Luftwaffe Ace and Knight’s Cross Holder Walter Schuck passed away. - Polidicks

[QUOTE=TestECull;47463311]I have a feeling if the majority of the German army was, all at once, brought to the realization of what Hitler's government was doing they would have joined the allies and marched on the Reichstag themselves.[/QUOTE] people always seem to want to brush over this, [URL="en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht"]but the Wehrmacht still committed lots of atrocities[/URL]. they weren't inherently based around war crimes like some other groups but that doesn't necessarily mean they were all victimized professional soldiers who would have personally executed Hitler if they could have. [URL="en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht"]that the army was completely apolitical was largely an idea put forward by former Wehrmacht officers (who themselves were pretty pro-Nazi), and everything bad about them has been heaped onto the SS or deflected elsewhere.[/URL] i mean i'm not saying that they were necessarily ALL bad guys, but reality is not nearly so cleanly divided as "the SS was evil but the Wehrmacht was mostly okay." saying that they must have been decent because they were just soldiers on the opposite side seems to me a fake attempt at avoiding the black and white delusion of "the bad guy country" while not really avoiding it at all.

Indeed, the Wehrmacht had plenty of nazis in it. Especially on the Eastern Front, the Wehrmacht committed war crimes which were motivated by the ideology. The majority of Wehrmacht soldiers were nazis, just not extremely hardcore ones. I'm sure most of them changed their mind when shit started to crumble.

[QUOTE=Cone;47467780]people always seem to want to brush over this, [URL="en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht"]but the Wehrmacht still committed lots of atrocities[/URL]. they weren't inherently based around war crimes like some other groups but that doesn't necessarily mean they were all victimized professional soldiers who would have personally executed Hitler if they could have. [URL="en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht"]that the army was completely apolitical was largely an idea put forward by former Wehrmacht officers (who themselves were pretty pro-Nazi), and everything bad about them has been heaped onto the SS or deflected elsewhere.[/URL] i mean i'm not saying that they were necessarily ALL bad guys, but reality is not nearly so cleanly divided as "the SS was evil but the Wehrmacht was mostly okay." saying that they must have been decent because they were just soldiers on the opposite side seems to me a fake attempt at avoiding the black and white delusion of "the bad guy country" while not really avoiding it at all.[/QUOTE] Ofcourse it wasn't cleanly divided but still most of the guys in the wehrmacht were just ordinary men. Also don't forget the large amount of atrocities committed by the allies. Every country/army has rotten apples.

[QUOTE=kirederf7;47468071]Ofcourse it wasn't cleanly divided but still most of the guys in the wehrmacht were just ordinary men. Also don't forget the large amount of atrocities committed by the allies. Every country/army has rotten apples.[/QUOTE] No they weren't. The majority of them bought into the propaganda and were nazis, albeit not very hardcore ones. [editline]6th April 2015[/editline] The Luftwaffe was one of the more Nazi infested branches, by the way. Saying they were completely innocent, of all branches, is quite funny to me.

Remember that there was a media blackout in Germany regarding the camps. Most people apparently thought they were just being deported, and those around the camps thought they were just temporary work camps. Most people identifying as pro-Nazi (which would have been a majority chunk of the German civilian population as well) wanted them [I]out[/I], not [I]dead[/I]. Still wrong, but there's a huge gap in severity there. The German people were downtrodden, in a depression and easily heavily affected by anti-Jewish propaganda. The truth of the camps shattered morale on a national scale. To whitewash them is wrong and cheapens the suffering of victims of the regime, but to cast everyone as a Nazi hate machine is even more wrong. Propaganda coupled with denial are powerful tools. Recall how easy it was for the US propaganda machine to turn its own people against each other. People with German and Japanese roots were demonized and mistrusted, with the latter rounded up and moved into "internment camps" which were sometimes just as bad as German work camps. Imagine that climate with the dial turned up to 11 and you have post-WW1 Germany. It was extremely easy to rally the German people against their Jewish friends (many of whom at the time had valiantly served Germany during WW1), but that mentality started to crumble as Germany lost her footing in the war whereas it only intensified in the US as the Allies made their mark. Echoes of this WW2 era propaganda remain in US culture as we tend to associate Germany with Nazism before anything else and Japan with imperialism. The Luftwaffe was heavily composed of young members of the officer class, who were mostly educated under the Nazi banner. The Wehrmacht was heavily composed of draftees or dreamer-heroes (I'm off to defend my country!) who bought into the propaganda. The Kriegsmarine was heavily composed of members of the old Prussian/Imperial German officer class who were more loyal to Germany as a concept than to the Nazis as a political entity. All complicit, but not necessarily entirely guilty. Like I said, interesting topic of study. All of that said; in my opinion as a red-blooded American, Walter Schuck was as much a hero as our own. He fought valiantly for his country, exercised honor and restraint in open air combat, and whether he was a genuine USDA approved Nazi or not, deserves recognition for his achievements in a time and culture that few to none of us here could ever understand.

Exactly, I don't think there is more to be said.

[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;47468121]No they weren't. The majority of them were nazis, albeit not very hardcore ones. [editline]6th April 2015[/editline] The Luftwaffe was one of the more Nazi infested branches, by the way. Saying they were completely innocent, of all branches, is quite funny to me.[/QUOTE] I never said that?

[QUOTE=kirederf7;47468511]I never said that?[/QUOTE] Yea sorry, was referring to TestECulls first post in the thread, but forgot it wasn't you who said it.

I was sorry to hear this, but he was almost 95 years old so it wasn't really a surprise. In all my years of studying the breed, I have come to the conclusion that flying aces either have a very short life or a very long one. I met Walter Schuck several years ago at the Air & Space Museum at a gathering sponsored by Virginia Bader (he was there with Guenther Rall). He could only speak broken English, but I could understand what he said mostly. A very nice gentleman. What is that old saying? "Better to have a good enemy than a bad friend." Rest in peace, "good enemy" (and you never were my enemy, nor could you ever be--).

Rest in peace, my Grandfather knew this dude after the war, he was a Waffen-SS officer unfortunately for himself, I've heard good things about Walter.

[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;47468121]No they weren't. The majority of them bought into the propaganda and were nazis, albeit not very hardcore ones. [editline]6th April 2015[/editline] The Luftwaffe was one of the more Nazi infested branches, by the way. Saying they were completely innocent, of all branches, is quite funny to me.[/QUOTE] you can't refute his claim by literally going "nuh uh, they were SO nazis". Post some evidence to the contrary. Most everything you've said so far is bullshit.

[QUOTE=SeppLainer;47470885]you can't refute his claim by literally going "nuh uh, they were SO nazis". Post some evidence to the contrary. Most everything you've said so far is bullshit.[/QUOTE] How exactly is it bullshit? Do you have evidence to the contrary? I'm honestly not even sure what 'nazi' even means anymore. Does it mean someone who believes in Hitler and his actions (or at least, the actions the German public knew about at the time)? A member of the Nazi party? When I say the Wehrmacht soldiers were nazis, I mean the former. And you can't blame them for following Hitler, when you look at what the country went through in the interwar years. Look, all I'm saying is that people are waaayyy to apologetic of the Germans. No shit, they weren't all nazis but people have been taking this shit way too far recently. Most Germans did believe in Hitler, on the Eastern Front they did commit warcrimes that were motivated by the propaganda that they were being fed. And again, they can't really be blamed for buying into the propaganda, but saying they were a-political or that they all hated Hitler is just really fucking stupid.

[QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;47471293]How exactly is it bullshit? Do you have evidence to the contrary? [/quote] Read "[URL="http://www.amazon.com/Soldiers-German-Fighting-Killing-Dying/dp/0307948331"]Soldiers[/URL]" [QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;47471293] I'm honestly not even sure what 'nazi' even means anymore. Does it mean someone who believes in Hitler and his actions (or at least, the actions the German public knew about at the time)? A member of the Nazi party? When I say the Wehrmacht soldiers were nazis, I mean the former. And you can't blame them for following Hitler, when you look at what the country went through in the interwar years. [/quote] A Nazi would be a person in the National Socialist Party and they believe in it's ideologies. Obviously its a big blanketed term and massive generalization to call the entirety of the German Military "Nazi's". It's like calling the entirety of the American military "capitalists". During the war, you had men who were members of the Nazi party because of it's economic aspirations, not because they believed in cleaning the gene pool or getting rid of minorities. You also had men that were fervent anti-Nazi's but also hated the Jews just as much. The world isn't so static and black and white that you can just blanket term everyone under one name. Yes, obviously, there were Nazi's in the German military. To say that the majority of them were Nazi's wouldn't be entirely wrong, but them being Nazi's in the sense of pro-genocide isn't at all correct. [QUOTE=zupadupazupadude;47471293] Look, all I'm saying is that people are waaayyy to apologetic of the Germans. No shit, they weren't all nazis but people have been taking this shit way too far recently. Most Germans did believe in Hitler, on the Eastern Front they did commit warcrimes that were motivated by the propaganda that they were being fed. And again, they can't really be blamed for buying into the propaganda, but saying they were a-political or that they all hated Hitler is just really fucking stupid.[/QUOTE] Not really true. Up until the war on the Eastern Front intensified, WWII was rather "tame". Lots of prisoners were taken and cease fires were called to collect the dead and wounded on the battlefield. Medics weren't shot and prisoners weren't executed. When they invaded the Netherlands, captured officers were even allowed to keep their sidearms as a show of good faith. When they got on the eastern front, where there was no Geneva Convention, and the Russians were fighting a war of extermination, is when the war crimes really started. When the Germans would over run trenches and and the Russians play dead so they could shoot advancing Germans in the back, was when the "No prisoners" took effect. What people fail to realize is that war on the eastern front was all out total war, like no one had seen before. Both nations were fighting wars of extermination, and Russians were raping their people and burning their own villages for not resisting against German occupiers. Both countries were intent on destroying each other no matter the cost. I'm not justifying the atrocities committed on the eastern front, but to say they were committed because of some political allegiance? Thats complete and utter bullshit.

[QUOTE=SeppLainer;47471787]A Nazi would be a person in the National Socialist Party and they believe in it's ideologies. Obviously its a big blanketed term and massive generalization to call the entirety of the German Military "Nazi's". It's like calling the entirety of the American military "capitalists". During the war, you had men who were members of the Nazi party because of it's economic aspirations, not because they believed in cleaning the gene pool or getting rid of minorities. You also had men that were fervent anti-Nazi's but also hated the Jews just as much. The world isn't so static and black and white that you can just blanket term everyone under one name. Yes, obviously, there were Nazi's in the German military. To say that the majority of them were Nazi's wouldn't be entirely wrong, but them being Nazi's in the sense of pro-genocide isn't at all correct. [/QUOTE] lol, I'm not saying they're all members of the nazi party, did you read the middle part of my post where I explain what I meant when I said the majority of Wehrmacht soldiers were 'nazis'. Guess I should've just used pro-nazi instead. [QUOTE=SeppLainer;47471787] When they got on the eastern front, where there was no Geneva Convention, and the Russians were fighting a war of extermination, is when the war crimes really started. When the Germans would over run trenches and and the Russians play dead so they could shoot advancing Germans in the back, was when the "No prisoners" took effect. What people fail to realize is that war on the eastern front was all out total war, like no one had seen before. Both nations were fighting wars of extermination, and Russians were raping their people and burning their own villages for not resisting against German occupiers. Both countries were intent on destroying each other no matter the cost. I'm not justifying the atrocities committed on the eastern front, but to say they were committed because of some political allegiance? Thats complete and utter bullshit.[/QUOTE] I know what the Eastern Front was, I don't need a lecture on it. It seems you're only focusing on the part where the Soviets were fighting a war of extermination. The Germans also raped and burned down villages, and were also fighting a war of extermination. The Germans were always broadcasting propaganda over the radio's, through newspapers, etc, and it was really popular with the troops. The fact that the Eastern Front was so brutal reinforced that propaganda. Basically the same shit as when the Americans call the Japanese japs and pigs or something. The propaganda gets them to believe the Japanese are savages, and the nature of the combat reinforces it. You're right about the Western Front 1940-1945. It was pretty tame compared to the East Again, I'm saying the majority of the Wehrmacht was pro-nazi. And again, you can't blame them for it , looking at what Germany went through the last 3 decades, and the brutal nature of the combat on the Eastern Front. Most of them stopped believing in it when things started to crumble.

Since attending Virginia Bader's Battle of Britain symposium back in March, 1990, I have met a number of WWII aces from many countries, Great Britain, Germany (these are the ones everyone wants to meet) and even Russians in her Eastern Front symposium in 1992. I was honored to meet all of them, and grateful for the opportunity, as most of them are gone now with the passing of time. Do I care that the Germans were "Nazis" (and they weren't). Of course not--they were good men, brave beyond anything I can conceive, and never lost their human decency or their honor (despite all that crap you have seen, and continue to see, in Hollywood movies). Did it bother me that the Russian aces (or at least one of them) had been members of the Communist Party since 1930? Again, of course not. They were not fighting for Stalin, but to save Holy Mother Russia. I don't care about their politics and even if the German aces WERE "Nazis," I would still idolize them as brave men fighting for their country--

[QUOTE=Moustacheman;47463806]IIRC several German POWs volunteered to join the fight against Japan after hearing about the Holocaust.[/QUOTE] There was also the battle of Schloss Itter where some Wehrmacht soldiers fought along side Americans and some POWs against the Waffen SS.

[QUOTE=Viktoria;47481476]Since attending Virginia Bader's Battle of Britain symposium back in March, 1990, I have met a number of WWII aces from many countries, Great Britain, Germany (these are the ones everyone wants to meet) and even Russians in her Eastern Front symposium in 1992. I was honored to meet all of them, and grateful for the opportunity, as most of them are gone now with the passing of time. Do I care that the Germans were "Nazis" (and they weren't). Of course not--they were good men, brave beyond anything I can conceive, and never lost their human decency or their honor (despite all that crap you have seen, and continue to see, in Hollywood movies). Did it bother me that the Russian aces (or at least one of them) had been members of the Communist Party since 1930? Again, of course not. They were not fighting for Stalin, but to save Holy Mother Russia. I don't care about their politics and even if the German aces WERE "Nazis," I would still idolize them as brave men fighting for their country--[/QUOTE] the moral of the story is as long as you kill enough people it won't matter why [editline]9th April 2015[/editline] or, alternatively, join the military and get SICK killstreaks for bonus honor points

you are a real piece of work

[QUOTE=innerfire34;47489188]the moral of the story is as long as you kill enough people it won't matter why [editline]9th April 2015[/editline] or, alternatively, join the military and get SICK killstreaks for bonus honor points[/QUOTE] man you are a total asshole.