43% of US households to owe no federal income tax in 2013 - Polidicks

Skill and responsibility are what get higher pay, not physical difficulty for the simple fact that most anyone can do things that are physically difficult, but very little people can successfully do jobs that require high amounts of skill or have tons of responsibility.

[QUOTE=Kyle902;42061228]No it isn't. Are you saying people who have worked the lower parts of the job ladder should gradually get paid less as they advance?[/QUOTE] i never said that. i said that the people aren't paid for the amount of work they put in.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42061214]and these accountants and managers are still very very poor compared to the executives.[/QUOTE] You need to look at it in perspective I guess. CEOs and other high level executives have occupations which require high qualifications and decades of experience to do their job effectively, and their decisions can make or break the firm, and all of the employees of that firm. I do agree with you that it's a bit ridiculous to have executives earnings in the billions of dollars, but they are very important positions and it is not as if a CEO sets his or her own salary.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42061244]i never said that. i said that the people aren't paid for the amount of work they put in.[/QUOTE] CEO's don't magically get that position you know. They work to get to it. You are advocating lower wages for people who advance themselves.

[QUOTE=Antdawg;42061255]You need to look at it in perspective I guess. CEOs and other high level executives have occupations which require high qualifications and decades of experience to do their job effectively, and their decisions can make or break the firm, and all of the employees of that firm. I do agree with you that it's a bit ridiculous to have executives earnings in the billions of dollars, but they are very important positions and it is not as if a CEO sets his or her own salary.[/QUOTE] since it can make or break a firm, and people's jobs and livelihoods are at stake, maybe the ceo shouldn't be chosen and paid by investors. maybe a ceo should be chosen, and the wage set, by the workers in the firm.

[QUOTE=Falchion;42055556]at this point i think this is more about emotions and ideology than any logic.[/QUOTE] You just described the United States Congress and most of the people that elect it.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42061267]since it can make or break a firm, and people's jobs and livelihoods are at stake, maybe the ceo shouldn't be chosen and paid by investors. maybe a ceo should be chosen, and the wage set, by the workers in the firm.[/QUOTE] But the thing is not everyone is qualified to do what an executive can do. As I've said, high qualifications (usually post-graduate degrees) and decades of experience are needed to be able to manage the firm to ensure it meets its goals and do so in the most efficient and effective way possible. It is not like being a shift manager, it's managing an entire legal entity. To the workers at the bottom, they may not have a concept of who is more or less suitable at being the manager of the firm. Soldiers in the army don't decide who is there general, do they?

[QUOTE=Antdawg;42061307]But the thing is not everyone is qualified to do what an executive can do. As I've said, high qualifications (usually post-graduate degrees) and decades of experience are needed to be able to manage the firm to ensure it meets its goals and do so in the most efficient and effective way possible. It is not like being a shift manager, it's managing an entire legal entity. To the workers at the bottom, they may not have a concept of who is more or less suitable at being the manager of the firm. Soldiers in the army don't decide who is there general, do they?[/QUOTE] then why should the average person be allowed to vote for their representative?

All this talk about intellect vs strength and how only the smartest deserve to live a fair life. Maybe we should just euthanize anyone who dips under the poverty line so we can live in our perfect conservative utopia where everyone has a well paying job and a fair life.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42061316]then why should the average person be allowed to vote for their representative?[/QUOTE] Just think about it, you would probably be one of the first people to complain about the US congress and how it's completely ineffective. Not that I'm advocating authoritarianism, but democracy is not a perfect system. And besides, when we vote for government we do not vote for a single person to make the decision on policy. We vote for a representative who then votes on bills in government alongside other representatives. You could probably mention the President of the United States, but the President is not all-powerful like the European monarchs a millennia ago.

[QUOTE=Kyle902;42061257]CEO's don't magically get that position you know. They work to get to it. You are advocating lower wages for people who advance themselves.[/QUOTE] "should the head chef be paid over 1,000 times what the line cook is paid?" "Are you saying he should be paid less than the line cook?" "Um, no?" "You're saying that people at higher positions should be paid less." What is wrong with you?

The real problem is the distribution of wealth isn't even close to fair. People under the poverty line can barely afford scraps while the rich can afford to buy a small nation.

[QUOTE=Antdawg;42061340]Just think about it, you would probably be one of the first people to complain about the US congress and how it's completely ineffective. Not that I'm advocating authoritarianism, but democracy is not a perfect system. And besides, when we vote for government we do not vote for a single person to make the decision on policy. We vote for a representative who then votes on bills in government alongside other representatives. You could probably mention the President of the United States, but the President is not all-powerful like the European monarchs a millennia ago.[/QUOTE] so then we should model corporations like republics?

[QUOTE=Gatsby;42055624]I dont know that many homeless people with a laptop and internet connection.[/QUOTE] lots probably have a smartphone Seriously, if you're homeless, a smartphone is a super smart investment. If you can manage ~$40/month (likely hard for many people in that situation, admittedly) you get access to a phone number and email address, two things you basically need to get a job, and internet access, great for finding jobs also damn useful in an emergency, and you can charge it for free in libraries or coffee shops

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42061359]so then we should model corporations like republics?[/QUOTE] I wasn't really suggesting that. It would probably not end well, just think of how many people are dissatisfied with how Congress is doing right now. I think democracy could work in some circumstances in firms, it is a legitimate managerial theory after all. But when it comes to the people who have the decisions that can make or break the firm, I don't think it's best that this executive is voted for by the workers at the bottom. The Westminister system of electing a head of government (the prime minister is the leader of the party which holds power in the lower house of government, and is elected into that position by the other members of the party) would be a better system of electing executives for a firm, but I don't know how you would translate the Westminister system to apply for electing executives. But what I mean is, is that the prime minister is elected into that position not by the general populace who know nothing about politics, but rather by members of his or her party who have qualifications and experience in politics. I don't think that paragraph made sense haha I'm tired.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42061244]i never said that. i said that the people aren't paid for the amount of work they put in.[/QUOTE] Why do you think physically demanding labor is inherently worth more than it's currently paid? Is there some objective method of measuring the worth of labor that modern economics doesn't know about?

[QUOTE=sgman91;42061476]Why do you think physically demanding labor is inherently worth more than it's currently paid? Is there some objective method of measuring the worth of labor that modern economics doesn't know about?[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure that part of his overall argument is pointing out a hypocrisy in our society. We have this idea that hard work is what is needed to move up the social ladder, but that isn't really right. Opportunities is the only way you can move up in society (such as moving out of poverty), that usually includes having to do hard work, but hard work isn't the direct reason why someone moves up. We say that hard work is the most important thing, but we really don't value it as such.

My personal opinion on economics is that every denomination should be moving forward into better quality of life together. This means if one bracket is getting richer and richer as another bracket suffers, something has to be done about that. Improvements in technology will make quality of life automatically improve, and I don't believe that everyone should be paid the same, but the increasing wage gap and shrinking middle class is a real problem that needs to be fixed and screw anyone who says otherwise. I hate the word "entitled" but I think the one thing everyone is entitled to is not having their quality of life decline through no fault of their own. That includes the poor and the rich.

[QUOTE=Del91;42051003]I made less than $15,000 year before last and I got $30 from the IRS, last year I made $22,000 and I owed $500. The IRS can fuck themselves.[/QUOTE] Uh Are you doing your taxes right? I make about $15k a year (slightly less I think, closer to $12,000) and I get at least 500 back from my taxes. My co-workers, who work more hours than me and make more money, get around $3000 back from taxes with kids and stuff If you are getting only $30, you are probably doing it really, really wrong if you are under poverty line.

[QUOTE=KorJax;42065729]Uh Are you doing your taxes right? I make about $15k a year (slightly less I think, closer to $12,000) and I get at least 500 back from my taxes. My co-workers, who work more hours than me and make more money, get around $3000 back from taxes with kids and stuff If you are getting only $30, you are probably doing it really, really wrong if you are under poverty line.[/QUOTE] I made just over the amount to get the earned income credit. I really don't know what I'm doing wrong, as I don't have anything claimed. [editline]3rd September 2013[/editline] I think I've got myself claimed if anything.

[QUOTE=yawmwen;42054782]i'm saying that the rich exploit the people who actually produce useful things for other people. how many ceo's are on the factory floor?[/QUOTE] yes because every single rich person does that

[QUOTE=supersnail11;42071590]yes because every single rich person does that[/QUOTE] Yes, because by inheriting money an not doing anything with it except spending on yourself is producing useful things to society.

[QUOTE=matt000024;42071831]Yes, because by inheriting money an not doing anything with it except spending on yourself is producing useful things to society.[/QUOTE] "We also found, somewhat surprisingly, that inheritances and other wealth transfers tend to be equalizing in terms of the distribution of household wealth. Indeed, the addition of wealth transfers to other sources of household wealth has had a sizeable effect on reducing the inequality of wealth." - [url]http://www.bls.gov/ore/pdf/ec110030.pdf[/url] Most rich people don't inherit their wealth and poor/middle income people actually inherit a larger percentage of their wealth than rich people do. So, in effect, rich people create more of their own wealth than anyone else.

[QUOTE=sgman91;42071906]"We also found, somewhat surprisingly, that inheritances and other wealth transfers tend to be equalizing in terms of the distribution of household wealth. Indeed, the addition of wealth transfers to other sources of household wealth has had a sizeable effect on reducing the inequality of wealth." - [url]http://www.bls.gov/ore/pdf/ec110030.pdf[/url] Most rich people don't inherit their wealth and poor/middle income people actually inherit a larger percentage of their wealth than rich people do. So, in effect, rich people create more of their own wealth than anyone else.[/QUOTE] That is percentage wise though. When you're talking about huge gaps between the rich and the poor and how much people gain from inheritance it is more logical to discuss the actual amounts. It's not like they're all inheriting $100,000. For examples sake let's say inheriting a 1 million dollar sum would have 50% taken away, but a 1 hundred thousand one would be only 25%. The rich man gains 500,000 while the poorer man would only obtain 75,000 so because he wasn't born the son of a wealthier man.

[QUOTE=matt000024;42071964]That is percentage wise though. When you're talking about huge gaps between the rich and the poor and how much people gain from inheritance it is more logical to discuss the actual amounts. It's not like they're all inheriting $100,000. For examples sake let's say inheriting a 1 million dollar sum would have 50% taken away, but a 1 hundred thousand one would be only 25%. The rich man gains 500,000 while the poorer man would only obtain 75,000 so because he wasn't born the son of a wealthier man.[/QUOTE] The study found inheritances, across all of society, lead to a decrease in income inequality. The example you gave would lead to an exponentially increasing income inequality. So your example must not be true to reality.

[QUOTE=FinalHunter;42055102]Okay, then you can go to a technical school and get your Cisco and Microsoft certifications and make 60k+ a year doing networking and IT. There are plenty of opportunities out there. Tell me how I'm wrong.[/QUOTE] Yeah that worked out [I]great[/I] for me, I'm stuck in a dead end job frying donuts because said IT market is saturated and barely exists in this area and I have run out of options. Fuck, I'm not even getting any calls back, and when I do it is always a rejection. Hell when I call I get ran around anyways. It's like they don't want to hire anyone...

[quote]That's down from recent years because of an improving economy[/quote] really? when 67% of those households aren't even making enough to qualify for federal income tax you account that to an improved economy? maybe we [B]should[/B] look at our [B]27 YEAR OLD TAX CODE[/B] and start making some changes [editline]4th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=nagachief;42072191]Yeah that worked out [I]great[/I] for me, I'm stuck in a dead end job frying donuts because said IT market is saturated and barely exists in this area and I have run out of options. Fuck, I'm not even getting any calls back, and when I do it is always a rejection. Hell when I call I get ran around anyways. It's like they don't want to hire anyone...[/QUOTE] yep, my brother refused to even look at IT jobs while getting his degree and now he's 24, has an associates degree that took 5 and a half years to get and nobody will give him the time of day. this among other things is why i went into engineering school, at least they always need engineers to work the crack catalysts that make your gas.

Well. Maybe I won't go to school for an IT degree. :(

[QUOTE=FinalHunter;42054927]What do you do for a living? Are you working in some dead end retail job as a manager at Target or something? All these people who complain about not having money for rent and food and gas prices being too high are a bunch of lazy faggots looking for a handout. If you aren't working to make yourself more successful than why should my tax dollars go to you? You don't see pharmacists and nurses and engineers complaining about not having any money, do you? There are plenty of ways to put yourself through college and get a degree even if you don't have the money. My friend put himself through a private university on scholarships and loans and majored in Aerospace Engineering and paid it all off. I have friends going to college for free at Military Service Academics or on military scholarships. Bitching and moaning about how the economy is poor and the job market is shit is no excuse for not having enough money. It's your own fault if you didn't make wise decisions with your life and do what was necessary to provide for yourself. All these articles about taxes just give the self-righteous liberals working crap jobs yet another opportunity to whine about how they aren't treated fairly enough, and it's ridiculous. Do you think every single one of these CEO's just magically inherited millions of dollars? No, some of them worked shit jobs and saved up and founded their companies and grew them over decades. That's why they have millions of dollars, and they don't deserve to have it ripped away just because they actually did something intelligent. Our country isn't socialist, sorry.[/QUOTE] Yeah, I'm totally some lazy faggot looking for handouts. Not to mention I'm a full time student who works 40+ hours a week, being yelled at because some rich greedy fucktard spilled coffee in their computer and has decided it was MY fault that I can't fix his computer in 15 minutes and that it costs him money. It's even better when their fucking data cannot be salvaged from the HDDs, totally makes me a lazy faggot to have to deal with them then. Boy you sure showed me! I have the skills to be successful in this world, the problem IS the job market, if places were hiring more and people could afford to pay for services and products, I'd still be self-employed and not slaving away for jackshit an hour.

[QUOTE=draugur;42072946]Yeah, I'm totally some lazy faggot looking for handouts. Not to mention I'm a full time student who works 40+ hours a week, being yelled at because some rich greedy fucktard spilled coffee in their computer and has decided it was MY fault that I can't fix his computer in 15 minutes and that it costs him money. It's even better when their fucking data cannot be salvaged from the HDDs, totally makes me a lazy faggot to have to deal with them then. Boy you sure showed me![/QUOTE] The angst is overwhelming.