[QUOTE=Silly Sil;34442317]Pretty much what people been doing in this thread and you guys responding "you don't know what's socialism".
I never said or implied that. You did. Or you thought that people were talking about it where they weren't.
Yes. And the more you take from everyone and redistribute it the more socialistic the country.
I never said everything that works for benefit of everyone for the money from everyone is bad. Public schools, libraries, healthcare, firemen, roads and police are great examples. But it shouldn't go much further than that.
Of course. It was the most extreme example I could think of. But if you redistribute for instance 33% of people's income, that's a lot. And if you take more from the rich and give it to the poor you penalize people for earning much and reward people for not working. And those who work harder and earn above the average won't want to finance those who don't work. They'll do everything to avoid that. Nothing good will come out of that. It all looks nice on paper and would work in a perfect world where everyone wants to contribute and nobody wants to get as much as they can while doing the least they can but it's simply not reality.
If you have a society where everyone is rich or at least very well and the social norm is to contribute you can have a lot of redistribution and it's not going to do much harm. But if you don't have that, the lazy will try to live off welfare while the rich are trying to do everything in their power to avoid financing other people.[/QUOTE]
Okay, I apologize for acting like an arrogant asshole, but that's my posting style so don't take it personally. I think a bit of what you were saying was lost in translation, so thanks for clearing it up.
I don't think we'll see a point where people can live as well as they did if they worked hard. I do think that a level of redistribution of extreme wealth where people can survive with the basics while the government significantly invests in its population (free university, for example) to increase productivity.
That kind of 'everyone equal in wealth' society is supposed to happen after we have material superabundance, so most of our current ways of thinking don't apply, because we're still thinking in a scarcity-based economic framework.
[editline]29th January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;34442342]Best thing is that Soviet Russia never got that hot with actual communism either.
I don't think it's really their fault, anyway. People are corrupt everywhere. Unless we make better people, we won't have better results.[/QUOTE]
Why is it best that soviet russia never went further down the 'communism' rabbithole?
You can definitely make more resilient systems and educate people to hedge against corruption.
[QUOTE=Contag;34442397]
Why is it best that soviet russia never went further down the 'communism' rabbithole?
You can definitely make more resilient systems and educate people to hedge against corruption.[/QUOTE]
Only a small fraction of people care about the society as a whole. Most of the officials were heavily corrupt themselves.
Hell, the very same thing is happening in USA. Look at the candidates, mainly from GOP. They are all corrupt as hell, and people don't realize or don't care, and the "progressives" aren't [I]too much[/I] better.
Humans are generally a greedy, selfish, dumb race, and I am afraid I won't see that changing to the better during my lifetime.
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;34442452]Only a small fraction of people care about the society as a whole. Most of the officials were heavily corrupt themselves.
Humans are generally a greedy, selfish, dumb race,
[/quote]
And that's why I see redistribution as a bad thing. There will be more people who want to take and do nothing than those who want to work and contribute and it's not going to work. And most of the time when people scream "socialism" it's not referred to "'socialism' put in place by the USSR, or the socialism promoted by marxist scholars" it's about increasing redistribution, splitting the wealth among everyone, going further away from laissez-faire and closer to socialism. The scale is quite long, it's not either this or that.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;34442766]And that's why I see redistribution as a bad thing. There will be more people who want to take and do nothing than those who want to work and contribute and it's not going to work. And most of the time when people scream "socialism" it's not referred to "'socialism' put in place by the USSR, or the socialism promoted by marxist scholars" it's about increasing redistribution, splitting the wealth among everyone, going further away from laissez-faire and closer to socialism. The scale is quite long, it's not either this or that.[/QUOTE]
There is one socialism I believe into - machine driven.
We can't handle ourselves, but I believe we can create something greater that could. Asimov - "the Machines". That's the only truly optimistic future I see.
Wait, isn't this good. Socialistic values are great, I mean the NHS is the best thing to ever happen to the UK.
[quote=FoxNews]If rich people are going to have to pay more taxes, they don't want to be rich anymore![/quote]
It pisses me off how Fox News can get away with these retarded arguments.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;34440625]So you guys like socialism now? Put all the money into a big sack and then equally split it among everyone? Cool you don't even have to work anymore to get money. Except when everyone tries to do that. And nobody's gonna want to earn over the average, they will take their business somewhere else.[/QUOTE]
That's what happens when you let it go too far. A succesful society incorporates elements from both kapitalism and socialism, to ensure there is a healthy class system, but where the lower classes are still able to live a good life.
The mindset that the US are always ten years ahead is a wrong one. European countries always followed their own course. The difference is that Europe didn't have the cold war, so communism and socialism don't have the stigma attached to it that they have in the US.
Scandinavian countries are for the most part very good examples of succesful kapitalism/socialism hybrids. Ideally, the US should be following them. Unfortunately Americans have a major issue where they believe they are #1 of the world. A mindset that is very destructive, as it leads to problems being ignored because it's believed they can't be fixed.
If the US continues it's current course, it will lead to the total eradication of the middle class, and the states will turn into a giant, corporate controlled slum with a few skyscrapers for the elite. There needs to be a better distribution of wealth.
Sometimes, when debates get too intense... I like to cover myself in vaseline....and pretend i'm a slug.
[QUOTE=Boba_Fett;34441042]Truth be had, we're definitely not capitalist.
We're more corporatist, which is pretty much all the bad aspects of capitalism and socialism rolled up into one big dysfunctional mess of a system.[/QUOTE]Holy fucking shit, it's plutocracy. Corporatism is an entirely fucking different system based on association of people within their interests, et al. Read a goddamn dictionary.
[editline]00[/editline]
Also, this is an opinion piece.
[QUOTE=Scrimp;34443640]Sometimes, when debates get too intense... I like to cover myself in vaseline....and pretend i'm a slug.[/QUOTE]
I didn't know Gingrich posted on facepunch!
Why do Americans consider Socialism to be worse than fascism?
[QUOTE=Boba_Fett;34439262]I have to say, I'm getting really tired of seeing thread after thread of these anti-Conservative articles.[/QUOTE]
Maybe, boba, that should tell you something. ESPECIALLY when these anti-conservative articles are from things THEY say.
I know you think your party is oppressed for absolutely no reason, but maybe this massive influx of stupidity from your side is saying something.
I thought that this would be a good thing, someone explain to me how it isn't?
Incoming boxes.
[QUOTE=Corndog Ninja;34439358]She's saying that if the government keeps taking more money from big businesses then big businesses will be less willing to take risks, and therefore won't make as much money.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, and that's complete nonsense because it doesn't happen that way. They're already taking risks, just their risks now are to see how far they can stretch the system and fuck people out of their money.
[editline]29th January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;34439896]America will keep trying to be the policemen of the world for a while. Nothing to do but wait it out until they stop. :v:
While the idea of socialism is good, a country can't run on it with several other problems like Bill Gates stated that it doesn't inspire innovation.[/QUOTE]
Norway would like to have a word with you.
And Bill Gates isn't exactly the know all.
[editline]29th January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;34440625]So you guys like socialism now? Put all the money into a big sack and then equally split it among everyone? Cool you don't even have to work anymore to get money. Except when everyone tries to do that. And nobody's gonna want to earn over the average, they will take their business somewhere else.[/QUOTE]
Hi, I'm silly sil, you may know me from such programmes as "I have no fucking idea what I'm talking about" and "I shouldn't give my opinion for I am completely ignorant."
[editline]29th January 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;34443059]There is one socialism I believe into - machine driven.
We can't handle ourselves, but I believe we can create something greater that could. Asimov - "the Machines". That's the only truly optimistic future I see.[/QUOTE]
You're pretty insane if you think totalitarianism by machines is a good idea. Asimov's book isn't even fucking optimistic. You are one fucked up person, awesomecake
[QUOTE=Boba_Fett;34441332]Regardless, the OP clearly posted this article to garner a negative response towards conservatives.[/QUOTE]
You are a highly paranoid person.
Bravo,Obama!
[QUOTE=znk666;34444287]Why do Americans consider Socialism to be worse than fascism?[/QUOTE]
Indoctrination?
And what people find worse than other things is completely up to that individual. If you happen to like an ultranationalist government that breeds intolerance and authoritative control over your lives rather than a government that requires you to give more of what you make to other people in your country then that's fine.
In America, all I see is "SOCIALISM =/= COMMUNISM = BAD BAD BAD" stuff.
[QUOTE=Black-Ice;34444613]In America, all I see is "SOCIALISM =/= COMMUNISM = BAD BAD BAD" stuff.[/QUOTE]
Communism isn't all that bad though,people simply confuse it with Stalinism.
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;34444346]
Hi, I'm silly sil, you may know me from such programmes as "I have no fucking idea what I'm talking about" and "I shouldn't give my opinion for I am completely ignorant."[/QUOTE]
Hi I'm governor goblin, you may know me from such programmes as "I jump into a discussion that has already been resolved and where everyone agreed without reading the entire convo" and "I think I'm so witty it hurts"
[editline]29th January 2012[/editline]
Also socialism or anything leaning towards it is only going to work if the vast majority wants to work for the benefit of everyone, not just their own and when corruption is minimal. If you don't have those it's going to fail. If you assume that vast majority of people is not greedy and would happily work for the benefit of everyone you need a reality check.
The U.S is as far away from socialism as you can get, if it gets a little more socialist it's only healthy for the U.S.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;34445125]Hi I'm governor goblin, you may know me from such programmes as "I jump into a discussion that has already been resolved and where everyone agreed without reading the entire convo" and "I think I'm so witty it hurts"[/quote]
Everyone agrees with you? hookay
[quote]Also socialism or anything leaning towards it is only going to work if the vast majority wants to work for the benefit of everyone, not just their own and when corruption is minimal. If you don't have those it's going to fail. If you assume that vast majority of people is not greedy and would happily work for the benefit of everyone you need a reality check.[/QUOTE]
Not really, it's called a social net for a reason. Socialism isn't some system that votes for every person to get social programmes or not. You can go ahead and say "lol its been resolved" but my point still stands, you have absolutely NO fucking idea what socialism is.
lol the source is the torygraph, it's just like them to say this sort of tripe
Most people today associate Socialism with Communism, which is the extreme form.
This thread = typical sensationalist politics threads
Such a disappointment that every U.S. political thread has to be anti-America / anti-conservative, but it is what FP has come to be I guess.
[QUOTE=Sand;34445422]This thread = typical sensationalist politics threads
Such a disappointment that every U.S. political thread has to be anti-America / anti-conservative, but it is what FP has come to be I guess.[/QUOTE]
We'll stop making fun of Conservatives, when conservatives stop giving us things to make fun of them for.
Oh and as for anti-American? Now you're just being paranoid and neurotic.
[quote]What was it everybody used to say about the United States? Look at what’s happening over there and you will see our future. Whatever Americans are doing now, we will be catching up with them in another 10 years or so. In popular culture or political rhetoric, America led the fashion and we tagged along behind.[/quote]
Yeah everybody used to say this. Around 230 years ago.
And Bobafett continues with his persecution complex of epic proportions.
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;34445367]Everyone agrees with you? hookay[/QUOTE]
No actually we came to an understandment and then you start making replies to something that was said on the start of the converstation istead of continuing it.
[QUOTE=Governor Goblin;34445367]Not really, it's called a social net for a reason. Socialism isn't some system that votes for every person to get social programmes or not. You can go ahead and say "lol its been resolved" but my point still stands, you have absolutely NO fucking idea what socialism is.[/QUOTE]
Okay another guy going "you don't know what socialism is but I do, therefore I'm right". Explain to me then what it is and how it works according to you. And how could it work if people wouldn't want to contribute?
[QUOTE=znk666;34444660]Communism isn't all that bad though,people simply confuse it with Stalinism.[/QUOTE]
Communism is an interesting concept but it's closer to an utopia than to something realist.
You just can't make everything common to everyone and hope stuff goes right.
what the fuck? I never realised the telegraph was this right wing
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