Valve: Linux More Viable Than Windows 8 for Gaming - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Foda;38238674]Writing basic code is fine, but what happens when you start coding UIs, or want to do touch? Webcam and accelerometers? Support for those devices starts to plummet and coding for them becomes much more difficult and infuriating.[/QUOTE] If the library/API that does that is platform independent then your code will automatically be platform-independent.

[QUOTE=Foda;38238674]Writing basic code is fine, but what happens when you start coding UIs, or want to do touch? Webcam and accelerometers? Support for those devices starts to plummet and coding for them becomes much more difficult and infuriating.[/QUOTE] Again, all you have to do is port the base libraries and all applications will run fine without knowing any different. It's that simple.

[QUOTE=Jawalt;38238545]Also Window RT is just a nickname for Windows ported to ARM. ARM is a popular platform, it's not like there isn't a fuckton of ARM software[/QUOTE] It's not. WindowsRT isn't just a nickname. There's a couple of differences between Windows 8 and WindowsRT in access to apis mostly. Most likely there's a lot of other differences as well. [QUOTE=Foda;38238674]Writing basic code is fine, but what happens when you start coding UIs, or want to do touch? Webcam and accelerometers? Support for those devices starts to plummet and coding for them becomes much more difficult and infuriating.[/QUOTE] And that is why there's a layer between you and the hardware. Why do you think DirectX and OpenGL exist. Those are essentially libraries which are common to the system which essentially give you common access to the hardware in a sense without having to worry about the multitude of different specific models of the same hardware.

[QUOTE=Jawalt;38238626]Architecture has nothing to do with power.[/QUOTE] If so, why are we using x86-64 for desktops and ARM for mobile devices when ARM is clearly more efficient? It has lots to do with power.

But, what happens if the masses goes to Linux? I'm sure that exploits and viruses will appear instantly. Then more and more devs will fix the security holes, that Linux will start to evolve even faster than before, so the distro devs have to compile our precisious kernel every day. Then the rolling release distros like Arch and Gentoo will be the most secure distros ever, because they will have the latest patchset in the kernel as soon as it appears.

[QUOTE=Jookia;38238337]It means Microsoft have a monopoly, and that's never a good thing. We've seen how this worked in the past. I don't know the guidelines of the store specifically, but I'm certain that there's the typical 'we reserve the right to remove your app for no fucking reason' clause. BTW I don't mean Microsoft will have, or may have, I mean they [i]have[/i]. They've won.[/quote] Apple have the exact same thing for both iOS App Store, and the OS X Store, have they "won" as well when you can install apps through downloaded installers or third-party stores like Cydia? Because the same thing is bound to happen to Windows 8. [QUOTE=Jookia;38238337]Fucking awesome, let's just let our tablets (the future of common computing pretty much) get locked down. It's okay as long as our desktops are fine isn't it?[/QUOTE] Not seeing a massive amount of "locking down" here, just what we've always had in the modern market. Yeah more open tablets would be nice, hell, to the level of desktop computers would be awesome, but along comes our old friend "retarded user base" who gets confused easily and refuses to use them, causing the entire market for tablets to fail. For the sake of the users, centralization is good. The way Linux handles it is pretty sweet, but Windows doesn't have a concept of package management, so we're going to have to stick with what we're given until we can get MS working on one. But I'm loving the attack on me the most out of this entire post. Where in that couple of quotes did I ever say I wanted more locked down systems? Where did I say I support the move to use a Store with quality control restrictions. Oh. Wait. I didn't. I was just telling it like it is, Win 8 RT is locked down compared to Win 8 Pro, having the store doesn't stop developers from integrating their own profit generating services into the application as long as it doesn't totally remove using the Store.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;38238709]If so, why are we using x86-64 for desktops and ARM for mobile devices when ARM is clearly more efficient? It has lots to do with power.[/QUOTE] That's just the markets these cpu architectures have made niches for themselves in. Look at when the Macs with PowerPC were competing speedwise with Intel chips, it's not about performance. It's just what the name implies a different architecture.

[QUOTE=Chrille;38237951]Microsoft controls the content that appears in the app store, like Apple and their store.[/QUOTE] Not only that, but I've done some Windows 8 Development and the guidelines/rules to Apps that are supposed to be, well the term isn't viable anymore but "Metro". They're all supposed to have a very similar look and feel. Most apps are supposed to have horizontal scrolling, appbar functionality, widget bar functionality, and a ton of other things. It could be that Valve just doesn't want to conform to this new closed methodology, or it could be something else. I agree that I dislike Windows 8 because of how that system works, but as an OS it's perfectly fine.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;38238615]Why would Microsoft do that? They'd throw pretty much their whole ecosystem away. And then again, what does that change about Windows 8? Valve developing for Linux is great, but their reasoning is shit. That's what I'm saying.[/QUOTE] Microsoft would do it for one or better, three simple reasons: 1. To be more evenly competitive against their main rival - Apple - who has the appstore as the sole way of getting programs - AND IS CLEARLY DOING REALLY WELL, SO WHY NOT COPY THEM, HMMM? 2. For the same reasons apple is already doing it - to ensure better stability and integration, ability to enforce unified look and structure etc, etc, which seemingly are part of what drags so many people towards Apple. 3. To get a buck on every single app the folks on these platforms buy or sell. Because that's what would happen. Just as Apple (and ironically, Steam) do, they would make massive amounts of revenue on apps OTHER people develop and sell, on their Windows. And what does it change about Windows 8? I don't think much. I don't think Valve has a real problem with Windows 8. It has a problem with what might [I]follow.[/I] They are afraid of the lockdown spreading to x86. That's why they are looking for alternatives, for shifting their whole business on platform they can be sure about to stay accepting towards their needs.

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;38238580]What makes you believe that the disparity between ARM - Locked - x86 - Unlocked will stay forever? I don't know if it will or will not; it might, it might not.[/QUOTE] Can you imagine the shitstorm that would be generated from such a move? That is exactly why it won't happen, MS have too much to lose right now for them to even consider such an idea. Hell, if Win RT doesn't work out great this time around, the next one might be more open. Because right now developing for it just doesn't look as appealing as x86/64.

[QUOTE=redBadger;38238299]Windows 8 is great and anyone who disagrees have never used it before.[/QUOTE] There is no real need for me to upgrade to w8 from w7. Tha's like me getting an iPhone 4 and then upgrading to an iPhone 4s. What's wrong with the current model you have if everything you needs works. Not to even mention that some applications wouldn't work with the newer models until developers applied fixes.

[QUOTE=Wormy;38238621]Valve still support mods a lot, just look at Black Mesa. It got great support from Valve, hell, it even got accepted in Greenlight.[/QUOTE] Which is a game based off what, hint self stroking ego, and how long has it been in production? The latest Source tools for the LATEST SOURCE GAMES are nearly non-existent, have no documentation or are shoddy and closed off at best.

[QUOTE=redBadger;38238299]Windows 8 is great and anyone who disagrees have never used it before.[/QUOTE] I hate people like you. It's like I can't formulate my own opinion and I need some asshole to shove his down my throat like it's god's fucking word.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;38238733]Apple have the exact same thing for both iOS App Store, and the OS X Store, have they "won" as well when [B]you can install apps through downloaded installers or third-party stores like Cydia?[/B] Because the same thing is bound to happen to Windows 8. [/quote] Valve could never capitalize on anything like that. Legal reasons. [quote] Not seeing a massive amount of "locking down" here, just what we've always had in the modern market. Yeah more open tablets would be nice, hell, to the level of desktop computers would be awesome, but along comes our old friend "retarded user base" who gets confused easily and refuses to use them, causing the entire market for tablets to fail. For the sake of the users, centralization is good. The way Linux handles it is pretty sweet, but Windows doesn't have a concept of package management, so we're going to have to stick with what we're given until we can get MS working on one. But I'm loving the attack on me the most out of this entire post. Where in that couple of quotes did I ever say I wanted more locked down systems? Where did I say I support the move to use a Store with quality control restrictions. Oh. Wait. I didn't. I was just telling it like it is, Win 8 RT is locked down compared to Win 8 Pro, having the store doesn't stop developers from integrating their own profit generating services into the application as long as it doesn't totally remove using the Store.[/QUOTE] As I am repeating over and over, I think they are so worried about what Windows 8 ARE, but what [I]MIGHT[/I] follow.

The people agreeing with Valve here are either asskissing or they just mindlessly hate Windows 8. Steam and Steam games run on Windows 8 no problem. I'm gonna go ahead and say a few games are running faster for me on Windows 8. I know how much you guys love blowing Valve, which they do deserve, but where do you draw the line between shameless ass-kissing and having an opinion that most logically corresponds to your beliefs? Stop being fucking biased. Windows 8 is just fine for games. They're just butthurt that it ships with a built-in Store.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;38238709]If so, why are we using x86-64 for desktops and ARM for mobile devices when ARM is clearly more efficient? It has lots to do with power.[/QUOTE] Because x86-64 OSes and apps. [QUOTE=hexpunK;38238733]Not seeing a massive amount of "locking down" here, just what we've always had in the modern market.[/QUOTE] Which is locking down. If you have to root your phone to install shit, that's being locked down. It's also locking down in comparison to Windows 7. [QUOTE=hexpunK;38238733]Yeah more open tablets would be nice, hell, to the level of desktop computers would be awesome[/QUOTE] It would be, and I think it's kind of Microsoft's duty to do this seeing as it presents Windows 8 as a desktop and tablet OS. [QUOTE=hexpunK;38238733]For the sake of the users, centralization is good. The way Linux handles it is pretty sweet, but Windows doesn't have a concept of package management, so we're going to have to stick with what we're given until we can get MS working on one.[/QUOTE] I'd be fine with the app store if it meant it could be redirected. In Linux you can host your own package management servers in your business' Intranet or home, but with Windows 8 it's either Microsoft or nothing. It's a monopoly. [QUOTE=hexpunK;38238733]Where in that couple of quotes did I ever say I wanted more locked down systems? Where did I say I support the move to use a Store with quality control restrictions. Oh. Wait. I didn't.[/QUOTE] I never said you did! [QUOTE=hexpunK;38238733]I was just telling it like it is, Win 8 RT is locked down compared to Win 8 Pro, having the store doesn't stop developers from integrating their own profit generating services into the application as long as it doesn't totally remove using the Store.[/QUOTE] The store bars downloadable content, so you can't do anything like DLCs or Steam or Minecraft mods in Metro.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;38238767]Can you imagine the shitstorm that would be generated from such a move? That is exactly why it won't happen, MS have too much to lose right now for them to even consider such an idea. Hell, if Win RT doesn't work out great this time around, the next one might be more open. Because right now developing for it just doesn't look as appealing as x86/64.[/QUOTE] Please, let me assure you I do [B]NOT[/B] say "IT WILL BE THIS WAY, THE END IS NIGH", and I don't think either is Valve. It's tho a threat I believe could be real, and so apparently does Valve. I am trying to explain how I understand their reasoning and decisions, and this simply seems to be the best explanation.

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;38238747]And what does it change about Windows 8? I don't think much. I don't think Valve has a real problem with Windows 8. It has a problem with what might [I]follow.[/I] They are afraid of the lockdown spreading to x86. That's why they are looking for alternatives, for shifting their whole business on platform they can be sure about to stay accepting towards their needs.[/QUOTE]This is exactly what they have been saying on this issue the whole time. They are opposed to it becoming a locked down system in the future, which is why they are saying that Linux is more viable because it won't become locked down in any regard.

[QUOTE=Jookia;38238691]Again, all you have to do is port the base libraries and all applications will run fine without knowing any different. It's that simple.[/QUOTE] Which is assuming that the drivers for said device exist/work in the first place.

[QUOTE=SA Spyder;38238801]The people agreeing with Valve here are either asskissing or they just mindlessly hate Windows 8. Steam and Steam games run on Windows 8 no problem. I'm gonna go ahead and say a few games are running faster for me on Windows 8. I know how much you guys love blowing Valve, which they do deserve, but where do you draw the line between shameless ass-kissing and having an opinion that most logically corresponds to your beliefs? Stop being fucking biased. Windows 8 is just fine for games. They're just butthurt that it ships with a built-in Store.[/QUOTE] And you still don't understand what's actually Valve's gist at all. It's not Metro, and it's not the Store itself. Try to read my posts. You are out of the bowl.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;38238615]Why would Microsoft do that? They'd throw pretty much their whole ecosystem away. And then again, what does that change about Windows 8? Valve developing for Linux is great, but their reasoning is shit. That's what I'm saying.[/QUOTE] HEre have a quick comp sci. lesson: [cpp] int main(int argc, char **argv){ for(int i = 0; i < argc; i++) { puts(argv[i]) }}[/cpp] BAM will print any arguments supplied to it on literally just about any architecture imagineable. The only difference between architecture here is the size of the datatypes. That and APIs are really the two things that hold things back from proper porting. Writing good code with the C standard in mind will allow you to go from one platform to another pretty easy. MAY OR MAY NOT BE VALID C CODE ALSO MISSING AN INCLUDE.

[QUOTE=Simski;38238631]I'll wait for windows 9 and hope that this "let's try to make our software look more like mac" bullshit is just some weird phase Microsoft is going through, like their mid-life crisis.[/QUOTE] The marketplace isn't just a stupid phase. It's something that's generally massively beneficial to the average consumer. As it makes it massively easier for them to aquire new software without having to worry about phishing or malware. Think of it as an evolution something like this Commandline interfaces > GUI interfaces (make it suddenly far easier to use the computer) > baked in marketplaces - a safe and functional way to access things for the GUI interface for which you would otherwise have to have had at least some computer knowledge however minimal.

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;38238796]Valve could never capitalize on anything like that. Legal reasons. As I am repeating over and over, I think they are so worried about what Windows 8 ARE, but what [I]MIGHT[/I] follow.[/QUOTE] Slippery slope, doesn't work without massive amounts of evidence.

[QUOTE=Jookia;38238807]Because x86-64 OSes and apps. Which is locking down. If you have to root your phone to install shit, that's being locked down. It's also locking down in comparison to Windows 7. It would be, and I think it's kind of Microsoft's duty to do this seeing as it presents Windows 8 as a desktop and tablet OS. I'd be fine with the app store if it meant it could be redirected. In Linux you can host your own package management servers in your business' Intranet or home, but with Windows 8 it's either Microsoft or nothing. It's a monopoly. I never said you did! The store bars downloadable content, so you can't do anything like DLCs or Steam or Minecraft mods in Metro.[/QUOTE] Why exactly are you responding to things you wrote yourself? I mean what the fuck are you doing.

[QUOTE=Jookia;38238807]B The store bars downloadable content, so you can't do anything like DLCs or Steam or Minecraft mods in Metro.[/QUOTE] Actually in app purchases already work....

[QUOTE=Foda;38238848]Which is assuming that the drivers for said device exist/work in the first place.[/QUOTE] Generally it's safe to make this assumption.

Windows 8 is Windows 7 with a built-in [b]optional[/b] store. I bolded it for a reason. It's Microsoft's own repository with certain restrictions that they believe make sense. Developers don't have to use it. They can have their own repositories. The only difference here is that Microsoft supplied an official repository that ships with Windows, and that's why Valve is shitting themselves. And honestly I don't know why; Windows store won't ever match Steam anyway. It's far too late to make a significant impact and offers no improvements for games over Steam. Microsoft forcing you to use their store and forcing devs to host applications only on the store is a closed system. [i]Microsoft having an optional store for devs to use if they choose to is not an example of a closed system.[/i]

[QUOTE=Swilly;38238864]Slippery slope, doesn't work without massive amounts of evidence.[/QUOTE] I am pretty sure Valve has enough evidence it needs to swing itself in wholly new direction because of it. I can't prove this to you and I don't want to, either (contrary to how it might seem, I do [B]not[/B] wish any of this happen. Only time will tell. [editline]29th October 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=SA Spyder;38238894]Windows 8 is Windows 7 with a built-in [B]optional[/B] store. I bolded it for a reason. It's Microsoft's own repository with certain restrictions that they believe make sense. Developers don't have to use it. They can have their own repositories. The only difference here is that Microsoft supplied an official repository that ships with Windows, and that's why Valve is shitting themselves. And honestly I don't know why; Windows store won't ever match Steam anyway. It's far too late to make a significant impact and offers no improvements for games over Steam. Microsoft forcing you to use their store and forcing devs to host applications only on the store is a closed system. [I]Microsoft having an optional store for devs to use if they choose to is not an example of a closed system.[/I][/QUOTE] [I]Reeeaaaadd myyy pooooossssstss[/I] [I]all over last paaaageeee[/I]~~~~

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;38238878]Why exactly are you responding to things you wrote yourself? I mean what the fuck are you doing.[/QUOTE] Aww shit I used the wrong quote tags. Sorry!

[QUOTE=SA Spyder;38238894]Windows 8 is Windows 7 with a built-in [b]optional[/b] store. I bolded it for a reason. It's Microsoft's own repository with certain restrictions that they believe make sense. Developers don't have to use it. They can have their own repositories. The only difference here is that Microsoft supplied an official repository that ships with Windows, and that's why Valve is shitting themselves. And honestly I don't know why; Windows store won't ever match Steam anyway. It's far too late to make a significant impact and offers no improvements for games over Steam. Microsoft forcing you to use their store and forcing devs to host applications only on the store is a closed system. [i]Microsoft having an optional store for devs to use if they choose to is not an example of a closed system.[/i][/QUOTE] Except it's not optional on all Windows 8 installations (ARM).