Israel using flechette shells that spray out a thousand tiny metal pieces in Gaza
112 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Masterofstars;45450581]Israeli civilians would be the same if not higher without the Iron Dome.[/QUOTE]
Rockets and mortars have been flying since 2001. The Iron Dome was added in 2011. As of July 2014, 28 people (including military) have been killed by both rockets and mortars coming from Gaza.
Please tell me how how high the civilian death rate would be without the Iron Dome.
[QUOTE=Masterofstars;45450581]Israeli civilians would be the same if not higher without the Iron Dome.[/QUOTE]
How did you come to that belief dude? The iron dome's only be in operation since what? 2011? and Hamas has never once been able to compete in the same league as Israel when it comes to the murder of civilians and destruction of homes.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;45450603]
Please tell me how how high the civilian death rate would be without the Iron Dome.[/QUOTE]
~35?
[QUOTE=zakedodead;45450674]~35?[/QUOTE]which clearly isn't "the same if not higher" than Palestinian casualties.
I would think, in a situation like this, that HESH (or HEP) rounds would be the best choice.
i think the best choice would be to air drop kittens with little parachutes en masse cmon guys
[QUOTE=Starpluck;45450603]Rockets and mortars have been flying since 2001. The Iron Dome was added in 2011. As of July 2014, 28 people (including military) have been killed by both rockets and mortars coming from Gaza.
Please tell me how how high the civilian death rate would be without the Iron Dome.[/QUOTE]
I have nothing to say regarding the Flechette that haven't been said already, it is disgusting and I am ashamed the IDF is using it.
However, I do have to comment on this, since you are speaking bullshit Starpluck and I'm pretty sure you're aware of that fact.
First of all, even without the Iron Dome, Israel has bunkers all around the cities which are closest to Gaza like Ashkelon, Sderot, Ashdod, and an alarm system where if a rocket is fired from Gaza, in just a few seconds the cities in its direction are notified and all the citizens have between 5-15 seconds to get to shelter, this reduces civilian casualties by quite a lot.
Second, during these last two weeks, and also during Pillar of defense two eyars ago, but mostly these last two weeks, Hamas has been firing rockets out of Gaza with extremely long range and a high amount of explosives, many of these "reached" Israel's major cities in the center, including Tel-Aviv, Jerusalem, Hadera, even Haifa in the north, and many more, and why did I say "reached"? because Iron Dome intercepted all of those rockets, at least those which were headed towards living areas, towns, cities, and not open spaces. If it weren't for Iron Dome, and the alarms and bomb shelters too, Israeli civilian casualties would have easily reached the hundreds in these last two weeks.
[QUOTE=Combineguy;45450202]i like that the primary defense for the use of flechettes here is "well at least they're not injuring civilians with HE shells or like THIS!!" as if that makes this okay[/QUOTE]
It's a war, they have already warned people to get out of dodge, they stayed.
What more is there to say? Tragic that people are getting killed, but foolish those people are for staying when they were asked to leave.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;45450939]I have nothing to say regarding the Flechette that haven't been said already, it is disgusting and I am ashamed the IDF is using it.
However, I do have to comment on this, since you are speaking bullshit Starpluck and I'm pretty sure you're aware of that fact.
First of all, even without the Iron Dome, Israel has bunkers all around the cities which are closest to Gaza like Ashkelon, Sderot, Ashdod, and an alarm system where if a rocket is fired from Gaza, in just a few seconds the cities in its direction are notified and all the citizens have between 5-15 seconds to get to shelter, this reduces civilian casualties by quite a lot.
Second, during these last two weeks, and also during Pillar of defense two eyars ago, but mostly these last two weeks, Hamas has been firing rockets out of Gaza with extremely long range and a high amount of explosives, many of these "reached" Israel's major cities in the center, including Tel-Aviv, Jerusalem, Hadera, even Haifa in the north, and many more, and why did I say "reached"? because Iron Dome intercepted all of those rockets, at least those which were headed towards living areas, towns, cities, and not open spaces. If it weren't for Iron Dome, and the alarms and bomb shelters too, Israeli civilian casualties would have easily reached the hundreds in these last two weeks.[/QUOTE]
You're talking about "bunkers and shelters" and I am talking about the Iron Dome. At least your bunkers and shelters can withstand the force of a makeshift rocket.
In Gaza, your shelter becomes your tomb.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;45451029]It's a war, they have already warned people to get out of dodge, they stayed.
What more is there to say? Tragic that people are getting killed, but foolish those people are for staying when they were asked to leave.[/QUOTE]
"dodge" is the entire Strip and if you think all of the residents there are going to leave because it's a warzone you've clearly missed the point of this entire conflict
[QUOTE=Derpmeifter;45451115]"dodge" is the entire Strip and if you think all of the residents there are going to leave because it's a warzone you've clearly missed the point of this entire conflict[/QUOTE]
Actually Israel (and their complicit Egyptian buddies) close border crossing in all of Gaza (been several months now). This sometimes includes Red Cross ambulances. You truly have nowhere to go, but it is OK because Israel warns you beforehand to evacuate in the small piece of prison strip.
[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;45449168]Shotguns, being small arms, are a lot more precise than a weapon like this, especially fired from range. Anyone within a [B]45m[/b] radius of the point of aim are at risk of being killed. A shotgun's grouping is going to be closer to 50cm depending on range and whatnot.[/QUOTE]
Well...technically one of the favorite shells for the Abrams tank is canister shot.
[video=youtube;Cgn1nhUEgo8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cgn1nhUEgo8[/video]
Which is effectively a 120mm shotgun shells that get fired at civilian structures and vehicles to maximize the chance of murdering everyone inside for a very low price point.
Likewise vietnam era M67 Recoiless rifles were brought out of storage for Afghanistan and use the flechette warheads.
Flechette rounds in modern combat are for holding positions. They are not very good at killing folks compared to conventional shells and are intended to wound over a wider radius. You trade lethality for the ability to, at least temporarily, remove more people from combat. I'd guess that these not only ultimately kill fewer people, but the wounds they leave are likely less grievous as well. If you are using the shells for their intended purpose, you aren't trying to kill or even seriously maim with flechette shells, you are attempting to stop an advancing force. Conventional munitions are likely more lethal and run the risk of collapsing entire structures and killing/trapping people with rubble.
The issue is the shelling of civilians in general. The issue of flechette rounds is one of simple fear mongering because people don't understand that flechette rounds are fairly normal in combat rather than the perception of them being some horrible atrocity by themselves.
Shelling the civilians is bad enough by itself, it would be better if folks wouldn't attempt to further emphasize that fact at the cost of the truth however. Otherwise you run the risk of discrediting any argument against it.
[editline]20th July 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;45449443]I'm not condemning the use of this stuff just because it's Israel doing it. If it were the Coalition in Afghanistan I'd have the same reaction. It's not so much about the weapon as its employment in a populated urban zone.[/QUOTE]
They did. Nobody noticed because flechette rounds aren't particularly horrific, they are just special purpose warheads.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;45449152]Shotguns are fired out of artillery cannons?[/QUOTE]
I now cannot remove the thought from my head of an artillery cannon firing double barreled shotguns. Why has the U.S. not developed such technology yet?
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;45451029]It's a war, they have already warned people to get out of dodge, they stayed.
What more is there to say? Tragic that people are getting killed, but foolish those people are for staying when they were asked to leave.[/QUOTE]
Oh its that easy is it? Just drop everything and go somewhere else?
Well jolly jee whiz I wonder why no one thought of that sooner!
Well lets see, Israel won't let them in. And the Egyptian border crossing probably wasn't letting anyone past.
So that just leaves the sea, yeah good plan. Everyone just walk into the sea and wait it out.
Isn't all of the "We use precision weapons to avoid civilian deaths" talk completely disproved by the mere fact that Israel is using land and navel artillery? Artillery isn't "precise".
Honestly, in my opinion, what Israel is doing in these short little campaigns is terrorism. They are instilling fear and terror in the Palestinian population by blowing up houses and killing civilians. Israel is sending an extremely direct message that this is what happens when you harm a single hair on the head of an Israeli citizen. It's not about Hamas or rockets that get shot down nine times out of ten, it's about keeping the Palestinians in line until...however Israel eventually plans on getting rid of them. No, it's not going to be concentration camps, but eventually Israel wants to settle Jews in the occupied territories and displace the Palestinians. Maybe they're just waiting for another pitched war with the surrounding Arab countries to give them a pretext for herding Palestinian families out into the desert at gunpoint, I don't know. Your guess is as good as mine.
[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;45451661]Isn't all of the "We use precision weapons to avoid civilian deaths" talk completely disproved by the mere fact that Israel is using land and navel artillery? Artillery isn't "precise".
Honestly, in my opinion, what Israel is doing in these short little campaigns is terrorism. They are instilling fear and terror in the Palestinian population by blowing up houses and killing civilians. Israel is sending an extremely direct message that this is what happens when you harm a single hair on the head of an Israeli citizen. It's not about Hamas or rockets that get shot down nine times out of ten, it's about keeping the Palestinians in line until...however Israel eventually plans on getting rid of them. No, it's not going to be concentration camps, but eventually Israel wants to settle Jews in the occupied territories and displace the Palestinians. Maybe they're just waiting for another pitched war with the surrounding Arab countries to give them a pretext for herding Palestinian families out into the desert at gunpoint, I don't know. Your guess is as good as mine.[/QUOTE]
If a muslim does it then its terrorism.
If an Israeli does it then its self defense.
[QUOTE=GunFox;45451199]The issue of flechette rounds is one of simple fear mongering[/QUOTE]
That basically sums it up.
Lebensraum.
Isn't it likely that Gaza civilians view their love for their home as love for their land and love for their god?
I mean, you could say that they are dumb beliefs, if you're so inclined, but that doesn't mean they deserve the status of human shield. Israel shouldn't [B]fire near[/B] them and the Gaza militants shouldn't [B]be near[/B] them.
That being said. I'm surprised Gaza civilians didn't uprise and kill the Gaza militants in their land years ago. Place would be in a much better state without them.
If a majority of able civilians did try to stop the militants, but failed, then I guess they are like hostages. Which would make this situation like a dirty cop carelessly shooting a machine gun at a bunch of innocent human shields just to kill a few disgusting criminals.
Or maybe the Gaza civilians agree with the militants. And are simply willing to act as human shields. Which sounds a bit bonkers, but they kinda have incentive to hate the Israelites that much and they do love their land and their God.
But, I'd bet it's a mix of the two types of civilians. Some that agree with the militants tactics and some that don't.
I still think Israel needs to treat all civilians like hostages. Innocent until proven guilty. Not deserving of death.
And I think the Gaza militants' tactics are filthy, because they purposefully stay so close to civilians.
[QUOTE=V12US;45451727]Lebensraum.[/QUOTE]
And that really worked out for the world last time someone claimed they needed it, huh?
[QUOTE=Kardia;45451768]Isn't it likely that Gaza civilians view their love for their home as love for their land and love for their god?
I mean, you could say that they are dumb beliefs, if you're so inclined, but that doesn't mean they deserve the status of human shield. Israel shouldn't [B]fire near[/B] them and the Gaza militants shouldn't [B]be near[/B] them.[/QUOTE]
I don't think it's a dumb belief. Go around asking Americans if they'd give up their home to a foreign attacker and a lot would say that they'd be the first person on the porch with a gun defending it.
A lot of those same people would support Israel here but that's for another time
[I]"We don't want to hurt any civilians!"[/I]
lol
Back to the topic about flechettes, they are very interesting from the viewpoint of it compared to a normal bullet. Flechettes are lighter, penetrate better, are faster and have longer range than bullets or buckshot does. Having researched the potential of the use of flechettes in individual rifles as a replacement to standard kinetic munitions, flechettes exceed bullets in all but two manners: deformation upon striking a target(basically, it's ability to tumble and destroy internal organs), and the manner of projection out of a rifle.
In other words, an individual flechette, of, say 40mm in length, is not very deadly at all. They have a tendency to punch straight through a target, when at a standard velocity of around 4000 f/s. You could make the flechette out of a frangible material that shreds apart after hitting a target, but that decreases it's ability to pierce armor, which is the best characteristic of using a flechette.
So, basically, the militaristic use of flechettes has been that where you can spit as many as possible in one shot, to maximize the piercing of light armored vehicles, to kill/wound combatants within. If you're not piercing something, flechettes are pointless. Once a flechette pierces a target, it starts to shred and tumble, at which point multiple flechettes is a kill, as they cause massive damage to flesh.
So against unarmored targets, unless 10 flechettes pierce the heart or brain, you're probably going to survive. In fact, wearing body armor might actually increase your chance of fatality against flechettes, as it'll slow them down enough to lodge and tear at your organs.
So since flechettes either lightly wound or flat out kill you, they're easily within Geneva standards.
If your hit by one of those things, considering how many they fire, you're probably going to be hit by more.
[QUOTE=Starpluck;45450603]Rockets and mortars have been flying since 2001. The Iron Dome was added in 2011. As of July 2014, 28 people (including military) have been killed by both rockets and mortars coming from Gaza.
Please tell me how how high the civilian death rate would be without the Iron Dome.[/QUOTE]
so your argument is like, there is V1 flying into UK, let's ignore it cause most of time it misses ? ...
The worst part about flechettes is the overall difficulty of removing said flechettes from the body.
[QUOTE=Dwarden;45452772]so your argument is like, there is V1 flying into UK, let's ignore it cause most of time it misses ? ...[/QUOTE]
What I love about this analogy is that you picked a weapon with a warhead weight 170 times larger than that of the Qassam 1, Hamas' most used rocket.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;45449127]It's a fucking shotgun in a larger form. Do we outlaw slugs and buckshot from a 12 gauge under the same pretext?[/QUOTE]
These have quite a good chance of not even killing you, but rather maiming your body from an extremely large range. Last I checked, shotguns aren't long-range and pretty easily kill people.
These things are exceptionally good at tearing through pretty much anything but thick walls and they cause virtually no structural damage, but they kill and maim people in an extraordinarily large area, it's disgusting.
[QUOTE=Monkah;45449158]It's a non-lethal weapon. The alternative to this is actual civilian deaths.
I'd much prefer they use this over some of Israel's other weapon selections.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Did not read the article" - Starpluck))[/highlight][/QUOTE]
[video=youtube;XhOKwek-LJU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhOKwek-LJU[/video]
[QUOTE]The Israel Defense Forces have been accused of using 105 and 120 mm flechettes during the occupation of southern Lebanon, and later in the 2009 and 2014 incursions into the Gaza Strip.[4][5] The Israel Defense Forces had drawn criticism for their use of tank-fired flechettes in urban areas.[6][7][8] In 2008, a flechette round from an Israeli tank fired at Reuters cameraman Fadel Shana'a killed him along with two adjacent civilians.[9][/QUOTE]
Very non-lethal indeed.
[QUOTE=MuTAnT;45452954]What I love about this analogy is that you picked a weapon with a warhead weight 170 times larger than that of the Qassam 1, Hamas' most used rocket.[/QUOTE]
but if they could they would use same or bigger warhead, so it's irrelevant, they keep building and importing bigger and more deadly ones over time ...
in the end rockets and mortar and artillery shells are deadly if hit area with humans in blast range ...
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