Valve: Linux More Viable Than Windows 8 for Gaming - Polidicks

The problem with Windows 8 and it's store isn't Windows 8 or the store. It's that if people accept it, the next Windows OSs will move further and further towards a closed Microsoft platform. Microsoft would love to make desktops into closed platforms, they'd earn a boatload of money off of it. They already tried (and still try) to switch all gamers over to the Xbox (again, each game sold on the Xbox is a lot more profit for MS than one sold on the PC). Obviously they can't just go from W7 to a closed MS platform as consumers would reject it and they'd lose money, however if they force it gradually consumers usually lap it up (see DLC a few years ago compared to now, for example).

[QUOTE=Van-man;38245954]It's Apple, they're expected to try and fuck the customer over.[/QUOTE] That's an extremely naive vision of business

So Valve wants to bring up the user-base of desktop Linux (mainly so they don't have all of their eggs in one and a little bit baskets) and you're all saying they're making a mistake for doing so? The fact that there is nobody in charge of monetizing the Linux kernel (and for the most part, any desktop OS based on it) is infinitely more attractive to developers than a platform which has it's own motives (which is make money). And now that Microsoft is directly in the business of distributing software, you can be sure they'll be putting their store up front, and don't just say "oh but WinRT is different!" because no, no it isn't. WinRT is just the same kernel on a different form factor (in fact, the fucking surface pro is the same form factor), just because the CPU is a different architecture doesn't mean you should let Microsoft govern what you do on your hardware. RT actually raises an interesting point, since there's no previous Windows ARM applications, they just blocked non-metro apps off completely, if that's not got your alarm bells ringing then perhaps you should step away from your computer and let an expert handle it. Plus, the Linux kernel is so god damn flexible you shouldn't really want to stay on windows, but eh that's a rant for another time.

[QUOTE=Swilly;38238539]Notice how all the major mods are built on the 2007 Source and just updated. The modding tools are dead for L4D, L4D2, for Portal(Which has a very closed map making program). There documentation is outdated and is no longer updated by actual Valve Developers. I'll just leave those two there.[/QUOTE] The map making for all Source games takes place in Hammer, which is by no means a "Very closed map making program" and has been unaltered since 4ever(It's basically the same as the Hammer for Goldsrc. Unless of course you're refering to that easy peasy map making program for Portal, in which case you know absolutely nothing about modding/mapping. The only thing Valve has done that has made modding more complicated is the introduction of their .vpk file system, which has its own ups & downs. [editline]30th October 2012[/editline] I just really hope I can look back on this news in 5 year and smile about the fact that DirectX is a fallen giant. I'm sick of money groping douchebags pointlessly restricting software to my OS instead of my hardware, forcing me to leave my OS for a newer one if I want arbitary graphical features. OpenGL 4lyf Linux also generally chews up a fraction of the resources of a Windows system, has cheaper(if not free) developing tools making game development even less resource restricted.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope]i really am not quite convinced yet that this nor other things is an harbinger of the end times in which microsoft makes everything 100% closed on their oses. maybe im being just optimistic but i think microsoft realized what they are going to lose if they made such a drastic move[/url]

[QUOTE=FullStreak12;38237620]Windows 8 is the best version of Windows to date. It runs all of my games just as well as Windows 7. I'm not going to Linux until all of my games work flawlessly on it.[/QUOTE] It don't even see metro anymore. Start8 bypasses it. So it is like a faster and more improved Windows 7 that also has an app store. How does that affact gaming? So far all of this whining over W8 being bad for gaming appears to be bogus for me and a lot of people are lashing out at W8 without even trying it.

[QUOTE]In a presentation at Ubuntu Developer Summit currently going on in Denmark, Drew Bliss from Valve said that Linux is becoming more viable platform [B]as an alternative to Windows 8[/B].[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.ubuntuvibes.com/2012/10/valve-linux-more-viable-than-windows-8.html[/url]

[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;38245376]Still isn't worth the bad UI and having to be deal with a locked down operating system with microsoft controlling software.[/QUOTE] Again what bad UI? A replacement of a menu that no one used apart from it's search box for a more mature product? Or a revamp of a lot of older menus for the ribbon which a lot of people find vastly superior? Most people claiming the UI is awful aproach it with the mindset that it's awfull and mentally go nadanadanada I wanna believe what I want to believe. It's just like breadcrumbing in vista and seven. WHen it first came out people lutterly hated it (Me included to be fully honest). Within a week of using it, moving back down to XP was a pain. Same goes for various improvements to snap and countless other things. And locked down? There's fairly big improvements overall to API's and technology used in windows 8, which all target third party developers. MS knows one of it's strongest points are exactly those. As such it keeps them happy in windows eight. In ways that a lot of linux devs won't ever be.

They don't like the way Windows is heading, so they're starting to support Linux. They aren't dropping Windows. The current version of Windows is fine but what if, for example, Win9 takes a step towards pushing gamers onto Xbox? It may sound crazy, but what if MS really do start making things tough for windows gamers and game developers? Wouldn't it be good to put some effort into turning Linux into a viable gaming platform now, while things are still fine? It's an insurance policy. You can't take out an insurance policy after everything's already gone to shit. What some people seem to be saying is: Linux is shit because no game developers support it, so it's stupid for a game developer to start supporting it. Games drive the entire market. If Valve start native support for Linux and things go well, it may encourage others to take it up. If a number of game developers are supporting Linux, but people are put off by the user-unfriendliness of the current interfaces, then there will be a greater need for interface developers to try to make things easier. If there's a large enough market to sell hardware to Linux users, then hardware designers will start writing Linux drivers. Developers and manufacturers don't support Linux, because nobody uses it for gaming. Nobody uses Linux for gaming, because developers and manufacturers don't support it. I've always said that what Linux has been missing is a high profile developer to prime the pump.

[QUOTE=st0rmforce;38247169]what if MS really do start making things tough for windows gamers and game developers? [/QUOTE] If MS has an ounce of common sense — which they do — they won't shoot themselves in the foot like that They've seen how massively praised W7 was, because it was "like XP, just much more better". They have absolutely nothing to gain from locking down Windows

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;38247218]If MS has an ounce of common sense — which they do — they won't shoot themselves in the foot like that They've seen how massively praised W7 was, because it was "like XP, just much more better". They have absolutely nothing to gain from locking down Windows[/QUOTE] Orly? [QUOTE=Awesomecaek;38238747]Microsoft would do it for one or better, three simple reasons: 1. To be more evenly competitive against their main rival - Apple - who has the appstore as the sole way of getting programs - AND IS CLEARLY DOING REALLY WELL, SO WHY NOT COPY THEM, HMMM? 2. For the same reasons apple is already doing it - to ensure better stability and integration, ability to enforce unified look and structure etc, etc, which seemingly are part of what drags so many people towards Apple. 3. To get a buck on every single app the folks on these platforms buy or sell. Because that's what would happen. Just as Apple (and ironically, Steam) do, they would make massive amounts of revenue on apps OTHER people develop and sell, on their Windows. [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;38247353]Orly?[/QUOTE] Uhhhhh Unless I'm wrong I'm fairly sure that you can get programs other than through the app store on macs

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;38246612]I really am not quite convinced yet that this nor other things are the harbinger of the end times in which Microsoft makes everything 100% closed on their OS. Maybe I am being just optimistic, but I think Microsoft realized what they are going to lose if they made such a drastic move.[/QUOTE] Good. That's your opinion. Now let me remind you why is this discussion taking place. [B]Valve[/B], a massive company employing with 300 employees and estimated equity of $2.5 Billion dollars seemingly has vision of their own. That's why they are doing what they are doing and that's why we are discussing this here. Sooo, who I gonna pan towards? My own common sense together with apparent prediction held as possible by Valve, who believes it enough to imply they are hopeful to completely change platform and already put massive amount of effort and money towards that [B]OR[/B] Facepunch posters, some of whom can't even be arsed to use capitalization or proper punctuation? Quite simple logical choice for me. [editline]30th October 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;38247382]Uhhhhh Unless I'm wrong I'm fairly sure that you can get programs other than through the app store on macs[/QUOTE] I doesn't matter you can on OSX. Point is this business and technological model has multiple advantages, on it's own and has proven itself to be legit. If they will get into position where they will be able to implement it with bearable amount of backlash, they will do it.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;38247382]Uhhhhh Unless I'm wrong I'm fairly sure that you can get programs other than through the app store on macs[/QUOTE] You can. FOr now. But you have to find the "Let me decide what i do with my own damn computer!" button. Otherwise, nothing but App Store programs will run. They're getting there. Big Brother is happening.

Until pro level apps come to linux it won't take off. But having a decent gaming library will be a good start.

You have to understand that Windows 8 is purely the Metro interface and everytime you use the desktop you are actually using the legacy-mode app in Windows 8. At least that's what Microsoft wants us to believe. That's why I won't buy Windows 8. They might have improved on the desktop "app", but what you are really buying is the Metro bullshit and the desktop is just an app for old legacy applications not compatible with Metro.

[QUOTE=SomeDumbShit;38237655]Yes I'm sure Valve are basing this off the Start Menu and nothing else because it's not like Valve know what they're doing when it comes to coding or anything.[/QUOTE] Yeah, its not like Gabe worked in microsoft for 12 years and became a millionaire doing it.

Been considering switching to Ubuntu when enough games support Linux.

[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;38247218]If MS has an ounce of common sense — which they do — they won't shoot themselves in the foot like that They've seen how massively praised W7 was, because it was "like XP, just much more better". They have absolutely nothing to gain from locking down Windows[/QUOTE] Does your crystal ball say what's going to happen with the Xbox in the next few years? Markets are crazy, complex things. Companies respond to them, influence them and attempt to control them. Consumers shape them and flow with them. There are loads of variables, all changing, all at the same time. You can predict what will probably happen in the next year or two with some accuracy, based on current behaviour and trends. Beyond that you have to assume a lot. For example, MS are working on their next Xbox. How can you say that you know exactly how they will behave after that hits the shelves? How do you know that making Windows a restrictive platform, let's say 5 years from now, would be shooting themselves in the foot? Valve just wants a plan B, they can sense the market changing and don't want to have to rely on MS staying benign forever. It's going to take time for Linux to be a truly viable alternative, so now's a good time to start putting effort into it.

[QUOTE=charlie c;38247456]Until pro level apps come to linux it won't take off. But having a decent gaming library will be a good start.[/QUOTE] Yeah cause it's not like Linux hasn't taken off in every other space except Desktop.

[QUOTE=Bomimo;38247447]You can. FOr now. But you have to find the "Let me decide what i do with my own damn computer!" button. Otherwise, nothing but App Store programs will run. They're getting there. Big Brother is happening.[/QUOTE] [B]Stop using slippery slope.[/B] [I][B]STOP IT.[/B][/I]

[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;38247415]Good. That's your opinion. Now let me remind you why is this discussion taking place. [B]Valve[/B], a massive company employing with 300 employees and estimated equity of $2.5 Billion dollars seemingly has vision of their own. That's why they are doing what they are doing and that's why we are discussing this here. Sooo, who I gonna pan towards? My own common sense together with apparent prediction held as possible by Valve, who believes it enough to imply they are hopeful to completely change platform and already put massive amount of effort and money towards that [B]OR[/B] Facepunch posters, some of whom can't even be arsed to use capitalization or proper punctuation? Quite simple logical choice for me.[/QUOTE] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority]fair[/url] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem]enough[/url]

i think the general misconception is because Win RT runs ARM processes, most legacy software won't run on it, full PC grade win 8 is not a problem, valve was just mad that Microsoft was getting into their business and offering a digital download store, where Microsoft has to approve of whatever is submitted.... really kinda hypocritical, that Gabe would say Microsoft is stifling the industry when Microsoft is doing exactly what steam does

This isn't a debate or even a proper argument. This is argument fallacy after argument fallacy. At the end of the day the entire point of the App Store is supposed to help casual users avoid things like Malware and Spyware and all that other shit that constantly plague Windows Systems. LIKE THE FUCKING LINUX REPOSITORIES.

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;38247670][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority]fair[/url] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem]enough[/url][/QUOTE] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft]I see what[/url] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Microsoft_competition_case]you did there[/url]

[QUOTE=Swilly;38247683]This isn't a debate or even a proper argument. This is argument fallacy after argument fallacy.[/QUOTE] its opinion and speculation were allowed to speculate and make opinions

[QUOTE=charlie c;38247456]Until pro level apps come to linux it won't take off. But having a decent gaming library will be a good start.[/QUOTE] They're already there, you're just not pro enough to use them. [editline]30th October 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Swilly;38247683]This isn't a debate or even a proper argument. This is argument fallacy after argument fallacy. At the end of the day the entire point of the App Store is supposed to help casual users avoid things like Malware and Spyware and all that other shit that constantly plague Windows Systems. LIKE THE FUCKING LINUX REPOSITORIES.[/QUOTE] At-least Linux repositories aren't locked down, so any trusted developer can also contribute to it.

[QUOTE=Swilly;38247659][B]Stop using slippery slope.[/B] [I][B]STOP IT.[/B][/I][/QUOTE] You can't lead a company based on 100% proven and certain input. YOU HAVE TO WORK WITH POSSIBILITIES. Nobody is saying it WILL happen, but it CAN happen and there are good reasons for presuming so. [editline]30th October 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Swilly;38247683]This isn't a debate or even a proper argument. This is argument fallacy after argument fallacy. At the end of the day the entire point of the App Store is supposed to help casual users avoid things like Malware and Spyware and all that other shit that constantly plague Windows Systems. LIKE THE FUCKING LINUX REPOSITORIES.[/QUOTE] At the end of the day the entire point of App Store is to help Microsoft promote itself (undeniably by perhaps making installation more comfortable for common users) BUT MAINLY TO MAKE MONEY ON EVERY SINGLE APP SOLD TO WORK ON THEIR OPERATING SYSTEM. Linux repositories are entirely optional and open. Theoretically I can even take the repository engine and implement it on my own linux distribution. Nobody will give a shit.

[QUOTE=danharibo;38247690][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft]I see what[/url] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Microsoft_competition_case]you did there[/url][/QUOTE] i stand corrected [editline]30th October 2012[/editline] then it becomes a question of "have they really learned their lesson?"

[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;38247670][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority]fair[/url][/quote] [quote] The strength of this authoritative argument depends upon two factors: [1][2] The authority is a legitimate expert on the subject.[/quote] I take Valve as legitimate expert on the field of game development and publishing, as well as Gabe Newell as somebody who had over decade of experience with Microsoft itself. Meanwhile you speak by authority of... uhmmm... yeah... [quote] [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem]enough[/url][/QUOTE] I already made like three whole posts, repeating the same generic thought over and over. It's pointless to address it generally yet AGAIN when clearly only some individuals fail to understand. [editline]30th October 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;38247749]i stand corrected [editline]30th October 2012[/editline] then it becomes a question of "have they really learned their lesson?"[/QUOTE] You would know your answer if you paid attention to what I told you about to be happening pretty much right now in IP telephony. [editline]30th October 2012[/editline] [sp]Nope.[/sp]