[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;51117790]I get what you're saying, but as far as I'm concerned, you're describing someone who wears all the cycling clothes, wears cycling glasses, goes to cycling events, watches cycling on the television and likes the idea of cycling, but doesn't ride a bike
I would be no more inclined to call that person a cyclist, than I would be to call someone who doesn't believe in the Christian God, a Christian.
You can say it's self-identification, which I'll accept, but self-identification is to concede that you're rendering the term outside of commonly accepted meaning[/QUOTE]
Maybe he's arguing in an obtuse way for atheist Christianity? Just like there are atheist Jews who still recognize certain Judaic teachings and observe Jewish festivities but reject the supernatural.
[QUOTE=da space core;51116824]A move to more secular ideals is always a good sign[/QUOTE]
Atheism is almost always more dogmatic than any religion can be, so agnosticism all the way.
[QUOTE=space1;51119745]Atheism is almost always more dogmatic than any religion can be, so agnosticism all the way.[/QUOTE]
That makes no sense. Atheism isn't dogmatic because it has no written rules. It's entirely personal, and therefore varies from person to person. Ditto with agnosticism.
And I'm personally agnostic btw
[QUOTE=space1;51119745]Atheism is almost always more dogmatic than any religion can be, so agnosticism all the way.[/QUOTE]
By itself, Atheism prescribes no dogma. So for example, members of Eastern Orthodox Clergy killed by Communists in USSR countries, have been killed by Soviet Regime, not Atheism.
[QUOTE=archangel125;51119753]That makes no sense. Atheism isn't dogmatic because it has no written rules. It's entirely personal, and therefore varies from person to person. Ditto with agnosticism.
And I'm personally agnostic btw[/QUOTE]
It's the fact that they absolutely believe in one thing as certain when they don't have all the information. That's the fundamental flaw with the thinking of those who are atheists.
Silly me thought that, from the title, this would be about pagan religion.
[QUOTE=abcpea;51119924]Silly me thought that, from the title, this would be about pagan religion.[/QUOTE]
If only we could be so lucky
[QUOTE=SleepyAl;51119520]I think religion in terms of personal belief, theism, and community building can be a good thing. Psychologically it can help people cope, and can form communities and build relationships. It's not for me, but I can see how it helps people.
"There are no atheists in foxholes," while a broad statement, is a good reflection of humanity's fear of death. When I was at hospice (visiting, not dying), a lot of the people there who are dying are very religious, and the nurses comfort the sick with religious sentiments. "God has a plan," "you're going to a better place," "you'll see your family and loved ones again," "eternal paradise, free from pain" are all beliefs that make dying easier to cope with, both for the sick and those who bear witness to the dying.
For an atheist, you get one life, then game over. There's no afterlife, no final judgement, just total nothingness. You cease to exist. That fear of death brings along regrets, regret over what has not been accomplished or experienced, or what has been left behind, things that need to be done, but are too late to do. Regret, despair, sadness; death is the strongest, most potent fear, and living without that fear is a much easier existence for people. Religion can help with that.
It's a terrible ordeal to overcome death and nothingness without taking cognitive shortcuts. As an atheist it has given me grief and depression over the years and the only way I can cope is to avoid thinking about it, because I can't just suddenly believe in something I don't think is true. Humans make meaning, we create reasons for why things are, we try to establish cause and effect, but when dealing with the inherently meaninglessness of life, without that safety net of an afterlife or loving god your life becomes so much more important, and regret becomes a stronger feeling. Life is short, any time you waste is time gone forever, and you don't want to die without experiencing everything you can.
So people over time becoming more secular is both a good and a bad thing. Good for the lack of reliance on organized religion to think for us, to tell us what's right and wrong, to force us to live a certain way, to divide us and enrage us, but also bad because it makes some people more isolated, lack purpose, and makes death a much more difficult situation to deal with. Ultimately this is just a change that is going to happen on a much larger scale as people become more educated, more exposed to other cultures via social media, college, etc., and start to question why they believe the things they do and how compatible those beliefs are with scientific truth.[/QUOTE]
i'm glad i am no longer an athiest, rather a true agnostic. from my view, we cannot even begin to know if such things as gods and an afterlife exists and to make a judgement either way is to make a judgement without evidence. i don't fear my inevitable death, only fear it happening earlier than i expect.
[QUOTE=da space core;51116824]A move to more secular ideals is always a good sign[/QUOTE]
Why?
[QUOTE=Xakoro;51116842]What about 1950s China?[/QUOTE]
Communism. It never works.
[QUOTE=space1;51119920]It's the fact that they absolutely believe in one thing as certain when they don't have all the information. That's the fundamental flaw with the thinking of those who are atheists.[/QUOTE]
But that's not what dogma refers to. That's simply the premise.
[editline]28th September 2016[/editline]
Besides which, I don't see anything wrong with refusing to believe something may exist until evidence supporting its existence has been found.
I was raised Christian, went to Catholic school, became an Atheist in high school. Currently agnostic, but I still follow christian traditions for traditions sake(holidays, etc). It's important not to judge people based on whether or not they're religious, but by how they treat others in public and private. Some of the smartest, most amazing people I've met have been hugely religious Christians, while the opposite can be said about some atheists I've met. Religious people can be smart and rational too. Swaying away form religion isn't as important as swaying away from using it to enforce bigoted beliefs.
[QUOTE=space1;51119920]It's the fact that they absolutely believe in one thing as certain when they don't have all the information. That's the fundamental flaw with the thinking of those who are atheists.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't make any sense. I can firmly not believe in anything that doesn't have any evidence to support it, why would religion be different?
[QUOTE=OvB;51120404]I was raised Christian, went to Catholic school, became an Atheist in high school. Currently agnostic, but I still follow christian traditions for traditions sake(holidays, etc). It's important not to judge people based on whether or not they're religious, but by how they treat others in public and private. Some of the smartest, most amazing people I've met have been hugely religious Christians, while the opposite can be said about some atheists I've met. Religious people can be smart and rational too. Swaying away form religion isn't as important as swaying away from using it to enforce bigoted beliefs.[/QUOTE]
Heh, same story as you, only I was born Roman Catholic.
I was raised agnostically and the first time a read the bible (or at least, the first couple of pages) I was in a fit of laughter.
And God saw that it was good.
[QUOTE=archangel125;51120333]But that's not what dogma refers to. That's simply the premise.
[editline]28th September 2016[/editline]
Besides which, I don't see anything wrong with refusing to believe something may exist until evidence supporting its existence has been found.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Yov0C5U.png[/IMG]
???
In what world do you live in that dogmatic means anything else?
[QUOTE=space1;51119920]It's the fact that they absolutely believe in one thing as certain when they don't have all the information. That's the fundamental flaw with the thinking of those who are atheists.[/QUOTE]
atheism is either disbelief or lack of belief
your point is fine with disbelief, but completely falls apart when it comes to lack of belief
believing that there definitely isn't a god makes you an atheist
not having a belief that there is a god makes you an atheist.
[QUOTE=space1;51119920]It's the fact that they absolutely believe in one thing as certain when they don't have all the information. That's the fundamental flaw with the thinking of those who are atheists.[/QUOTE]
This is a common misconception. Of course there are atheists who claim to know there is no god, as there are religious people who claim to know there is one. But those are a case on their own. Generally speaking, atheism is the rejection of the claim that a god exists. The possibilities are 1) god exists 2) god doesn't exist 3) we don't know. Atheists find themselves on the default "I don't know" position, and reject the claims of the existence of God. It's pretty simple but many people can't grasp this tiny concept by the looks of it, and it's frustrating.
Atheism and agnosticism aren't mutually exclusive. Atheism and Theism are claims about belief, while agnostic and gnostic are claims about knowledge. Gnostic being "I know and I'm certain" and agnostic the opposite. You can be an agnostic atheist or theist or vice versa.
This has to be repeated in every single discussion about religion. That's how widespread this twisted conception of these terms is.
[QUOTE=OvB;51120404]I was raised Christian, went to Catholic school, became an Atheist in high school. Currently agnostic, but I still follow christian traditions for traditions sake(holidays, etc). It's important not to judge people based on whether or not they're religious, but by how they treat others in public and private. Some of the smartest, most amazing people I've met have been hugely religious Christians, while the opposite can be said about some atheists I've met. Religious people can be smart and rational too. Swaying away form religion isn't as important as swaying away from using it to enforce bigoted beliefs.[/QUOTE]
Enforcing of the bigoted beliefs is very popular with religious people. The whole "gays don't deserve rights" and "women shouldn't be able to vote" both had religious proponents.
[QUOTE=Xakoro;51116842]What about 1950s China?[/QUOTE]
yeah just blame it on China being a secular socialist country and not Mao Zedong's incredible competence.
[QUOTE=Glamour;51116916]No? I'd like some more elaboration on this[/QUOTE]
Not [b]always[/b]. Again, see China, USSR...
[QUOTE=CruelAddict;51121591]Not [b]always[/b]. Again, see China, USSR...[/QUOTE]
they were essentially state religions, so sorry but not secular.
[QUOTE=CruelAddict;51121591]Not [b]always[/b]. Again, see China, USSR...[/QUOTE]
That was forced secularism rather than people just getting sick of religion
[QUOTE=CruelAddict;51121591]Not [b]always[/b]. Again, see China, USSR...[/QUOTE]
It's crudely true that these societies were not driven by religion.
But they were operated on very religious terms with regards to the suppression of free-thinking, scrutiny and skepticism. So i'd separate them personally from secularism, given that secularism is essentially about separating the lives of common people from an unassailable authority, in this case religious authority.
[QUOTE=OvB;51120404]I was raised Christian, went to Catholic school, became an Atheist in high school. Currently agnostic, but I still follow christian traditions for traditions sake(holidays, etc). It's important not to judge people based on whether or not they're religious, but by how they treat others in public and private. Some of the smartest, most amazing people I've met have been hugely religious Christians, while the opposite can be said about some atheists I've met. Religious people can be smart and rational too. Swaying away form religion isn't as important as swaying away from using it to enforce bigoted beliefs.[/QUOTE]
This needs to be said more. Religion can and has often be used to justify terrible things but having a faith or belief in god does not make you irrational or a horrible person. Some great scientists were and continue to have a faith or are agnostic, for example. As well as that, just because you're an atheist doesn't mean you can't have ridiculous, irrational and awful beliefs.
I wish more people realised both that faith and science are not necessarily in conflict and that we should to tolerate both religious and non-religious people. I say that as an agnostic who's Catholic parents allowed me to decide what I believed and what I thought was right.
I'm a weak atheist in the sense that I don't believe in a god rather than believing there isn't one, but I also believe that God isn't any different than any other unfalsifiable something anybody could conceivably believe in, and that faith in God is no more worthy of respect than faith in fairies.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;51121826]A lot, and I mean a LOT of faiths directly conflict science, with no way around it
Humans cannot part seas. They cannot go 40 days without eating, sleeping, or drinking. We do not "reincarnate" based on "karma." We do not have spirits that protect our family after death.[/QUOTE]
Most religion does conflict science, but religion is up for interpretation and cherry-picking, so while the beliefs may conflict with how nature works according to what science tells us, religion doesn't have to have to conflict with science in society.
[QUOTE=Paramud;51116990]In which case a move towards "secular ideals" (which don't exist) doesn't mean anything because people are equally as likely to come out of it with terrible ideals.[/QUOTE]
"we should make this thing illegal even in scenarios where it would save lives, and not up to personal decision, because god wills it"
literally happening right now in poland
i don't have a problem with people being religious but you have to admit it's like a gateway drug to absurdity. In the least case it takes advantage of people who had no access to good education, i.e. developing countries, tough come up or through bad parenting, and that often results in said absurdity
[QUOTE=SirJon;51121869]"we should make this thing illegal even in scenarios where it would save lives, and not up to personal decision, because god wills it"
literally happening right now in poland
i don't have a problem with people being religious but you have to admit it's like a gateway drug to absurdity[/QUOTE]
If someone is absurd and religious they would likely still be absurd without religion.
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