'Polite conversation' course for young women sparks backlash - Polidicks

[QUOTE=SIRIUS;52006582]A class just for girls that teaches them how to do makeup, hairstyles and dinner place settings? It says it's so that they can get through school"with self esteem intact" shouldn't they be able to do that anyway? Why not try and change the hyper competitive, shallow social atmosphere of schools instead? [editline]24th March 2017[/editline] Just for girls genius[/QUOTE] I think we can all agree here that it would be good to offer boys a class as well. Actually, many teens have self esteem issues growing up. It goes along with the social development and hormonal/bodily changes. We can't directly change how students interact socially outside of class, but we can encourage them to start thinking more critically about the way they see themselves and others, and the way they interact with others.

Honestly, young people (both male and female) need etiquette and financial classes to prepare them for the professional world after their schooling. From what they detail in the article it doesn't sound like something out of the Stepford Wives ('table setting' is the only one that really conveyed the image of a 50s housewife).

[QUOTE=TheJoey;52006603]that's not the point. it's not about "only women." it's a course started by a woman to help young women deal with their self esteem and stop worrying about what they SHOULD look like based on standards they see in the media around them. so instead of following Cosmo's opinions and changing yourself, they find ways to make themselves feel better about their self image based on how they currently [i]are[/i].[/QUOTE] So where's the class for boys to do the same thing? I'm okay with a self esteem class as long as there's one for everyone, but if boys are expected to just suck it up and deal with it they're kinda just enforcing gender stereotypes and that's where I start having a problem.

Finally, a way for young women to learn how to share an egg cream at the malt shop with thier steady.

[QUOTE=-Ben_Wolfe-;52006658][b]Honestly, young people (both male and female) need etiquette and financial classes to prepare them for the professional world after their schooling[/b]. From what they detail in the article it doesn't sound like something out of the Stepford Wives ('table setting' is the only one that really conveyed the image of a 50s housewife).[/QUOTE] This, so much. I'd have gotten so much more use out of learning how to file taxes or how to succeed in a job interview than reading Shakespeare or the math concepts I've already forgotten.

[QUOTE=NixNax123;52006214]Why would we teach ass-backwards gender norms in schools when they have no place in modern society? There's a reason sexism and racism was prevalent in the 50s, it's because shit like this is normalized as being "a healthy boy /girl"[/QUOTE] I take it you have zero problems with strip clubs then? Because if you do, you are fucking hypocritical.

[QUOTE=gk99;52006699]So where's the class for boys to do the same thing? I'm okay with a self esteem class as long as there's one for everyone, but if boys are expected to just suck it up and deal with it they're kinda just enforcing gender stereotypes and that's where I start having a problem.[/QUOTE] i don't know but i'm guessing there are schools that help turn boys into gentlemen in the UK. as for classes for boys' self esteem, there might be some if you search but probably not like this one. this one was made for girls, though, and there's nothing terrible about that. the backlash is silly. the photo in the article is even a little misleading, as is the headliner. everything about this stinks like bait.

If only there were courses on how being an awkward recluse makes your chances with the ladies even more slim. I still project maximum neckbeardage when I'm not aware of it.

[QUOTE=SIRIUS;52006600]Their goal sounds fine, so let's let them teach girls that what they need for self esteem is to be as constantly good looking as possible, and if people make fun of them, it's THEIR fault, not the bully[/QUOTE] You can tell kids that trying to make yourself look good doesn't matter all you want, but in the real world, trying to look decent makes for a much happier life.

[QUOTE=NixNax123;52006214]Why would we teach ass-backwards gender norms in schools when they have no place in modern society? There's a reason sexism and racism was prevalent in the 50s, it's because shit like this is normalized as being "a healthy boy /girl"[/QUOTE] the entire idea that genders are fluid is perpetrated by the prevalence of gender issues being more openly talked about today, but in no way does that discussion influence the fact that 90% of the population is heterosexual, and correspond their gender with their sex - and guess what, these people are going to be fundamentally different in many ways [editline]24th March 2017[/editline] the point should be not to shun anyone or any lifestyle, but having a broad sweeping "trend" of how to live life is impossible to deter. in theory with proper manners you could go back to the 50's style of things, provided there is due respect for anyone not feeling like it is their thing. forcefully shooting down ideas like this in the OP is very dangerous, and hypocritical to a degree. let people live their life as they want, and do no harm. applies to any side of any conflict like this. [editline]24th March 2017[/editline] if I start a 80s hippie disco band, would you want to shoot it down because it promotes groupie/roadie culture?

Any class that helps young people, girl or boy, learn a valuable life skill like applying for a job, maintaining a tidy living space, cooking for one's self or company, and just generally not acting like a douche in public seems like a valuable course.

People seem to forget that cotillions are a thing, and having one in essence at a public/private school is somehow a tragedy now?

[QUOTE=Aman;52006115]God forbid people learn to make themselves look pretty or carry themselves. I'd much rather a hairy frumpy awkward feminist.[/QUOTE] Not really schools job to police fashion.

I so wish this was a college class I could take. Hair style and polite conversation are the exact two things I want to know, but there are no courses for that.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;52007260]Not really schools job to police fashion.[/QUOTE] They're not policing anything, it's an optional course teaching manners and etiquette to young women.. Who gives a fuck?

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;52007260]Not really schools job to police fashion.[/QUOTE] There is mention of fashion but specifically to help students find clothes that suits them well. Knowing how to dressing appropriately is a valuable life skill that some young people are interested in. No one is enforcing anything

My only problem with this is that it aids in stagnating culture to have taught standards. Behaviours and such should evolve naturally with the times. Gender politics be damned.

It really depends on the content of the class. A class on actually bettering yourself as a person isn't remotely bad. I know that japan for example reinforces a lot of ethical views through education. Of course, these classes have a pretty large capacity to be be downright malicious. Because the truth is that how you "better" yourself is a pretty subjective thing in a lot of ways.

I wish I had a social etiquette class when I was younger, it's not a inherently bad idea if you keep the blatant sexist shit out of it [I]but[/I] the article already said its doing that.

[QUOTE=TheJoey;52006592]so it's sexist against boys?[/QUOTE] I obviously haven't seen this class, so I don't know if it's sexist. But it brings to mind some pretty antiquated standards, that have traditionally been harsher on women than men, and I hope it wasn't created with the goal of perpetuating them. Regardless of who gets the short end of the stick though, I think those standards are sexist against both.

I highly doubt there is a concerted effort to reinforce old gender norms, but this is so vague I cant even tell what exactly they are planning on teaching in this course. At first it seems alright talking about women's history and web design (?), but then it throws in dinner party etiquette and 'polite conversation' which sounds like a completely different course. It also seems to avoid the concern over normalization of gender roles by stating it improves women's self-esteem instead of just outright denying that traditional roles will be enforced. Like it could be a really helpful course, but its so ambiguous that I honestly have no idea.

[QUOTE=SIRIUS;52006553]Yeah, this class is bs. It's so obviously meant to reinforce outdated sexist roles it's not funny[/QUOTE] holy SHIT this OPTIONAL class is forcing these girls into sexist roles!!

[QUOTE=mopman999;52008917]holy SHIT this OPTIONAL class is forcing these girls into sexist roles!![/QUOTE] It's existence legitimizes it, it just being in the school endorses the stupid ideas

[QUOTE=SIRIUS;52009008]It's existence legitimizes it, it just being in the school endorses the stupid ideas[/QUOTE] Not really.

[QUOTE=SIRIUS;52009008]It's existence legitimizes it, it just being in the school endorses the stupid ideas[/QUOTE] Just like if there are hamburgers in the school lunch it legitimizes/endorses poor eating choices? It's a choice, not a requirement

[QUOTE=SIRIUS;52006600]Their goal sounds fine, so let's let them teach girls that what they need for self esteem is to be as constantly good looking as possible, and if people make fun of them, it's THEIR fault, not the bully[/QUOTE] Did you read the article at all? The class will touch on fashion that fits the individual, reinforcing identity and increasing self-esteem, which teens are often lacking. They aren't holding them to the same standards as models and shit either, so I'm confused on why you bothered trying to make it sound like it was the primary reason for creating the class

[QUOTE=SIRIUS;52009008]It's existence legitimizes it, it just being in the school endorses the stupid ideas[/QUOTE] I feel like this is a common thread in social justice and identity politics of today: If you can't prove something is actually actively harmful or bad, just say it "endorses" or "normalizes" something and wipe your hands of the entire debate. Luckily it makes it really easy to pick out who I should and should not bother paying any attention to!

[QUOTE=srobins;52009329]I feel like this is a common thread in social justice and identity politics of today: If you can't prove something is actually actively harmful or bad, just say it "endorses" or "normalizes" something and wipe your hands of the entire debate. Luckily it makes it really easy to pick out who I should and should not bother paying any attention to![/QUOTE] well first off, i already said why its harmful. the fact that the school endorses this class and its fucked up methods was in response to it being optional. but yeah good to know who you don't want to try debating

[QUOTE=SIRIUS;52009386]well first off, i already said why its harmful. the fact that the school endorses this class and its fucked up methods was in response to it being optional. but yeah good to know who you don't want to try debating[/QUOTE] [quote]Her students will discover how self-improvement techniques can enhance their natural beauty and express confidence without over-shadowing who they are by: - analyzing the shape of their faces to determine which hairstyle is most flattering - assessing their body shape to choose clothing styles that are the most complimentary - completing an online shopping activity to identify their own personal style[/quote] Whoa.. Those are some fucked up methods. The worst I could say about this course is that it's trite and useless for a child with proper parents and a sense of individuality maybe, but if a young girl wants to take a class to learn how to dress and behave then once again, who gives a fuck? If you are a person who disagrees with the idea behind the class, don't take it. I don't necessarily agree with every class taught at my university and the world-views they present, but I don't cause a stink over it, I just don't take the class.

[QUOTE=srobins;52009416]Whoa.. Those are some fucked up methods. The worst I could say about this course is that it's trite and useless for a child with proper parents and a sense of individuality maybe, but if a young girl wants to take a class to learn how to dress and behave then once again, who gives a fuck? If you are a person who disagrees with the idea behind the class, don't take it. I don't necessarily agree with every class taught at my university and the world-views they present, but I don't cause a stink over it, I just don't take the class.[/QUOTE] It existing says that there is a need for girls to learn to behave more properly. and ONLY girls. It adds to the overall surrounding voice saying that girls need to go an extra mile to be treated the same as guys