Valve: Linux More Viable Than Windows 8 for Gaming - Polidicks

Valve seem to be acting pretty fucking dumb over this. Maybe I'm missing the point, so can somebody tell me what the problem is? The platform is closed? Because of an app store...? Didn't they recently port steam to the Mac, which also has an app store, and which is also more closed than Windows? There's probably some other motive, I'd be betting it's the Windows Store being competition. Steam makes a lot of money from Indie Games, and they could quite easily be sold on this other store (which is automatically bundled with Windows 8). Fair enough if that's their issue, but to suggest Linux is a better alternative is truly laughable.

[QUOTE=Jookia;38239107]Why?[/QUOTE] Because tablets are a complete side-track development in the gaming industry, forever bound to the casual gaming market. The most important gaming platforms for the triple-A developers will always be the high-performing ones, because only those will be capable of providing the processing power required for those big titles that pave way for the future of the industry and keeps it evolving and improving.

[QUOTE=Mesothere;38240288]Valve seem to be acting pretty fucking dumb over this. Maybe I'm missing the point, so can somebody tell me what the problem is? The platform is closed? Because of an app store...? Didn't they recently port steam to the Mac, which also has an app store, and which is also more closed than Windows? There's probably some other motive, I'd be betting it's the Windows Store being competition. Steam makes a lot of money from Indie Games, and they could quite easily be sold on this other store (which is automatically bundled with Windows 8). Fair enough if that's their issue, but to suggest Linux is a better alternative is truly laughable.[/QUOTE]I hate the argument that they are complaining because of competition. How much have they done in response to Amazon, which beat them to the Summer Sale this year and is seen as their steepest competition? What about Origins, where EA blamed them for absolutely everything they could? What about all the other Digital Distribution platforms out there?

Windows 8 has an app store because a) They want a guaranteed income from devices like apple have - the app store is something that apple got incredibly right and it's incredibly successful because of that. This is a given, microsoft want to make money and this is the best way to do it. b) Windows RT needed a repository for apps, and rather than confusing people by allowing them to install any old app from websites and risking viruses, malware etc that plague x86 windows they decided to start afresh and build a closed, apple like ecosystem which on top of being more secure is also simpler and easier for the average user to understand (you just search for an app, install it and it'll update automatically just like all your other apps). Thsi simplicity is a big part of why the app store is so successful; because people simply weren't able to do that on their phones, or even their computers before. It's optional in x86 windows because the legacy and future of windows (x86) is still very much based around the desktop and installing apps from the internet; the store exists in x86 to not diverge the platform too much and to give those with x86 tablets the opportunity to use the tablet apps. If that made any sense yay [editline]29th October 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Im Crimson;38240334]Because tablets are a complete side-track development in the gaming industry, forever bound to the casual gaming market. The most important gaming platforms for the triple-A developers will always be the high-performing ones, because only those will be capable of providing the processing power required for those big titles that pave way for the future of the industry and keeps it evolving and improving.[/QUOTE] implying processing power has had any major influence on people's capacity to innovate in the gaming market since like 2002 look at battlefield 3 and/or MOH warfighter, it's an incredibly demanding, beautiful looking derivative shit of a game - tablets have the capacity to provide loads of incredible new gaming experiences though unfortunately most people are simply developing games for them which are just blown up phone games or games that are in genres that don't work very well with the form factor (i.e. shooters). The audacity to claim that processing power is holding innovation back in a thread about valve - a company which uses fairly outdated tech to deliver incredibly entertaining, innovative games that run on 7 year old hardware is just amazing

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;38240376]I hate the argument that they are complaining because of competition. How much have they done in response to Amazon, which beat them to the Summer Sale this year and is seen as their steepest competition? What about Origins, where EA blamed them for absolutely everything they could? What about all the other Digital Distribution platforms out there?[/QUOTE] What else could they be complaining about? The only actual complaint I've heard Valve make is that they think Windows is becoming a closed platform because of the store. Also Linux being more viable for gaming is the dumbest thing I've heard for a while, how is it more viable if it won't run anything but Source games and some indie games on launch. For it to be more viable it has to run EVERYTHING flawlessly.

[QUOTE=RautaPalli;38240494]Also Linux being more viable for gaming is the dumbest thing I've heard for a while, how is it more viable if it won't run anything but Source games and some indie games on launch. For it to be more viable it has to run EVERYTHING flawlessly.[/QUOTE]The idea that it has to be absolutely perfect immediately is stupid and short-sighted. Their entire purpose is to shift focus from Windows to Linux so that support for it grows and more resources will be dedicated to making games play properly on the system.

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;38240550]The idea that it has to be absolutely perfect immediately is stupid and short-sighted. Their entire purpose is to shift focus from Windows to Linux so that support for it grows and more resources will be dedicated to making games play properly on the system.[/QUOTE] That will take time. Do you seriously think that Linux will be anywhere near as viable for gaming as Windows 8? If he said that Linux is more viable for gaming than Windows overall, that I could agree with depending on what kind of a route Microsoft decides to take with Windows 9 and forward. Linux won't be anywhere near as viable during the lifetime of Windows 8 (3-5 years).

I don't care about their reasons to dislike windows as long as they evolve linux as a gaming platform. Better be Valve than EA or someone else. Not that I use linux, but more games working on more OSes is a good thing. Plus Unity(the game engine) will also support linux in the future so that's a huge plus. It's not like Valve is dropping all support for Windows, they're just adapting a new OS that they believe has potential. Someone has to start the movement. Wait and after a while we might get better drivers and more native games. What's not to like?

[QUOTE=RautaPalli;38240646]That will take time. Do you seriously think that Linux will be anywhere near as viable for gaming as Windows 8? If he said that Linux is more viable for gaming than Windows overall, that I could agree with depending on what kind of a route Microsoft decides to take with Windows 9 and forward. Linux won't be anywhere near as viable during the lifetime of Windows 8 (3-5 years).[/QUOTE] I agree. But it's great that they're starting to make a move on moving over to Linux. Windows wasn't the best OS for gaming at first (DOS was) but then they started to implement stuff like DirectX and things started to get better.

Valve aren't saying games work horrible on windows 8, they are just saying how Linux is even better for gaming. Even if they do dislike windows 8, all they are doing is making a comparison. I don't see them even mention anything to do with the app store or any reasons they dislike it in the article.

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;38240376]I hate the argument that they are complaining because of competition. How much have they done in response to Amazon, which beat them to the Summer Sale this year and is seen as their steepest competition? What about Origins, where EA blamed them for absolutely everything they could? What about all the other Digital Distribution platforms out there?[/QUOTE] You install Windows and the Store is staring you in the face. You don't have to navigate to a website, you don't have to install some application, you don't have to navigate to it.

[QUOTE=Theportalmaster;38240832]Valve aren't saying games work horrible on windows 8, they are just saying how Linux is even better for gaming. Even if they do dislike windows 8, all they are doing is making a comparison. I don't see them even mention anything to do with the app store or any reasons they dislike it in the article.[/QUOTE] It truly is, the amount of improvements they have done to the Source Engine in general due to porting it to Linux, they could not have done without Linux's openness.

Despite their bullshit reasons, their intentions are quite valiant. Moving the gaming industry to an open source initiative is something I'm sure all of us can agree on.

[QUOTE=Mesothere;38240887]You install Windows and the Store is staring you in the face. You don't have to navigate to a website, you don't have to install some application, you don't have to navigate to it.[/QUOTE]Ok, and?

[QUOTE=SA Spyder;38240130]Yeah you're known to dick around with no valuable input to anything. Continue.[/QUOTE] Ohh, kettle calling pot black :v:

[QUOTE=SL128;38238036]Read this. It's probably relevant. [url]http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/179420/[/url][/QUOTE] no because Metro is more limited in terms of graphics and uses javascript and html. They did this for cross compatibility between x86 PC's, ARM tablets, and Windows Phones. It will never be as good as Win32.

[QUOTE=Doctor Zedacon;38240944]Ok, and?[/QUOTE] So it's easier to get stuff, and thus a bigger potential threat? I'd love to hear a good 5 reasons why anyone could consider Linux superior to Windows for gaming... It has barely any first-party driver support The catalogue of games it currently runs is paltry It doesn't support a wide range of frameworks It isn't as easy to use (I say having owning a PC running Ubuntu. It may not be representative of all distros, but I feel it's a bit of a nightmare).

[QUOTE=Generic.Monk;38240396] implying processing power has had any major influence on people's capacity to innovate in the gaming market since like 2002 look at battlefield 3 and/or MOH warfighter, it's an incredibly demanding, beautiful looking derivative shit of a game - tablets have the capacity to provide loads of incredible new gaming experiences though unfortunately most people are simply developing games for them which are just blown up phone games or games that are in genres that don't work very well with the form factor (i.e. shooters). The audacity to claim that processing power is holding innovation back in a thread about valve - a company which uses fairly outdated tech to deliver incredibly entertaining, innovative games that run on 7 year old hardware is just amazing[/QUOTE] Point taken, however the limitations of mobile platforms as gaming devices extends well beyond just processing power. Unsuitable input methods, interface and storage capacity are other factors that together severely limit game design and their capacity of delivering engaging experiences. Processing power retains a central role in gaming development because it sets the constraints of visual fidelity and complexity, input methods because they set the constraints of interaction and level of immersion, and storage capacity because it constrains the scale of the game. Continuous technological advancements in these areas pushes these constraints and drives the gaming industry forward, and in these aspects mobile devices are essentially a step backwards. This leads me to believe that mobile platforms are highly unlikely to represent the future of gaming. Also, Valve has indeed been providing incredible entertainment with the technology at their disposal, however it's pretty much general consensus that their dated Source is holding them back. Their most revolutionary titles that impacted the gaming industry the most, Half-Life and Half-Life 2, both presented massive advancements in visual fidelity at their release times respectively. EDIT: Valve moving to help Linux become a bigger gaming platform is 100% positive, calling it more viable than Windows 8 in its current form however seems a bit... incorrect?

[QUOTE=Mesothere;38241005]So it's easier to get stuff, and thus a bigger potential threat? I'd love to hear a good 5 reasons why anyone could consider Linux superior to Windows for gaming... It has barely any first-party driver support The catalogue of games it currently runs is paltry It doesn't support a wide range of frameworks It isn't as easy to use (I say having owning a PC running Ubuntu. It may not be representative of all distros, but I feel it's a bit of a nightmare).[/QUOTE] Driver support from nVidia is excellent. A lot of games do work with a little tweaking, still that's not the reason you'd use Linux in the first place. It has excellent support for Java, C# (Mono), Python and a ton of other stuff, I'd argue better than Windows as it's a much nicer platform to develop on. It might not be easy for a Windows users to adapt but if you put the effort in it's not that difficult. Linux is not superior to Windows for gaming, not yet anyway, this is however a big step in the right direction.

Im just going to wait a few years for the next windows to come out...

[QUOTE=Im Crimson;38240334]Because tablets are a complete side-track development in the gaming industry, forever bound to the casual gaming market. The most important gaming platforms for the triple-A developers will always be the high-performing ones, because only those will be capable of providing the processing power required for those big titles that pave way for the future of the industry and keeps it evolving and improving.[/QUOTE] You're wrong. It's just that the gaming market for mobiles sucks. It's not that there won't or can't be game changers. (Hi, Inifinity Blade)

[QUOTE=Chryseus;38241722]Driver support from nVidia is excellent. A lot of games do work with a little tweaking, still that's not the reason you'd use Linux in the first place. It has excellent support for Java, C# (Mono), Python and a ton of other stuff, I'd argue better than Windows as it's a much nicer platform to develop on. It might not be easy for a Windows users to adapt but if you put the effort in it's not that difficult. Linux is not superior to Windows for gaming, not yet anyway, this is however a big step in the right direction.[/QUOTE] Some windows games even run better in linux which is pretty amazing - shame that the process to get them working is still pretty hacky and convoluted and therefore beyond the average windows user (it's better than it used to be but it still needs a lot of tweaking which is a world away from the wizard installers you;ll get in windows)

[QUOTE=Generic.Monk;38241898]Some windows games even run better in linux which is pretty amazing - shame that the process to get them working is still pretty hacky and convoluted and therefore beyond the average windows user (it's better than it used to be but it still needs a lot of tweaking which is a world away from the wizard installers you;ll get in windows)[/QUOTE] On the newest versions of Wine anything Source or Unreal runs basically perfectly with 0 fiddling.

[QUOTE=Jawalt;38241823]You're wrong. It's just that the gaming market for mobiles sucks. It's not that there won't or can't be game changers. (Hi, Inifinity Blade)[/QUOTE] Infinity blade may have been quite a game changer inside the mobile gaming market, but the key thing here is that it doesn't do anything that couldn't have been done better on traditional consoles. Compared to other console/PC RPG's it is repetitive, aggressively linear, very short in terms of actual content and only manages to look as good as it does because it relies on massive amounts of pre-computation. EDIT: So what edge does gaming on mobile platforms have? Well, mobility. But will that alone make mobile platforms the future of gaming, considering the advantages of the technology of stationary consoles? Probably not.

[QUOTE=Im Crimson;38241954]Infinity blade may have been quite a game changer inside the mobile gaming market, but the key thing here is that it doesn't do anything that couldn't have been done better on traditional consoles. It is repetitive, aggressively linear,[B] very short in terms of actual content and only manages to look as good as it does because it relies on massive amounts of pre-computation.[/B][/QUOTE] Hi, this is how EVERY game is.

[QUOTE=Jawalt;38241918]On the newest versions of Wine anything Source or Unreal runs basically perfectly with 0 fiddling.[/QUOTE] Yeah I got HL2 running with no issues whatsoever, it was fantastic. Getting the laptop to switch to discrete graphics was another story but meh. It's just a shame that that's the exception and not the rule :/ [editline]30th October 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Im Crimson;38241954]and only manages to look as good as it does because it relies on massive amounts of pre-computation.[/QUOTE] mirrors edge's lighting is basically all pre computed and it's one of the game's most praised features and people still ooh and ahh about how good it looks conclusion: who cares

i wonder if microsoft is going to get pissed and try slandering valve for taking some well deserved shits on them

[QUOTE=Jookia;38239025]I'm not going to. I'm also going to call Microsoft out on their bullshit when it affects the computing industry.[/QUOTE] meanwhile Apple tablets never got crap for having locked bootlockers

[QUOTE=The Baconator;38242040]meanwhile Apple tablets never got crap for having locked bootlockers[/QUOTE] uh I'm pretty sure they did, constantly

[QUOTE=Jawalt;38241918]On the newest versions of Wine anything Source or Unreal runs basically perfectly with 0 fiddling.[/QUOTE] cool why is it all the Wine proponents here have barely any activity on their Steam account? Like they always have like 2 games listed in their gameplay stats with like 4 hours on each for the 2 weeks gameplay stats reports. I never see a "screaming eagles" (they got rid of those lines anyways) on a wine Steam user. Because a PC gamer moving from Windows to Linux just insn't practical at this moment