Valve: Linux More Viable Than Windows 8 for Gaming - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Jawalt;38238399]Shitty error messages, slow compile times. Clang ftw.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Eudoxia;38238401]The license makes me feel all weird inside and the error messages are horrid.[/QUOTE] Does Clang even run on Windows?

[QUOTE=Jookia;38238402]Not if an API you're using isn't on the new environment.[/QUOTE] Well of course not, but I assume if you're trying to write a crossplatform app you'd have the foresight to use crossplatform APIs?

[QUOTE=Eudoxia;38238418]And this is why developers should adhere to open standards and never write code that #includes windows.h.[/QUOTE] Developers are stupid. I SWEAR IF MY AUTOMERGE IS BROKEN ONE MORE TIME

It'd be nice to finally see a push towards Linux, it is a far superior OS to Windows and I believe if Windows/Microsoft keep going the way they are then they'll eventually become a walled garden like Crapple

[QUOTE=Jookia;38238421]Does Clang even run on Windows?[/QUOTE] I have no idea, but the error messages make me orgasm. Clang legit holds your hand with error messages.

[QUOTE=Jookia;38238421]Does Clang even run on Windows?[/QUOTE] I think so. I've been meaning to install it, but getting anything to compile on Windows has always been a horrible experience for me. [url]http://llvm.org/releases/download.html[/url]

[QUOTE=Jookia;38238337]It means Microsoft have a monopoly, and that's never a good thing. We've seen how this worked in the past. I don't know the guidelines of the store specifically, but I'm certain that there's the typical 'we reserve the right to remove your app for no fucking reason' clause. BTW I don't mean Microsoft will have, or may have, I mean they [i]have[/i]. They've won. Fucking awesome, let's just let our tablets (the future of common computing pretty much) get locked down. It's okay as long as our desktops are fine isn't it?[/QUOTE] Heh, you're seeing Windows 8 and RT as the same thing. There's RT devices and there's x86-64 devices. x86-64 devices will be able to install any software you'd wish for (and is compatible with Windows 8), RT devices uses a completely different CPU architecture, and they simply aren't able to run x86-64 software. This is Microsoft answer to iOS and Android, and should be seen as such. Even though you're able to sideload apps onto your Android device, how many of you guys actually do that? I'll take a wild guess and say that 90% of you get the very largest majority of applications from Android market place or google play, what Microsoft is doing is pretty much the same approach. It's obvious that you really have no idea what you're talking about.

Can I just point out that it took how many Versions of WIndows for Valve to get angry? And then the PS3. At the same time, Valve is actually getting more and more closed off with the modding community.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;38238466]Heh, you're seeing Windows 8 and RT as the same thing. There's RT devices and there's x86-64 devices. x86-64 devices will be able to install any software you'd wish for (and is compatible with Windows 8), RT devices uses a completely different CPU architecture, and they simply aren't able to run x86-64 software. This is Microsoft answer to iOS and Android, and should be seen as such. Even though you're able to sideload apps onto your Android device, how many of you guys actually do that? I'll take a wild guess and say that 90% of you get the very largest majority of applications from Android market place or google play, what Microsoft is doing is pretty much the same approach. It's obvious that you really have no idea what you're talking about.[/QUOTE] I don't think you understand. It's about the freedom to do something whether or not you actually do it.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;38237771]There is nothing fundamentally different about windows 8 compared to 7 that will be a detriment to gaming on the platform. Outside of Windows RT, developing for Windows 8 is near exact to any other recent versions. Valve are pulling shit from their arse about the "moving away from an open platform" they see happening, as outside of listing your app on the store, there are the exact same restrictions as windows 7, none. The restrictions will only really affect Windows RT users anyway as the app won't be available to them. Desktop users are fine. As cool as Valve are most times. They are being massive fools here. And it does seem to be mostly in retaliation to the windows store. But it is nice to see more news about Linux builds of their games.[/QUOTE] I think you're confusing "coding" with "whats installed" and I don't see how windows store affects how open something is or coding.

[QUOTE=Wormy;38238496]Uh, how?[/QUOTE] Notice how all the major mods are built on the 2007 Source and just updated. The modding tools are dead for L4D, L4D2, for Portal(Which has a very closed map making program). There documentation is outdated and is no longer updated by actual Valve Developers. I'll just leave those two there.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;38238466]RT devices uses a completely different CPU architecture, and they simply aren't able to run x86-64 software.[/QUOTE] So... You just instruct your compiler to cross-compile to that platform. I have not used Visual * in a long time, but I presume it can do that?

Haha. Good one valve. Honestly looks like they seriously hate being in competition to the win8 appstore. Because by and large windows 8 is infinitely more viable for gaming than linux. a) better software support b) directX being the defacto standard c) in a lot of cases better performance d) better hardware support [QUOTE=Eudoxia;38238541]So... You just instruct your compiler to cross-compile to that platform. I have not used Visual * in a long time, but I presume it can do that?[/QUOTE] The app store is essentially cpu agnostic. As everthing in the RT store will work in the win8 app store and vice versa. But that's only for the app store in effect. While MS did port the iwin32 library to RT as well, it's generally not available to devs and I think only a select few applications use it. Desktop IE, Desktop Office, Explorer. This of course doesn't stop RT from beign viable. It just has a very different focus group than windows8. So yes steam is not possible on RT, but anyone expecting it to be is well daft. It's completely unlimited in Windows8 though. My guess is though, that Valve just really hates the idea of competition they will get from the marketplace in low key indie apps which does have the potential of pushing steam out. Of course steam will most likely remain king on high end games, as those cannot run from the marketplace anyway due to the heavy sandboxing.

Also Window RT is just a nickname for Windows ported to ARM. ARM is a popular platform, it's not like there isn't a fuckton of ARM software

[QUOTE=Jawalt;38238371]Actually properly written ANSI C, or C++ will run basically anywhere with only a few modifications.[/QUOTE] Cool, I'll admit defeat here to some extent. As far as I know you can still write programs in C++ and so on that'll work cross-platform on both RT and 8, that's why most apps in the market place are compatible between the two. But writing a whole OS to run on both ARM, x86-64, POWER and what architecture we might stumble upon? With my fairly limited knowledge on the subject, wouldn't it become harder and harder to code with each added architecture? You'd have to have it working on everything, and developing applications for a huge variety of platforms sounds like a pain in the ass.

[QUOTE=Jawalt;38238523]I don't think you understand. It's about the freedom to do something whether or not you actually do it.[/QUOTE] Yet you have to still root your phone anyway.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;38238466]Heh, you're seeing Windows 8 and RT as the same thing. There's RT devices and there's x86-64 devices. x86-64 devices will be able to install any software you'd wish for (and is compatible with Windows 8), RT devices uses a completely different CPU architecture, and they simply aren't able to run x86-64 software. This is Microsoft answer to iOS and Android, and should be seen as such. Even though you're able to sideload apps onto your Android device, how many of you guys actually do that? I'll take a wild guess and say that 90% of you get the very largest majority of applications from Android market place or google play, what Microsoft is doing is pretty much the same approach. It's obvious that you really have no idea what you're talking about.[/QUOTE] This is bullshit. Linux distros generally work on all processors with the same amount of applications in general. Who knows, this may mean Steam ARM some day in the future. I'm under the assumption that Windows RT is a subset of Windows 8 seeing as it does use the Win32 API but hides it.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;38237771]There is nothing fundamentally different about windows 8 compared to 7 that will be a detriment to gaming on the platform. Outside of Windows RT, developing for Windows 8 is near exact to any other recent versions. Valve are pulling shit from their arse about the "moving away from an open platform" they see happening, as outside of listing your app on the store, there are the exact same restrictions as windows 7, none. The restrictions will only really affect Windows RT users anyway as the app won't be available to them. Desktop users are fine. As cool as Valve are most times. They are being massive fools here. And it does seem to be mostly in retaliation to the windows store. But it is nice to see more news about Linux builds of their games.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=hexpunK;38238207]How does only being able to; -Use Metro -Install apps from the store Stop a developer of the apps from integrating a service into their app? I think you missed my point horribly. Plus they could probably make a Metro edition of Steam, MS can't really say no I expect due to fear of anti-trust on them again. Either way, Win RT is the only locked down thing about windows 8, everything on the Pro (x86/64) version works exactly like Windows 7, just with a new start screen.[/QUOTE] Didn't Microsoft talk about them "Merging the tablet and the PC"? What makes you believe that the disparity between ARM - Locked - x86 - Unlocked will stay forever? I don't know if it will or will not; it might, it might not. From what I understand, though, Valve thinks it might not, and Linux is seemingly their backup experiment. [B]IF[/B] Windows 9 or whatever end up fully locked, independently on platform, they will be fucked. It makes both development and economical sense for them to attempt to get footing in another boat, as the original one is getting scarily rocky.

[QUOTE=Jawalt;38238523]I don't think you understand. It's about the freedom to do something whether or not you actually do it.[/QUOTE] But it's not like Steam is going to be interested in the RT platform? It's ARM, it's not really powerful enough to push even some of the simplest games on Steam. It shouldn't change a thing, and it's only on RT where you're forced to use the store for applications. Valve is saying that [I]Windows 8[/I] is bad for choice, not [I]Windows RT[/I] and they're two completely different animals. It's a very important distinction.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;38238547]Cool, I'll admit defeat here to some extent. As far as I know you can still write programs in C++ and so on that'll work cross-platform on both RT and 8, that's why most apps in the market place are compatible between the two. But writing a whole OS to run on both ARM, x86-64, POWER and what architecture we might stumble upon? With my fairly limited knowledge on the subject, wouldn't it become harder and harder to code with each added architecture? You'd have to have it working on everything, and developing applications for a huge variety of platforms sounds like a pain in the ass.[/QUOTE] [url]https://github.com/torvalds/linux[/url] Meet the Linux kernel. It's been ported to probably hundreds of architectures. Obviously a lot of the big software packages aren't out for EVERY platform, but there's solid support for the intel architectures, ARM, and PowerPC at the very minimum.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;38238363]You're right, there's a lot more, but there's no changes that could possibly mean so much that Valve would suddenly decide that Windows 8 sucks ass compared to windows 7. Again, I'll refer to this article: [url]http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/windows-8-gaming-performance,review-32553.html[/url][/QUOTE] The fact that Valve doesn't even use Dx10 or 11 and the horrible performance and design of Steam for Windows should be enough to convince anyone that Valve really doesn't want to improve their games for Windows...

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;38238547]But writing a whole OS to run on both ARM, x86-64, POWER and what architecture we might stumble upon? With my fairly limited knowledge on the subject, wouldn't it become harder and harder to code with each added architecture? You'd have to have it working on everything, and developing applications for a huge variety of platforms sounds like a pain in the ass.[/QUOTE] Linux is the only OS that does this. It's easy for me to write code which could run on ARM or PowerPC, [b]providing I do it right[/b].

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;38238580]Didn't Microsoft talk about them "Merging the tablet and the PC"? What makes you believe that the disparity between ARM - Locked - x86 - Unlocked will stay forever? I don't know if it will or will not; it might, it might not. From what I understand, though, Valve thinks it might not, and Linux is seemingly their backup experiment. [B]IF[/B] Windows 9 or whatever end up fully locked, independently on platform, they will be fucked. It makes both development and economical sense for them to attempt to get footing in another boat, as the original one is getting scarily rocky.[/QUOTE] Why would Microsoft do that? They'd throw pretty much their whole ecosystem away. And then again, what does that change about Windows 8? Valve developing for Linux is great, but their reasoning is shit. That's what I'm saying.

[QUOTE=Winner;38238593]Welp, that bars every modern game ever from being on the app store :v[/QUOTE] In the worst case, there are going to be third-party made workarounds and jailbreaks.

[QUOTE=Winner;38238593]Welp, that bars every modern game ever from being on the app store :v[/QUOTE] That's for the Windows Store, not for the desktop. Android and Apple have the same rules for their stores.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;38238588]But it's not like Steam is going to be interested in the RT platform? It's ARM, it's not really powerful enough to push even some of the simplest games on Steam. It shouldn't change a thing, and it's only on RT where you're forced to use the store for applications. Valve is saying that [I]Windows 8[/I] is bad for choice, not [I]Windows RT[/I] and they're two completely different animals. It's a very important distinction.[/QUOTE] Architecture has nothing to do with power.

I'll wait for windows 9 and hope that this "let's try to make our software look more like mac" bullshit is just some weird phase Microsoft is going through, like their mid-life crisis.

I love that feeling... When something new comes along and someone doesn't like it (I'm talking about Win 8), he's automatically a bandwagoner and a moron.

Facepunch: where software plebs weigh in on topics they have no knowledge of. [editline]29th October 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Swilly;38238551]Yet you have to still root your phone anyway.[/QUOTE] Well seeing as my phone let me root my phone/unlock the bootloader without a tool...

[QUOTE=Jookia;38238614]Linux is the only OS that does this. It's easy for me to write code which could run on ARM or PowerPC, [b]providing I do it right[/b].[/QUOTE] Writing basic code is fine, but what happens when you start coding UIs, or want to do touch? Webcam and accelerometers? Support for those devices starts to plummet and coding for them becomes much more difficult and infuriating.