[QUOTE=TH89;19472161]I could be wrong here, but I was under the impression Hamas just fires rockets aimlessly over the wall.[/quote]
Oh, so they weren't aiming at anything? Oh, those silly Hamas and their silly games.
"Hey guys, I found a shit-ton of old Katyusha rockets, what should we do with them?"
"I know! Let's play a real bad-ass game of lawn-darts!"
Well technically, they were aiming at Israel.
[QUOTE=TH89;19472235]Well technically, they were aiming at Israel.[/QUOTE]
Which still equates to a bad-ass game of Katyusha lawn-darts.
[QUOTE=Wikipedia]Between 2005 and 2007, Palestinian groups in Gaza fired about 2,700 locally-made Qassam rockets into Israel, killing four Israeli civilians and injuring 75 others. During the same period, Israel fired more than 14,600 155mm artillery shells into the Gaza Strip, killing 59 Palestinians and injuring 270. The Palestinian fatalities were, according to Human Rights Watch, "primarily if not exclusively civilians."[/QUOTE]
Woah, ouch. Four dead Israeli civilians as opposed to 59?
[QUOTE=TH89;19471952]In what way? It sounds like you don't understand the analogy.[/QUOTE]
Uhh, let's look at the "analogy". The comparison of a baby kicking you in the shin (Israeli civilian deaths from indirect rocket fire) to kicking the baby in the face in retaliation (Military retaliation against Hamas).
You don't see the problem there?
[QUOTE=Jund;19472324]Woah, ouch. Four dead Israeli civilians as opposed to 59?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it's only four of their own dead. Who cares, they should just let it slide.
:downs:
It 's like trying to kill an elephant with a stick.
Breaking mah automerge
[QUOTE=professional;19472338]Uhh, let's look at the "analogy". The comparison of a baby kicking you in the shin (Israeli civilian deaths from indirect rocket fire) to kicking the baby in the face in retaliation (Military retaliation against Hamas).
You don't see the problem there?[/QUOTE]
Nope, all you've done is restate the analogy.
Again, it sounds like you don't understand it. The point of comparison is whether the response is proportional and militarily justified. He doesn't actually think Palestine is a baby.
[QUOTE=Jund;19472324]Woah, ouch. Four dead Israeli civilians as opposed to 59?[/QUOTE]
Hey, weren't you reading? They just wanted to play some lawn-darts and Israel was in the way.
The IDF had the advantage of [I]accurate [/I]artillery fire, and they told Hamas "We're not stopping until you quit your shit". It's pretty sad that it took 59 casualties for Hamas to stop.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;19472377]Hey, weren't you reading? They just wanted to play some lawn-darts and Israel was in the way.
The IDF had the advantage of [I]accurate [/I]artillery fire, and they told Hamas "We're not stopping until you quit your shit". It's pretty sad that it took 59 casualties for Hamas to stop.[/QUOTE]
It's pretty sad that you seem to think the IDF was intentionally killing civilians and don't see a problem with it.
[QUOTE=Crembo;19472042]Yeah, but Hamas doesn't even TRY to hit the IDF with their rockets. They shoot specifically at civilians. IDF bomb the places where it hurts the most to Hamas. The problem is that Gaza is so fucking overpopulated, it's impossible not to hit civilians. I bet if you fired 1 round there you'd hit 10 people until the bullet stops :|[/QUOTE]
That is absolutely retarded. Hamas' rockets barely pass the Israeli border.
The IDF pounded a UN hospital with white phosphorous because they thought it was a terrorist location.
Gaza is so fucking overpopulated because they can't leave.
And this pretty much proves you have no clue what you're talking about.
[QUOTE] I bet if you fired 1 round there you'd hit 10 people until the bullet stops [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;19472377]Hey, weren't you reading? They just wanted to play some lawn-darts and Israel was in the way.
The IDF had the advantage of [I]accurate [/I]artillery fire, and they told Hamas "We're not stopping until you quit your shit". It's pretty sad that it took 59 casualties for Hamas to stop.[/QUOTE]
Well then both sides were being childish. I mean, Israel used their [I]accurate[/I] artillery fire to [I]accurately[/I] kill civilians. Doesn't make them look much better.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;19472377]Hey, weren't you reading? They just wanted to play some lawn-darts and Israel was in the way.
The IDF had the advantage of [I]accurate [/I]artillery fire, and they told Hamas "We're not stopping until you quit your shit". It's pretty sad that it took 59 casualties for Hamas to stop.[/QUOTE]
uh, if some foreign aggressor trapped you in your house and the police weren't helping, I'm sure you'd be a little pissed.
[QUOTE=professional;19472338]
Yeah, it's only four of their own dead. Who cares, they should just let it slide.[/QUOTE]
So if someone punches your friend in the face, you punch their friend in the face? Killing civilians doesn't solve [b]anything[/b].
[QUOTE=TH89;19472401]It's pretty sad that you seem to think the IDF was intentionally killing civilians and don't see a problem with it.[/QUOTE]
Where did I say it was OK? I'm saying that comparing the numbers is stupid because the accuracies of either side are worlds apart, especially considering the rockets were home-made and just fired blindly into Israel in the hopes that they'd hit something. (which history shows that massed rocket batteries CAN inflict some major damage, but Hamas apparantley opted more for a few rockets here and there) It was a dick move by BOTH parties to fire into civilian areas, blindly or otherwise. (and I don't know if I'd call the Hamas rocket attacks "blindly fired", seeing as they pointed them in the right direction at least)
Also, on the one hand you act like it was "only 4" as if Hamas only killed 4 on purpose, and that the casualty difference is because of cruelty. It certainly is on BOTH counts, but the main difference is what they were lobbing at each-other.
This is what Hamas was firing:
[IMG]http://imgur.com/WRGuD.jpg[/IMG]
This is what Israel was firing:
[img]http://imgur.com/9jrFx.jpg[/img]
Hamas had the disadvantage of having to make their rockets from scratch while Israel had masses of artillery shells at the ready, and the trained crews necessary to use them properly. BUT, the REAL point of the issue is Hamas dragged their civilian population into another un-necessarily bloody skirmish by even trying something this stupid. This does NOT excuse Israel however, I'm just saying that the casualty differences shouldn't be THAT surprising.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;19472555]Where did I say it was OK? I'm saying that comparing the numbers is stupid because the accuracies of either side are worlds apart, especially considering the rockets were home-made and just fired blindly into Israel in the hopes that they'd hit something. (which history shows that massed rocket batteries CAN inflict some major damage, but Hamas apparantley opted more for a few rockets here and there) It was a dick move by BOTH parties to fire into civilian areas, blindly or otherwise. (and I don't know if I'd call the Hamas rocket attacks "blindly fired", seeing as they pointed them in the right direction at least)[/QUOTE]
There are no words
[editline]11:37PM[/editline]
It's okay for Israel to murder more civilians because they have better weapons? Are you even thinking?
[QUOTE=TH89;19472563]There are no words
[editline]11:37PM[/editline]
It's okay for Israel to murder more civilians because they have better weapons? Are you even thinking?[/QUOTE]
That's the thing, most people that support Israels actions don't think.
-snip I give up trying to post this with bloody noscipt-
[QUOTE=TH89;19472563]There are no words
[editline]11:37PM[/editline]
It's okay for Israel to murder more civilians because they have better weapons? Are you even thinking?[/QUOTE]
Where. The. Fuck. Did. I. Say. It. Was. Okay.
I clearly stated that firing into civilian populations was a dick-move [I][B]ON BOTH SIDES OF THE CONFLICT.[/B][/I] Just that the technological/training differences are what account for the huge difference in casualties, as well as the stubbornness of both sides.
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;19472788]Where. The. Fuck. Did. I. Say. It. Was. Okay.
I clearly stated that firing into civilian populations was a dick-move [I][B]ON BOTH SIDES OF THE CONFLICT.[/B][/I] Just that the technological/training differences are what account for the huge difference in casualties[/QUOTE]
Nobody's debating that. Everybody knows that. That's obvious and self-evident. Why would you even bring that up?
If Israel has such a badass military, then they should be at least a little bit more mature. While Hamas could have been specifically aiming at Israeli civilians, Israel (with it's badass modern weapons and shit) was deliberately aiming at civilians.
"Let's end this killing of innocent civilians by killing more innocent civilians!" :downs:
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;19472555]
This is what Hamas was firing:
[IMG]http://imgur.com/WRGuD.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
I would have mistaken them for fireworks if I didn't know better.
[QUOTE=TH89;19472839]Nobody's debating that. Everybody knows that. That's obvious and self-evident. Why would you even bring that up?[/QUOTE]
Apparantley you and I are debating it because you keep taking what I'm saying out of context. I'm just trying to make sure my opinion isn't misconstrued as "WHOO GO JEWS KILL THEM SAND PEOPLE!"
[QUOTE=TH89;19472161]I could be wrong here, but I was under the impression Hamas just fires rockets aimlessly over the wall.[/QUOTE]
I concur. They rarely hit anything at all. I don't think anything they fire have a guidance system or something like that. Unlike the Israelis. Yet they continue to hit buildings like, UN-run schools. With white phosphor no less.
[QUOTE=Taishu;19472924]I concur. They rarely hit anything at all. I don't think anything they fire have a guidance system or something like that. Unlike the Israelis. Yet they continue to hit buildings like, UN-run schools. With white phosphor no less.[/QUOTE]
Cause Allah guides those rockets to kill the infidels. :smile:
[QUOTE=Zero-Point;19472881]Apparantley you and I are debating it because you keep taking what I'm saying out of context. I'm just trying to make sure my opinion isn't misconstrued as "WHOO GO JEWS KILL THEM SAND PEOPLE!"[/QUOTE]
I think what you don't realize is that the reasoning of what you've been asserting DOES lead to the conclusion that killing a civilian with a more accurate, advanced weapon is MORE acceptable, if not entirely acceptable (I'll grant you that distinction).
After all, what you've been saying as far as I can see is that, while both sides are behaving unacceptably, killing 59 people isn't MORE unacceptable than killing 6, because Israel has better guns. It follows from this that, since killing 59 people with artillery is equally as unethical as killing 6 people with rockets, and killing 6 people with artillery is less unethical than killing 59 people with artillery, killing 6 people with artillery is less unethical than killing 6 people with rockets.
Either you actually believe that, which seems unlikely, or you haven't thought it through.
[QUOTE=TH89;19472999]I think what you don't realize is that the reasoning of what you've been asserting DOES lead to the conclusion that killing a civilian with a more accurate, advanced weapon is MORE acceptable, if not entirely acceptable (I'll grant you that distinction).[/quote]
I never said it was "more acceptable", I said it wasn't surprising.
[quote]After all, what you've been saying as far as I can see is that, while both sides are behaving unacceptably, killing 59 people isn't MORE unacceptable than killing 6, because Israel has better guns. It follows from this that, since killing 59 people with artillery is equally as unethical as killing 6 people with rockets, and killing 6 people with artillery is less unethical than killing 59 people with artillery, killing 6 people with artillery is less unethical than killing 6 people with rockets.
Either you actually believe that, which seems unlikely, or you haven't thought it through.[/QUOTE]
The whole point I'm trying to make here (apparantley I forgot to spell this part out, my bad) is that while Hamas "only" killed 4 people (they did say it was 4 earlier in the thread I believe, but it doesn't matter how many they "only" killed) is that Hamas clearly had intentions to kill alot more. I mean, why else would they fire THAT many rockets? Shits and giggles? The fact that they "only" killed 4 people is because they had shitty rockets, if they had their way each rocket would've killed at least 1 person. Otherwise why would they even FIRE them? Is it really relevant as to why Israel and Palestine hate each other's guts? Not really, all I'm saying is that it's not surprising.
[QUOTE=Jund;19472543]So if someone punches your friend in the face, you punch their friend in the face? Killing civilians doesn't solve [b]anything[/b].[/QUOTE]
This is just as bad as the stupid baby analogy. I never said it's the solution. What I was trying to point out is how that stupid analogy suggests that Hamas are innocent.
[QUOTE=Taishu;19472924]I concur. They rarely hit anything at all. I don't think anything they fire have a guidance system or something like that..[/QUOTE]
So by that line of thinking, the action of actively [B]trying[/B] to kill civilians is somehow less worse because they didn't succeed? -.-
[QUOTE=professional;19473428]This is just as bad as the stupid baby analogy. I never said it's the solution. What I was trying to point out is how that stupid analogy suggests that Hamas are innocent.[/QUOTE]
Hamas are not innocent, but the Israeli military is killing lots and lots of innocent Palestinian civilians in the process of trying to root Hamas out. Far more innocent civilians than Hamas ever killed.
[QUOTE=professional;19473428]This is just as bad as the stupid baby analogy. I never said it's the solution. What I was trying to point out is how that stupid analogy suggests that Hamas are innocent.[/QUOTE]
I never said that the Hamas are innocent. The facepunchers, (:razz:) the Hamas and the Israeli military are both guilty of hurting innocent people. Please, learn how analogies work.
[editline]11:31PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=professional;19473428]So by that line of thinking, the action of actively [B]trying[/B] to kill civilians is somehow less worse because they didn't succeed? -.-[/QUOTE]
You are overlooking the reason as to why they are launching rockets. They aren't savages bent on killing as many Israelis as possible for the fun of it. This kind of black and white shit is the reason why so many people are uneducated as to [b]why[/b] terrorists do what they do. No, I'm not saying what they're doing is right, but it's not just good guys and bad guys.
[QUOTE=Jund;19473506]I never said that the Hamas are innocent. The facepunchers, (:razz:) the Hamas and the Israeli military are both guilty of hurting innocent people. Please, learn how an analogy works.[/QUOTE]
[i]a similarity between like features of two things, on which a comparison may be based: the analogy between the heart and a pump.[/i]
[i] Logic. a form of reasoning in which one thing is inferred to be similar to another thing in a certain respect, on the basis of the known similarity between the things in other respects.[/i]
I know how an analogy works. You on the other hand, clearly don't. You used an analogy of the deaths of 4 civilians as a baby kicking someone in the shin, compared to a Military retaliation to someone retaliating by kicking the baby in the face. It's a shit analogy. Stop.
[QUOTE=Jund;19473506]
You are overlooking the reason as to why they are launching rockets. They aren't savages bent on killing as many Israelis as possible for the fun of it. This kind of black and white shit is the reason why so many people are uneducated as to [b]why[/b] terrorists do what they do. No, I'm not saying what they're doing is right, but it's not just good guys and bad guys.[/QUOTE]
Just like the Al Qaeda are Hero crusaders right? It couldn't possibly be that their mission is to eradicate western culture because they hate it, no. Just like Hamas doesn't want to kill Israelis because of hatred.
Israelis kill civilians (from what I often hear) through poorly spotted/coordinated airstrikes and artillery fire.
Hamas and Hezbollah get civilians killed by using them as a cover during firefights.
The claim that the Israelis are massacring Palestinians in the West Bank has been hugely distorted by dumb sources and the Media just often feeds off on that.
EDIT:
And if the fucking Middle-Eastern states are so pissed off about the fact that Israel is pushing out Palestinians off of land and homes why can't they just offer them home and shelter in their own states instead of starting wars or just bad-mouthing the general population of Israelis.
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