Europe which for hundreds of years has been split into countries, each with their distinct culture and history, and yet only separated from one another by thin borders. Nationalism is perfectly normal in Europe and in fact fundamental to how the nations, complete with its peoples and cultures, are structured and separated from each other and how we relate to and identify with them. I would argue most Europeans are subconsciously nationalists to some degree, they just do not think about it in such terms.
Nationalism and racism is definitely not the same thing. You can be one or the other and you can be both, but it is not the same thing.
[QUOTE=Hellsten;51711989]Sounds like you need to educate yourself on what nationalism is and how it works, especially in Europe which for hundreds of years has been split into countries, each with their distinct culture and history, and yet only separated from one another by thin borders. Nationalism is perfectly normal in Europe and in fact fundamental to how the nations, complete with its peoples and cultures, are structured and separated from each other and how we relate to and identify with them. I would argue most Europeans are subconsciously nationalists to some degree, they just do not think about it in such terms.
Nationalism and racism is definitely not the same thing. You can be one or the other and you can be both, but it is not the same thing.[/QUOTE]
Treating nationalism and racism as the same thing is exactly the kind of rhetoric that alienates people from sympathising with progressive beliefs.
[QUOTE=mooman1080;51711857]It's always good when the first post in a thread about gang rape is questioning the poster's politics.
I fucking hate you people.[/QUOTE]
Right? Who would post that shit
[QUOTE=Big Bang;51709925]Yes. Assuming somebody is a criminal just because they're foreign is xenophobia. Assuming ethnic Swedes aren't capable of doing crime (Despite the Uppsala-maffian being a thing? That's the same city where this crime took place) is idiotic. Discrimination against people because of their origin, their creed or their race is always unjustified, it's against the basis of any democratic principles.[/QUOTE]
It has nothing to do with someone being "foreign", or the color of their skin, or their religion, or whatever easy scapegoat a lot of people seem to jump to so they can just shout "racist" or "islamophobic" or what the fuck ever while they bury their head in the sand.
Instead it's about someone being from a culture that is vastly different from western culture, that is by western standards is barbaric in many ways. That is the only point that matters. Mass accepting people from regions of the world that are predominantly are of such a culture has unsurprisingly caused issues. Issues that might have been manageable if handled correctly and with less people, but not in its current state.
And before someone goes "but it's our duty to help these people", they could have been helped by setting up actual militarily enforced safe zones in the affected regions that would have prevented the refugees from having to make the dangerous journey to Europe in the first place while also preventing this clash of cultures and protecting the European nation's civilians from what's happening right now.
But Europe's leaders didn't think; they acted on a in the name of feelgood, and the aftermath is a significant strain on Europe's economic resources and the rise in the right.
Moreover, Europe hasn't even solved the problem; it's like an orphanage is on fire and Europe is taking in children who escaped from the fire rather than putting the fire out and rebuilding the orphanage.
Cut and edited [b]video showing the rapist[/b], no one is surprised, admitting in broken Swedish to the rape live on facebook after committing it , shortly after police arrive.
[media]https://youtu.be/ad4f0FijWY4[/media]
Translation:
Rapist: Listen I am going to fuck out tonight (fucka ur - ghetto-Swedish slang).
Victim: Oh my god.
Rapist: I swear on my mother I am going to make chaos now here. I am going to make chaos with this, I don't give a shit in which who I am fighting with she has already said her word who she was raped by.
Victim: You don't do something like this.
Rapist: Me! You then? This have done it, you already said who you been raped by.
Police: Hello!
Victim: Hello.
Police: What is it that have happened here?
Victim: Well there...
Police: If one can ask that question.
Unintelligible talking in the bg
Don't give shit about the source, Fria Tider an alternate news source yeah (I don't think state sponsored media will post this), but because THIS is from the live-video it doesn't matter if it was BBC that posted it you cannot explain this away. Edited first post to include the video and translation.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;51711650]yeah. there's a weird obsession with only the crimes that minorities and ethnicities commit. he's doing that thing where he's hiding his very clear bias by not using any specifically racist terms, all the while servicing a very obviously racist mindset. this weird focus on deporting people speaks volumes (look at his thread and post history, there's a clear obsession there).
is anyone gonna keep pretending that's not happening? like for real?[/QUOTE]
Mainly a few people like him and at least one mod, refer to his visitor messages for that.
[QUOTE=Sunkite;51710843]God damn. This makes me sick to the stomach.
Getting not only gangraped, but the ones doing it even stream it live.
What kind of an emotionless monster would do this to another person?
[editline]23rd January 2017[/editline]
Like, shit. This is absolutely horrifying.[/QUOTE]
Because it was livestreamed the criminals can be prosecuted easier.
[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51711012]Usually both parties present data as proof for what they are arguing about. I been doing my part, the other part, not everyone much.[/QUOTE]
How have you been doing your part when I needed to ask you for where your info is coming from first?
How have you been doing your part when you told me to google the stuff that you happen to say?
How have you been doing your part after page one when I asked you
[QUOTE=Trim;51709834]The very source of that article you posted says that the problem exists since 2000. Is this also "tons of refugees" ? For 14 years?
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_Are_Sthlm_sexual_assaults[/url]
[editline]22nd January 2017[/editline]
Do you have anything else than an autotranslated article where one can not find the study it cites?[/QUOTE]
You also still haven't been telling me to google how after 14 years of existing problems suddenly 100% of the perpetrators have been refugees and how magically 100% of these have been found and identified as refugees when the usual clear-up rate is more like 60%(for that refer to the source I posted).
You also still haven't explained questions about that weird "gangrape" website you have been posting that lacks impressum, methods(name identification for fucks sake) and credits.
All you have been doing when questioned about your posts, opinions and sources is shifting discussion to the next lower, simplified and popularistic level until we arrived at your "well you still didn't answer my question" post.
Is your answer to all of that that I neeed to google it myself as well?
[QUOTE=bunguer;51709704]Jesus fuck, it's like some of you are more interested in playing identity politics than talking about the fucking rape and solutions to it - just look at the first post and how many 'stars' it got.
You want to far-right to rise? Because you are only fueling them with that type of comment: "bust a nut all over your keyboard if they turn out to be brown ".[/QUOTE]
Let those on the 'left' keep on with their ignorance, they're losing all over the west and will continue to do so until they act rationally.
[QUOTE=Trim;51713205]How have you been doing your part when I needed to ask you for where your info is coming from first?
How have you been doing your part when you told me to google the stuff that you happen to say?
How have you been doing your part after page one when I asked you
You also still haven't been telling me to google how after 14 years of existing problems suddenly 100% of the perpetrators have been refugees and how magically 100% of these have been found and identified as refugees when the usual clear-up rate is more like 60%(for that refer to the source I posted).
You also still haven't explained questions about that weird "gangrape" website you have been posting that lacks impressum, methods(name identification for fucks sake) and credits.
All you have been doing when questioned about your posts, opinions and sources is shifting discussion to the next lower, simplified and popularistic level until we arrived at your "well you still didn't answer my question" post.
Is your answer to all of that that I neeed to google it myself as well?[/QUOTE]
As I said before, I never mentioned the previous 14 years and only you did, I was only talking about how during 2015 it was and has been documented to been covered up by the police. What you completely missed was that I was talking about that it was actively covered up, with the motivation that the perpetrators were all immigrants (as stated in sources you asked me to post before) and all this in order to as quoted from police "not play people into the hands of SD".
When I been questioned, I been providing proof. And I also for the gangrapesweden site linked the "what the site is about and how they did the data" so if you haven't read that then sorry that is your own fault.
And you keep dancing around the question which others have answered fully and well.
[quote]Oh and I want you and all the rest to answer the one question you never EVER answer or even touch but dance around: If someone immigrates here, says they need protection and asylum and then commit crimes like robbery, assault, rape or murder - should they be allowed to stay or be thrown out? If they should stay, why?[/quote]
Also, you're Overhauser aka Killuah, right? I just suspect, since he was banned shortly before you registered - and your posts use the same asinine nagging-rhetoric when you get squeezed into a tight spot you can't get yourself out from.
[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51713242]Also, you're Overhauser aka Killuah, right? I just suspect, since he was banned shortly before you registered - and your posts use the same asinine nagging-rhetoric when you get squeezed into a tight spot you can't get yourself out from.[/QUOTE]Well whaddaya know, your libdar is right on point.
[editline]23rd January 2017[/editline]
Goddamn the rest of this thread is like looking into an open cesspit.
[QUOTE=bunguer;51709704]Jesus fuck, it's like some of you are more interested in playing identity politics than talking about the fucking rape and solutions to it - just look at the first post and how many 'stars' it got.
You want to far-right to rise? Because you are only fueling them with that type of comment: "bust a nut all over your keyboard if they turn out to be brown ".[/QUOTE]
Admittedly not the best way to open discussion but I don't see why this is only being called out because it fits some 'leftist rhetoric'? Should blatantly xenophobic and racist attitudes be excused because these people know no better and its condescending or something? Like was already highlighted, OP was clearly as guilty if not more of what you're accusing this poster of doing, hence the bust nut post. It's like a weird new high horse that people like to sit on.
[QUOTE=!LORD M!;51713242]As I said before, I never mentioned the previous 14 years [/quote]
That's the point. You are actively ignoring that the problem isn't new and has existed for 14 years and that's why it can't be solely attributed to refugees or immigrants.
[quote]When I been questioned, I been providing proof. And I also for the gangrapesweden site linked the "what the site is about and how they did the data" so if you haven't read that then sorry that is your own fault.[/quote]
I am not asking how the site was done. I am saying that they lack an impressum, any references or credibility and the fishy "name analysis" that other posters have been criticizing before.
You haven't replied to
[QUOTE=Big Bang;51710280]I just wanna comment on how awful this source is. It says there's 66 perpetrators who are "icke Svensk", non-Swedish, but the way this is estimated is merely through the name, through some so called name analysis. It even states how those deemed "non Swedish" could be born in Sweden, making them, you know, Swedish; they just don't have a Swedish name.[/QUOTE]
And I have explained why I don't answer your question:
[QUOTE=Trim;51710471]That's because you pose that question that simplifies the issue far to much for three reasons:
-to distract from the questions on your awful posts and useless "sources" on page one and further
-to change the subject to "deportation"
-drag people into your simple way of thinking and arguing
Notice how we aren't talking about your awful "but nobody is caring about the victim look how self righteous they are" post anymore where for a moment you forgot that you weren't either, not even when posting the goddamn OP.[/QUOTE]
Your reaction was a Silly Sil level fit of "oh so you say I ...." instead of acknowledging that deportation is a really complicated issue in constitutional democracies because it involves literally hundreds of different factors and scenarios of which safety and cooperation of the home-country as well as the need for a lawful conviction and trial are only the tip of the iceberg. There are social scientists and expert groups debating this issue right now, you asking for a simple yes/no answer is nothing but demagogic rhetoric that we know all too well.
Your "yes/no" question is reducing the issue and indeed is simplifying it. I am not dancing around, I am merely not ready to debate on such grounds. You either include issues like the aforementioned ones plus additional ones like missing papers, humanitarian issues, punishment avoidance and most of all the fact the bigotry of treating people differently depending on their descent.
I don't know about Sweden but the German state is founded on the premise that all people are equal in front of the law.
I am willing to discuss issues like this in a nuanced and intelligent way but not in demagogic and simplisitc black and white terms like you want to.
Until then, it seems this is not welcome anyway(or rather I am not welcome anyway) so good luck to all :/
[highlight](User was permabanned for this post ("Ant of perma'd user Killuah/appeal rather than make another alt" - Sgt Doom))[/highlight]
^
lol, you really fight for this huh
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