Valve: Linux More Viable Than Windows 8 for Gaming - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Generic.Monk;38238009]there simply isn't an adequate framework in linux to support gaming as there is with windows;[/QUOTE] Which says a lot about Valve's decision if they're going to build the framework up just to spite Windows.

The restrictions on the store are largely limits on how else you distribute your app, and quality control. I don't remember seeing anything about third party service integration. So if Valve want to release on Windows RT, release your game on the store but jam Steamworks into the game for content purchasing and the likes. After all, you have been working on that system for years now, use it to your advantage.

I don't understand Valve's problem with Windows, but as long as they're pushing for games to be released on Linux I don't really care. Games are pretty much the only reason I still use Windows.

[QUOTE=Generic.Monk;38238009]The windows store isn't open, and with windows RT you can't create non-store apps. On the proper version though everything that was in windows is still there; saying it's less viable for gaming than linux is frankly retarded; there simply isn't an adequate framework in linux to support gaming as there is with windows; while it's completely open nearly every PC game supports windows and only windows, the graphics drivers and other frameworks such as visual C++ and directx being optimized or completely tailored to windows. While this is more a matter of windows' popularity than anything else it still in its current state remains a far, far more viable gaming platform than any linux distro, as much as I love it.[/QUOTE] I don't know what you're talking about on half of those points. Running OpenGL with closed source nVidia drivers they benchmark Linux to be in a lot of cases faster than Windows. OpenGL implements all the same features DirectX does.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;38238080]The restrictions on the store are largely limits on how else you distribute your app, and quality control. I don't remember seeing anything about third party service integration. So if Valve want to release on Windows RT, release your game on the store but jam Steamworks into the game for content purchasing and the likes. After all, you have been working on that system for years now, use it to your advantage.[/QUOTE] When you get a Windows 8 ARM tablet, here's what you can do - Use Metro. - Install apps from the store. Literally nothing else, you can't even install another OS due to the secure boot drama. This is the locked down shit Gabe's pissed at, I believe. That and the app store is a disaster. There's thousands of apps still waiting to be processed and developers are pissed at it for marking their applications as invalid when nobody at Microsoft will answer why.

It's really saying something when a game developer says that Linux is more viable for big, wide-release games than Windows fucking 8.

[QUOTE=Negrul1;38238062]ITT: I know more about how well games could run on different operating systems than actual game developers even though I know nothing about how well games could run on different operating systems.[/QUOTE] some facepunchers are actually developers just fyi

I honestly don't know why people would agree with this - why is Windows 8 inherently worse for gaming than Windows 7 was? The only reason that Valve mentions (and check the fucking article if you feel like rating this dumb) is the app store, and that Windows 8 is supposedly getting "more closed". It hasn't gotten more closed - sure there's an app store, but that's completely optional, and mainly meant for tablets and nothing else. DirectX can't really be the reason either, simply because it's pretty much the same as in Windows 7, so it should be completely as much a (supposedly) pain in the ass to develop for. Windows 7 and 8 are [I]exactly[/I] the same openess-wise, sans the [I]optional[/I] app store, that isn't in any way threatening Steam or any playform like it. Sorry, but if Valve can't elaborate more on why this Windows 8 is inherently worse than Windows 7, I'm calling BS - it's simply not true that Windows 8 is more closed than Windows 7, and I honestly don't think Microsoft knows whether Microsoft is gonna make Windows 9 completely closed or not - it wouldn't stand to reason that they did, and the backslash would be enormous. And before you guys rate me dumb, try explaining exactly what you think is different in Windows 8 than Windows 7. Then you can rate me dumb all you want and I'll aknowledge that you were right all the way. PS. I like Linux, and I would like it to be a viable gaming platform, but that doesn't mean there's any reason why Windows 8 is suddenly shit for gaming companies (and as far as I remember, no one (big) but Valve has complained). And some of you might want to read this: [url]http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/windows-8-gaming-performance,review-32553.html[/url] It doesn't seem like compability nor performance changed much from Windows 7 to 8. This is pretty much proof that it's not any harder or easier to write a game for Windows 8 than 7.

[QUOTE=Jookia;38238135]When you get a Windows 8 ARM tablet, here's what you can do - Use Metro. - Install apps from the store. Literally nothing else, you can't even install another OS due to the secure boot drama. This is the locked down shit Gabe's pissed at, I believe. That and the app store is a disaster. There's thousands of apps still waiting to be processed and developers are pissed at it for marking their applications as invalid when nobody at Microsoft will answer why.[/QUOTE] How does only being able to; -Use Metro -Install apps from the store Stop a developer of the apps from integrating a service into their app? I think you missed my point horribly. Plus they could probably make a Metro edition of Steam, MS can't really say no I expect due to fear of anti-trust on them again. Either way, Win RT is the only locked down thing about windows 8, everything on the Pro (x86/64) version works exactly like Windows 7, just with a new start screen.

That's a bit extreme, and I've never heard that guy's name before. I only really consider it to be "Valve says" if Gabe or Doug or Robin or someone recognizable like that are the ones talking

[QUOTE=koeniginator;38238190]some facepunchers are actually developers just fyi[/QUOTE] Haha oh man I totally missed that.

[QUOTE=Jookia;38238135]When you get a Windows 8 ARM tablet, here's what you can do - Use Metro. - Install apps from the store. Literally nothing else, you can't even install another OS due to the secure boot drama. This is the locked down shit Gabe's pissed at, I believe. That and the app store is a disaster. There's thousands of apps still waiting to be processed and developers are pissed at it for marking their applications as invalid when nobody at Microsoft will answer why.[/QUOTE] Heh and I bet of all the Steam games currently running on Linux, few - if any will work correctly on ARM, which leaves that point moot. Secure boot is hardly drama. Protecting the bootloader is another important security feature and it's implementation is important. On desktops the feature is entirely optional. If what you say is true about the app store, I'm willing to bet as the Windows 8 rollout goes on, things will get better.

Slightly related question, will old linux games still work today?

[QUOTE=hexpunK;38238207]How does only being able to; -Use Metro -Install apps from the store Stop a developer of the apps from integrating a service into their app? I think you missed my point horribly. Plus they could probably make a Metro edition of Steam, MS can't really say no I expect due to fear of anti-trust on them again. Either way, Win RT is the only locked down thing about windows 8, everything on the Pro (x86/64) version works exactly like Windows 7, just with a new start screen.[/QUOTE] On Linux there's these things where you uhh can run any code you want on just about any cpu architecture without anyone's sayso. I think that's what Valve's talking about. You know openness.

[QUOTE=Generic.Monk;38238009]The windows store isn't open, and with windows RT you can't create non-store apps. On the proper version though everything that was in windows is still there; saying it's less viable for gaming than linux is frankly retarded; there simply isn't an adequate framework in linux to support gaming as there is with windows; while it's completely open nearly every PC game supports windows and only windows, the graphics drivers and other frameworks such as visual C++ and directx being optimized or completely tailored to windows. While this is more a matter of windows' popularity than anything else it still in its current state remains a far, far more viable gaming platform than any linux distro, as much as I love it.[/QUOTE] Visual C++ is a compiler. They can just use Clang, which has the extra benefit of running everywhere (Including Windows) and being open source (So everyone can contribute new optimizations). And DirectX, which runs only on Windows, can be replaced with OpenGL, which runs everywhere (Including Windows), and has the extra benefit of being an open standard.

Windows 8 is great and anyone who disagrees have never used it before.

[QUOTE=Jawalt;38238265]On Linux there's these things where you uhh can run any code you want on just about any cpu architecture without anyone's sayso. I think that's what Valve's talking about. You know openness.[/QUOTE] Needs a recompile and reprogramming (at least to the extent of my knowledge) to do that, I'd like you to make an OS that just runs flawlessly across all architectures while performing brilliantly.

[QUOTE=SA Spyder;38237613]A new start menu apparently kills the platform. Valve is a good company but they're wrong here. They're just afraid of competition from the Windows store.[/QUOTE] Your point is based on the notion that Windows 8 is simply a new start menu - isn't that what pretty much what Windows 8 supporters argue against?

[QUOTE=hexpunK;38238207]How does only being able to; -Use Metro -Install apps from the store Stop a developer of the apps from integrating a service into their app? I think you missed my point horribly. Plus they could probably make a Metro edition of Steam, MS can't really say no I expect due to fear of anti-trust on them again.[/QUOTE] It means Microsoft have a monopoly, and that's never a good thing. We've seen how this worked in the past. I don't know the guidelines of the store specifically, but I'm certain that there's the typical 'we reserve the right to remove your app for no fucking reason' clause. BTW I don't mean Microsoft will have, or may have, I mean they [i]have[/i]. They've won. [QUOTE=hexpunK;38238207]Either way, Win RT is the only locked down thing about windows 8, everything on the Pro (x86/64) version works exactly like Windows 7, just with a new start screen.[/QUOTE] Fucking awesome, let's just let our tablets (the future of common computing pretty much) get locked down. It's okay as long as our desktops are fine isn't it?

[QUOTE=Winner;38238315]No, that's not possible with Microsoft's regulations (which is kind of a big deal)[/QUOTE] But there is also no need to make a metro steam. It's a desktop only program and therefore it exists on the desktop, where nothing has changed.

[QUOTE=Philly c;38238264]Slightly related question, will old linux games still work today?[/QUOTE] Yes.

[QUOTE=MegaJohnny;38238330]Your point is based on the notion that Windows 8 is simply a new start menu - isn't that what pretty much what Windows 8 supporters argue against?[/QUOTE] You're right, there's a lot more, but there's no changes that could possibly mean so much that Valve would suddenly decide that Windows 8 sucks ass compared to windows 7. Again, I'll refer to this article: [url]http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/windows-8-gaming-performance,review-32553.html[/url]

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;38238310]Needs a recompile and reprogramming (at least to the extent of my knowledge) to do that, I'd like you to make an OS that just runs flawlessly across all architectures while performing brilliantly.[/QUOTE] Actually properly written ANSI C, or C++ will run basically anywhere with only a few modifications.

[QUOTE=Eudoxia;38238292]Visual C++ is a compiler. They can just use Clang, which has the extra benefit of running everywhere (Including Windows) and being open source (So everyone can contribute new optimizations). And DirectX, which runs only on Windows, can be replaced with OpenGL, which runs everywhere (Including Windows), and has the extra benefit of being an open standard.[/QUOTE] Something wrong with GCC bro?

[QUOTE=Jookia;38238135]When you get a Windows 8 ARM tablet, here's what you can do - Use Metro. - Install apps from the store. Literally nothing else, you can't even install another OS due to the secure boot drama. This is the locked down shit Gabe's pissed at, I believe. That and the app store is a disaster. There's thousands of apps still waiting to be processed and developers are pissed at it for marking their applications as invalid when nobody at Microsoft will answer why.[/QUOTE] when you get a windows RT tablet you're getting something that's literally a completely different product than the thing that actually matters to big-name Devs, which is Windows 8, which not only runs on [B]everything that isn't a specially-made processor on a tablet[/B] but also is what would run on your desktop, has the actual normal desktop (which has no "closed platform restrictions"), and is what devs care about. The app store is just casual tablet games and apps. You can't even get mature games on the appstore for christ sake.

[QUOTE=Jookia;38238372]Something wrong with GCC bro?[/QUOTE] Shitty error messages, slow compile times. Clang ftw.

[QUOTE=Jookia;38238372]Something wrong with GCC bro?[/QUOTE] The license makes me feel all weird inside and the error messages are horrid.

[QUOTE=Jawalt;38238371]Actually properly written ANSI C, or C++ will run basically anywhere with only a few modifications.[/QUOTE] Not if an API you're using isn't on the new environment.

[QUOTE=SL128;38238036]Read this. It's probably relevant. [url]http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/179420/[/url][/QUOTE] Found a good comment on the article. [quote] There is another perspective this article failed to raise: Microsoft may be intentionally distancing the Windows brand from gaming in order to reinforce it's Xbox brand. I'm under the impression that Microsoft doesn't control hardware sales or distribution of Windows 8 anymore than it does with other versions of windows, yet gaming hardware is big business. If I were in control of the most popular gaming platform, I'd want to maximize all aspects of revenue, including hardware. Thus: Xbox. Arguably, the biggest competition Xbox faces isn't Playstation or iPhone, it's Windows. Microsoft competes with itself in two huge gaming arenas, but loses in many ways with the PC: hardware sales, lack of store control, lack of social media control, piracy, etc. Conversely, Microsoft has much better control of all those things in the Xbox ecosystem. Kill of the PC, focus on Xbox. Makes perfect sense. And all those top games you mention? Xbox releases. [/quote]

[QUOTE=Jookia;38238402]Not if an API you're using isn't on the new environment.[/QUOTE] And this is why developers should adhere to open standards and never write code that #includes windows.h.