Israel using flechette shells that spray out a thousand tiny metal pieces in Gaza
112 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;45449088]Wait, these aren't against Geneva convention? Madness.[/QUOTE]
pretty sure flechette rounds are
I'm honestly not sure if I'd rather have these rounds or canister rounds fired at me by a tank. That thing looks dangerous as fuck.
Weren't they just caught using white phosphorous bombs? That's a shitload worse than flachette rounds.
This conflict is getting out of hand, not a glimpse of chivalry over the smoke and blood of unending carnage.
If there's enough power behind the flechette darts, they're powerful enough to pierce your average body armor. They can also be hollowed out or milled so a biological agent can be used.
They're great for anti-personel use, where you want maximum casualties but little environmental damage.
[QUOTE=mugofdoom;45449317]Weren't they just caught using white phosphorous bombs? That's a shitload worse than flachette rounds.[/QUOTE]
Israel (and a most standing militaries) use white phosphorous for smoke generating and illumination purposes. It's still ethically dubious to be exploding the stuff above a densely urban civilian area, but they aren't outright dropping bombs of the stuff.
Oh so is it better that Israel would use things like the HE shell and just use basically a BOMB to wipe a neighborhood slick? Darn those flechettes, being arguably more centralized and less destructive than regular shrapnel or high-explosive rounds, only ~evil israel~ would use it :c
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;45449309]Well not precisely, canister shot is good for destroying buildings and damaging vehicles as well because of the sheer mass of the ball-bearings it shoots
These things are bollocks against armor or concrete at combat ranges because they don't have enough velocity or weight behind them to do serious damage, but to an unarmored civilian one of these will have little to no issue flying straight through their body with no resistance
It's a weapon designed for maximum range and maximum damage against soft targets, and nothing else. Does almost no damage to buildings or vehicles but will turn civilians into a pin-cushion[/QUOTE]
ah I see.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;45449403]Oh so is it better that Israel would use things like the Mk82 and just use a giant BOMB to wipe a neighborhood slick? Darn those flechettes, being arguably more centralized and less destructive than regular shrapnel or high-explosive rounds, only ~evil israel~ would use it :c[/QUOTE]
I'm not condemning the use of this stuff just because it's Israel doing it. If it were the Coalition in Afghanistan I'd have the same reaction. It's not so much about the weapon as its employment in a populated urban zone.
And you can't fire GBUs from a fucking tank. Shit, the 3 MMGs and the mortars on the Merkavas are enough when you're fighting guys with AKs and a couple RPGs here and there.
~evil israel~ hate time; They probably want to minimize damage to infrastructure via these round so they don't have as much work to do once they've annexed Gaza as well.
I'm not sure whether or not I could even call that a joke.
[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;45449443]I'm not condemning the use of this stuff just because it's Israel doing it. If it were the Coalition in Afghanistan I'd have the same reaction.[/QUOTE]
Should they stick to the WP or HE instead?
snip
[QUOTE=draugur;45449489] which are small enough that when they enter the body they are known to travel through veins in your body until they reach a bend and then explode outward, causing massive amounts of bleeding. [/QUOTE]
source on this because that sounds like TOTAL bullshit
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;45449461]Should they stick to the WP or HE instead?[/QUOTE]
In the case of HE, yeah actually. Hamas will likely be fighting from inside buildings. It was mentioned in this thread that these flechette rounds aren't capable of penetrating concrete walls which is probably what most of Gaza is made up of. An HE shell would do a much better job of killing or incapacitating someone in such hard cover
[editline]20th July 2014[/editline]
If the point of using these shells was to minimise collateral damage, why wouldn't they just use AP shells? Impractical yes, but that's irrelevant when the opposition could hardly do anything to damage the tank firing it. They'd also be nowhere near as indiscriminate
Even better, how about not using the main guns on the tanks in the first place.
Even more betterer, don't launch a full scale ground invasion with the intention of collapsing tunnels and killing the 200 guys still launching their shit rockets at Israel. What ever happened to Mossad, I thought those guys loved assassinations?
I wonder what the ratio of Hamas/Insurgent to civilian casualties is
[QUOTE=Timebomb575;45449506]source on this because that sounds like TOTAL bullshit[/QUOTE]
At first I thought he was talking about the reason why the Hague Convention was started. Namely because the creation of hollow-point ammunition that had explosive charges inside of them.
Make it stoop
[QUOTE=Timebomb575;45449506]source on this because that sounds like TOTAL bullshit[/QUOTE]
[url]http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp[/url]
[QUOTE=deadoon;45449747][url]http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp[/url][/QUOTE]
how is this relevant to what I asked lol
[QUOTE=Timebomb575;45449888]how is this relevant to what I asked lol[/QUOTE]
Sorry I thought you were replying to the hollowpoint thing.
Misread 1 post and everything fell apart in my head and misinterpreted the whole situation.
I really should not be posting when I have been awake for less than an hour or two.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;45449258]Exactly. But the problem is that the other weapon of choice is 105mm HE shell being launched at a certain building. Putting a pretty massive hole into a house, and sending shrapnel all around.[/QUOTE]
someone should tell israel that a building isn't exactly an underground tunnel
i like that the primary defense for the use of flechettes here is "well at least they're not injuring civilians with HE shells or like THIS!!" as if that makes this okay
[QUOTE=Combineguy;45450202]i like that the primary defense for the use of flechettes here is "well at least they're not injuring civilians with HE shells or like THIS!!" as if that makes this okay[/QUOTE]
There was pre-warning not to be in the area, they're literally in the street after warnings during a conflict. These shells are far better then blowing up someones home/destroying buildings.
[QUOTE=Jonzky;45450483]There was pre-warning not to be in the area, they're literally in the street after warnings during a conflict. These shells are far better then blowing up someones home/destroying buildings.[/QUOTE]
so if I give you a warning it's okay if I bomb your house?
I think the objectives of these little campaigns is to kill as many Palestinians as they can before the world barks at them and makes them stop again.
[QUOTE=Jonzky;45450483]There was pre-warning not to be in the area, they're literally in the street after warnings during a conflict. These shells are far better then blowing up someones home/destroying buildings.[/QUOTE]I wouldn't exactly say using weapons that are incredibly good at destroying soft targets are better than using weapons that blow up homes, but hey, they're blowing up people's homes anyway. The fact that Israel warns people before they attack (which, as footage shows, is not always a reasonable amount of time to get out of the area) does not remove the ethical responsibility of the IDF to not kill civilians, which they have failed to do time and time again.
[QUOTE=Pawnstick;45450495]so if I give you a warning it's okay if I bomb your house?[/QUOTE]
If I was warned I'd not hesitate about dropping my shit and getting as far away as possible.
[QUOTE=Vasili;45450508]I think the objectives of these little campaigns is to kill as many Palestinians as they can before the world barks at them and makes them stop again.[/QUOTE]
If thats the aim then they're doing a pretty shitty job (given their capabilities) - However it is Hamas' aim to kill as many civilians as possible.
[QUOTE=Jonzky;45450535]If thats the aim then they're doing a pretty shitty job (given their capabilities) - However it is Hamas' aim to kill as many civilians as possible.[/QUOTE]If that's Hamas' aim, then Israel is doing a really good job of doing it for them during this latest conflict.
[QUOTE=Combineguy;45450529]I wouldn't exactly say using weapons that are incredibly good at destroying soft targets are better than using weapons that blow up homes, but hey, they're blowing up people's homes anyway. The fact that Israel warns people before they attack (which, as footage shows, is not always a reasonable amount of time to get out of the area) does not remove the ethical responsibility of the IDF to not kill civilians, which they have failed to do time and time again.[/QUOTE]
When you think about the innocent Palestinians its horrific to imagine what some of them will go through. Loosing homes/business' and family, the key point is until Hamas' stops firing the rockets Israel needs to do what it does to try to stop them.
Edit:
[QUOTE=Combineguy;45450540]If that's Hamas' aim, then Israel is doing a really good job of doing it for them during this latest conflict.[/QUOTE]
Meant Israeli civilians. Even if the rockets are largely ineffective now, they still fire nearly 100 each day at Israeli cities.
[QUOTE=Jonzky;45450535]If I was warned I'd not hesitate about dropping my shit and getting as far away as possible.
If thats the aim then they're doing a pretty shitty job (given their capabilities) - However it is Hamas' aim to kill as many civilians as possible.[/QUOTE]
You can't make that claim when I can count Israel's civilian casualties on one hand while Palestinians are being massacred. It's not collateral damage, it's a fucking massacre and it's not the first.
Ordnance Fun Fact - Those little flechettes used to have a body-makeup that made them have anti-coagulating effects.
[QUOTE=MuTAnT;45450563]You can't make that claim when I can count Israel's civilian casualties on one hand while Palestinians are being massacred. It's not collateral damage, it's a fucking massacre and it's not the first.[/QUOTE]
Israeli civilians would be the same if not higher without the Iron Dome.
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