• France's 75% tax rate approved by top court after revisions
    513 replies, posted
[QUOTE=OogalaBoogal;43360764]Not getting doxxed today thank you very much. My government does so so much for small business, from amazing grants to tax breaks. It wouldn't feel fair not to give back what I've taken.[/QUOTE] Which Province you in?
[QUOTE=kuydna;43360671]Are you serious!? What if your income is 2m?[/QUOTE] If you're earning 2m you're likely already paying some dude to work out how to get that 2m to your pocket anyway. So you're still likely going to earn a majority of that 2m.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;43360771]Oh boy, here's the assumption train again! You just can't stop yourself can you?[/QUOTE] You implied I was into xenophobia despite both my parents being foreign, you called me a total dunce, you assumed I've had no hardships in my life, you are dismissive and insulting on other threads too. You look pretty much like a troll from here. [QUOTE]Right, so loans that are going to cut in to my finances hardcore for a few years of my life (I'm prepared for it to be honest), and basically hang up my goals until I either get a high enough salary to pay it off quickly or live like I am currently to make up for it (more than willing to do this to be honest). Someone is working a 40+ hour week, their time left is spent cooking, unwinding a bit after work, looking after their property, etc. Where do they get the time to spend in courses? If they are living close to the poverty line, where do they get the money for courses? To be honest, quite a few of the unis here are so shit tier it makes the US high school system look competitive. But the fact you got away with that really says a ton about the pure quality of the uni I have to say. (If it's not much to ask, what uni was it?) We do get told by our careers advisers on a regular basis that a lot of students fuck this stuff up. They also never seem to specify the courses annoyingly. Just seems to come with the territory with "got mine fuck off poors lmao" types. Plus with the constant use of "libtard" it's safe to say you're biased as fuck to the right, which is inherently racist in almost every country.[/QUOTE] TL;DR [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Meme Reply" - Megafan))[/highlight]
I'm not actually advocating a 75% tax rate. Even I think that's just a tad too high, but higher taxes on richer people is a totally reasonable thing for a government to implement. 75% on earnings >1m is still totally workable for the super-rich minority it will actually affect. They won't have to change their lifestyle much, or replan their life goals in the slightest. They might just have to wait an extra year to have that money instead (kinda like how poorer people have to wait a few years before they get a nice holiday really).
[QUOTE=chunkymonkey;43360783]Which Province you in?[/QUOTE] Nova Scotia. We're finally producing some world class startups here, so much so that talent poaching is starting to become a real issue.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43360824]TL;DR[/QUOTE] Fine. I'm calling this as you conceding though. Pretty pitiful attempt to prove me wrong. I hope you're proud and your parents equally as proud.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;43360798]If you're earning 2m you're likely already paying some dude to work out how to get that 2m to your pocket anyway. So you're still likely going to earn a majority of that 2m.[/QUOTE] 750,000 on the 2nd million plus at least hundreds of K on the first! [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=hexpunK;43360842]Fine. I'm calling this as you conceding though. Pretty pitiful attempt to prove me wrong. I hope you're proud and your parents equally as proud.[/QUOTE] Call it as me being unwilling to be trolled, have plenty of experience of it.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43360863]750,000 on the 2nd million plus at least hundreds of K on the first![/QUOTE] BOOTSTRAPS BOOTSTRAPS BOOTSTRAPS god damn reading this debate has been hilarious.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;43360829]I'm not actually advocating a 75% tax rate. Even I think that's just a tad too high, but higher taxes on richer people is a totally reasonable thing for a government to implement. 75% on earnings >1m is still totally workable for the super-rich minority it will actually affect. They won't have to change their lifestyle much, or replan their life goals in the slightest. They might just have to wait an extra year to have that money instead (kinda like how poorer people have to wait a few years before they get a nice holiday really).[/QUOTE] If you'd bothered to read the thread you would have seen that I never once advocated zero taxes for the rich, just that 75% is completely insane and unworkable, even if it starts after the first million.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;43356616]Only because people seem to believe the same tripe you seem to believe The people in the UK seem to always want better services but don't want to pay for them because they're stupid.[/QUOTE] Only in the US it makes sense. If I was rich i wouldn't want half of every dollar I give to the government to be spent on endless wars.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43360896]If you'd bothered to read the thread you would have seen that I never once advocated zero taxes for the rich, musty that 75% is completely insane and unworkable, even if it starts after the first million.[/QUOTE] 75% is still totally workable, insane? Just a bit. But workable. Especially considering it starts after the first 1m, that's the big game changer, that's where your income becomes bordering excessive. My (correct I think?) spreadsheet gave me some idea of the kind of income you expect to see, and it's still reasonable. You [B]need[/B] to remember that money isn't going into a void. It's getting put into the country, paying the guys who run it, keeping the roads smooth so your ground hugging sports car doesn't get totalled at the first pot hole, paying for your emergency medical care when your insurer brushes you off, ensuring your water is clean, your food is safe, and so much more. You have enough money for luxuries after that still. Luxurious luxuries at that. You also need to stop calling those who oppose you trolls, it makes you look like a massive tool. Also rating my posts dumb isn't proving a point other than you're acting like a petty manchild about this whole thing.
[QUOTE=OogalaBoogal;43360764]Not getting doxxed today thank you very much. My government does so so much for small business, from amazing grants to tax breaks. It wouldn't feel fair not to give back what I've taken.[/QUOTE] What business are you in? Any website? [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=hexpunK;43360962]75% is still totally workable, insane? Just a bit. But workable. [/QUOTE] It is not workable because- * People will not pay it. They will do everything they can to avoid it. If the taxman is being ripped off to the tune of £20 billion+ per year now what do you think will happen at 75% You might be willing to pay at that rate if you were rich, and that is very noble/masochistic, (delete as appropriate) of you, but very few others would. Also there are alternatives, doesn't it make sense to make sure the current funds the government has are spent as efficiently as possible? They will spend £720 billion this year. Almost £2 billion each and every fucking day. That is roughly half the entire economy btw! Has anyone even costed this? How much money would that extra tax raise even assuming everyone went along with it? I bet it wouldn't even cover the deficit let alone usher in a new age where the streets where literally paved with fucking gold. [QUOTE]Especially considering it starts after the first 1m, that's the big game changer, that's where your income becomes bordering excessive. [/QUOTE] Excessive in your opinion. You can't even buy a superyacht with that kinda money :( [QUOTE]My (correct I think?) spreadsheet gave me some idea of the kind of income you expect to see, and it's still reasonable. You [B]need[/B] to remember that money isn't going into a void. It's getting put into the country, paying the guys who run it, keeping the roads smooth so your ground hugging sports car doesn't get totalled at the first pot hole, paying for your emergency medical care when your insurer brushes you off, ensuring your water is clean, your food is safe, and so much more. You have enough money for luxuries after that still. Luxurious luxuries at that.[/QUOTE] A lot of the existing resources are mismanged, why give them anymore until they get their acts together? [QUOTE]You also need to stop calling those who oppose you trolls, it makes you look like a massive tool.[/QUOTE] Only you and only because that's how you were acting. Stop it and there won't be a need to call you it. [QUOTE]Also rating my posts dumb isn't proving a point other than you're acting like a petty manchild about this whole thing.[/QUOTE] LOL how unbelieably arrogant are you. Is it possible that the whole world doesn't agree with everything you think? That you might sometimes be wrong? You need to get over yourself.
[QUOTE=dark soul;43360916]Only in the US it makes sense. If I was rich i wouldn't want half of every dollar I give to the government to be spent on endless wars.[/QUOTE] What about the roads, police, fire service and just about everything else the state pays for.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;43360962]Right, so loans that are going to cut in to my finances hardcore for a few years of my life (I'm prepared for it to be honest), and basically hang up my goals until I either get a high enough salary to pay it off quickly or live like I am currently to make up for it (more than willing to do this to be honest).[/QUOTE] University education is an investment in yourself - it's supposed to make you more employable and to increase your earning power over your lifetime. And if you don't have to pay for it out of your own pocket why would you take it as seriously as someone who does? [QUOTE]Someone is working a 40+ hour week, their time left is spent cooking, unwinding a bit after work, looking after their property, etc. Where do they get the time to spend in courses? If they are living close to the poverty line, where do they get the money for courses?[/QUOTE] 168 hours per week. Borrow it? Take a part-time job? [QUOTE]To be honest, quite a few of the unis here are so shit tier it makes the US high school system look competitive. But the fact you got away with that really says a ton about the pure quality of the uni I have to say. (If it's not much to ask, what uni was it?)[/QUOTE] Liverpool JMU. You? [QUOTE]We do get told by our careers advisers on a regular basis that a lot of students fuck this stuff up. They also never seem to specify the courses annoyingly. [/QUOTE] ? [QUOTE]Just seems to come with the territory with "got mine fuck off poors lmao" types. Plus with the constant use of "libtard" it's safe to say you're biased as fuck to the right, which is inherently racist in almost every country.[/QUOTE] I am biased towards realism and logic. [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=carcarcargo;43361155]What about the roads, police, fire service and just about everything else the state pays for.[/QUOTE] How about toll roads instead? Just a thought.... Police and fire aren't that expensive in the overall scheme of things. Here's a breakdown of the 2013 budget for UK: [IMG]http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/3/20/1363800264587/Budget-spending-and-tax-r-001.jpg[/IMG] Can the people who've rated me so many dumbs honestly say that is being spent at anything like 100% efficiency, in all the right places? No? Then why do they deserve even more money, which they won't even get due to "tax avoision". [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=OogalaBoogal;43360764]Not getting doxxed today thank you very much. [/QUOTE] How convenient. [QUOTE]My government does so so much for small business, from amazing grants to tax breaks. It wouldn't feel fair not to give back what I've taken.[/QUOTE] Wait, aren't tax breaks evil?
[QUOTE=kuydna;43360980]It is not workable because- * People will not pay it. They will do everything they can to avoid it. If the taxman is being ripped off to the tune of £20 billion+ per year now what do you think will happen at 75% You might be willing to pay at that rate if you were rich, and that is very noble/masochistic, (delete as appropriate) of you, but very few others would.[/quote] So, awful human beings then? Putting self interest above keeping others alive when you are already doing so damn well for yourself is a very selfish action. You don't have to forgo your entire fortune, just pay your damn taxes as a way of reimbursing the society that got you where you were. [B][/B]Also there are alternatives, doesn't it make sense to make sure the current funds the government has are spent as efficiently as possible? They will spend £720 billion this year. Almost £2 billion each and every fucking day. That is roughly half the entire economy btw![/quote] Why no do both? It's not a one or the other choice. With more money they might actually hire people to sort this mess out. [QUOTE=kuydna;43360980]Has anyone even costed this? How much money would that extra tax raise even assuming everyone went along with it? I bet it wouldn't even cover the deficit let alone usher in a new age where the streets where literally paved with fucking gold.[/quote] You very rarely actually leave a deficit. They aren't 100% bad things, only when they spiral out of control like they have currently. Very few countries historically stay in a surplus for long. There's no point to them, the government can't do anything with the excess money but use it in budgets for next fiscal year probably falling into debt again. [QUOTE=kuydna;43360980]Excessive in your opinion. You can't even buy a superyacht with that kinda money :([/quote] A true travesty :v: [QUOTE=kuydna;43360980]Only you and only because that's how you were acting. Stop it and there won't be a need to call you it.[/quote] How was I acting again? Oh yeah, actually putting effort in to my point with the occasional "lmao" when you stepped over the line. [QUOTE=kuydna;43360980]LOL how unbelieably arrogant are you. Is it possible that the whole world doesn't agree with everything you think? That you might sometimes be wrong? You need to get over yourself.[/QUOTE] That's not why the dumb ratings are a problem. The problem is you using them at all in a debate. You should be proving me wrong, not clicking silly 16x16 icons to try and discredit me. Put the effort in, don't opt for silly forum features as a way to prove a point. [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=kuydna;43361170]Liverpool JMU. You?[/QUOTE] UEA. Not the best place in the world for Computing Science, but hey, it's been pretty good so far.
[QUOTE=Sword and Paint;43354538]75% of a million.. still alot.. but kinda takes the point of earning all that money away..[/QUOTE] It's not 75% of a million. It's 75% of any income ABOVE a million. you still get to keep a million every year, plus a good portion of anything above it. You people should probably learn to read before giving your opinion like that.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43361170]I am biased towards realism and logic.[/QUOTE] This is a cop-out. I am also biased towards realism and logic. I can justify this in that I am aware of the real problems low income families face, and think it should be dealt with by those without these problems adding a fraction of their income to a pot to pay for things these families need to thrive. It's only logical that those who have the means to provide actually provide rather than horde and act selfishly. [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=kuydna;43361170]How about toll roads instead? Just a thought....[/QUOTE] Toll roads? And you say you're a realistic and think logically? Toll roads are a fucking joke. Yeah, let's restrict the ability of people to move around the country of their own will based on if they happen to have money at the time. [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] It's been fun, but I should probably stop with this while I can :v: I've been procrastinating from my project work with this debate for far too long now.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;43361356]It's not 75% of a million. It's 75% of any income ABOVE a million. you still get to keep a million every year, plus a good portion of anything above it. You people should probably learn to read before giving your opinion like that.[/QUOTE] How much is the tax on the first million?
[QUOTE=kuydna;43361427]How much is the tax on the first million?[/QUOTE] Probably about 50 - 40%
[QUOTE=hexpunK;43361318]So, awful human beings then? Putting self interest above keeping others alive when you are already doing so damn well for yourself is a very selfish action. You don't have to forgo your entire fortune, just pay your damn taxes as a way of reimbursing the society that got you where you were. [/QUOTE] How much have you given to charity lately? Anything? You're not rich? No, but you are still better off than many others, how selfish of you not to give all the time.... [QUOTE] Why no do both? It's not a one or the other choice. With more money they might actually hire people to sort this mess out. [/QUOTE] Thought they were doing that already. [QUOTE]You very rarely actually leave a deficit. [/QUOTE] I mean the current budget deficit of about £90 billion a year. [QUOTE]They aren't 100% bad things, only when they spiral out of control like they have currently. Very few countries historically stay in a surplus for long. There's no point to them, the government can't do anything with the excess money but use it in budgets for next fiscal year probably falling into debt again.[/QUOTE] Yeah, it'll reduce the deficit a bit, but by how much? People seem to think you tax a few rich people, or another popular one is, "tax the bankers", like they have trillions of pounds sitting there waiting to be raided and it'll solve all our problems overnight. [QUOTE] A true travesty :v: [/QUOTE] ? [QUOTE] How was I acting again? Oh yeah, actually putting effort in to my point with the occasional "lmao" when you stepped over the line. [/QUOTE] It was you who started with the offensive comments, "total dunce", remember? Is that an intelligent way to conduct a debate? [QUOTE] That's not why the dumb ratings are a problem. The problem is you using them at all in a debate. You should be proving me wrong, not clicking silly 16x16 icons to try and discredit me. Put the effort in, don't opt for silly forum features as a way to prove a point. [/QUOTE] Does that apply to everyone who rated me and others dumb, or just your side? [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE] UEA. Not the best place in the world for Computing Science, but hey, it's been pretty good so far.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=kuydna;43361522]Does that apply to everyone who rated me and others dumb, or just your side?[/QUOTE] Everyone involved. The guys who just float through the thread and never reply can do their own thing. I'm not expecting much off them. [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] As I currently have zero income outside of the loan that just about covers my living expenses, donating money to charity is totally outside of my reach. Could probably donate blood or some shit, idk.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;43361361]This is a cop-out. [QUOTE]I am also biased towards realism and logic. I can justify this in that I am aware of the real problems low income families face, and think it should be dealt with by those without these problems adding a fraction of their income to a pot to pay for things these families need to thrive.[/QUOTE] But what if they won't? What if they're not feeling so altruistic? [QUOTE]It's only logical that those who have the means to provide actually provide rather than horde and act selfishly.[/QUOTE] Why stop at 75% why not 99%? [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE]Toll roads? And you say you're a realistic and think logically? Toll roads are a fucking joke. Yeah, let's restrict the ability of people to move around the country of their own will based on if they happen to have money at the time.[/QUOTE] Apart from them leading to a higher quality of road in many cases. [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE]It's been fun, but I should probably stop with this while I can :v: I've been procrastinating from my project work with this debate for far too long now.[/QUOTE] Thought your course was keeping you occupied 24/7....
[QUOTE=kuydna;43360671]The Laffer Curve. As already stated. They will do everything they can to avoid paying 75% on anything, even on the 100th million. It's totally impractical.[/QUOTE] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laffer_curve[/url] [quote]The Laffer curve is typically represented as a graph which starts at 0% tax with zero revenue, rises to a maximum rate of revenue at an intermediate rate of taxation, and then falls again to zero revenue at a 100% tax rate. [B]The actual existence and shape of the curve is uncertain and disputed.[/B][1][/quote]
[QUOTE=hexpunK;43361555]Everyone involved. The guys who just float through the thread and never reply can do their own thing. I'm not expecting much off them. [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] As I currently have zero income outside of the loan that just about covers my living expenses, donating money to charity is totally outside of my reach. Could probably donate blood or some shit, idk.[/QUOTE] There's probably a limit to the alchohol content they can accept :) *jk*
[QUOTE=kuydna;43361568]Thought your course was keeping you occupied 24/7....[/QUOTE] This is hardly a point against me. Brothers got to take a break at some point. I made the mistake of burning out in my first year, not doing it again. If they aren't feeling altruistic, the law deals with them. If they flee, fuck, international law could be amended to deal with them. As for not stopping at 75%, I've already said 75% is still pretty insane. Rich people still need money to invest and shit, I get that. That's why 99% tax rates would be pretty fucking mental to say the least (though the US did have a 94% tax rate in the past and big business didn't flee in massive numbers then it seems). [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=kuydna;43361631]There's probably a limit to the alchohol content they can accept :) *jk*[/QUOTE] Student lifestyle gives you flammable blood.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43361427]How much is the tax on the first million?[/QUOTE] The Income tax works like this, as far as I remember : below 6,000€ = 0% 6,000 to 12,000 = 6% 12,000 to 26,000 = 15% 26,000 to 70,000 = 30% 70,000 to 150,000 = 40% 150,000 and above = 45% That is counting salary, pensions, any real estate income, etc.
[QUOTE=ilikecorn;43346633]Going to play devils advocate here: that while the work isnt "hard" physically, it certainly requires skills and talent that the vast majority of people simply don't have, nor do they want to take the time to learn.[/QUOTE] I'm an electronic engineer. I studied in a vocational high school specializing in technology for 6 years, completed my bachelor's and am working for my master's degree. In total, I will have spent almost 15 years of my life studying this subject. Do you think a CEO that earns a 100 times as much as me has 100 times the talent or skill?
[QUOTE=Stopper;43361687]I'm an electronic engineer. I studied in a vocational high school specializing in technology for 6 years, completed my bachelor's and am working for my master's degree. In total, I will have spent almost 15 years of my life studying this subject. Do you think a CEO that earns a 100 times as much as me has 100 times the talent or skill?[/QUOTE] Not necessarily 100 times the talent or skill, as much as the ability to make the company 100 times as much money. You can dig a hole and refill it over and over, and while it may have been hard work, and you could have refilled the hole in a beautifully efficient way that required 40 years of training, you didn't actually produce anything of value, so you would be worth $0. There's a lot going on in this thread about how rich people get rich by exploiting society. First off, if there's a government policy that gives them an unfair advantage, then that isn't true capitalism. Proper capitalism is more of an "every man for himself" ideology, there's no policies in place to make the playing field artificially level, but also not artificially uneven. Secondly, they don't need to give back to society, there's no debt they owe. To get rich, you have to do something that can either make someone money, or make something that they feel is worth more to them than their own money. So, you get your profit off of that, the other person is now better off than they were without your service, and everyone is happy. If you have an apple, and your friend has an orange, and both of you value the other's product, then you trade them. If you turn out to know a lot of people who think an apple is worth more than an orange, then you can start pulling in the massive stashes of oranges. Is it fair for them to come breaking down your doors and taking them back from you, demanding that you need to give them what you owed them? Also, if someone who's filthy rich invests in 1,000 golden toilets, then guess what, the market for golden toilets goes up, and the people making them get their salaries. I think it's a terrible thing that there are people in poverty, but saying they're entitled to free money that involuntarily comes out of the pockets of other people is similarly unjust, because now they're sitting on stolen money.
[QUOTE=Stopper;43361687]I'm an electronic engineer. I studied in a vocational high school specializing in technology for 6 years, completed my bachelor's and am working for my master's degree. In total, I will have spent almost 15 years of my life studying this subject. Do you think a CEO that earns a 100 times as much as me has 100 times the talent or skill?[/QUOTE] The COE most definitely has more than 100 times the responsibility. Talent and skill aren't the only factors.
[QUOTE=halofreak472;43362506]Secondly, they don't need to give back to society, there's no debt they owe. To get rich, you have to do something that can either make someone money, or make something that they feel is worth more to them than their own money. So, you get your profit off of that, the other person is now better off than they were without your service, and everyone is happy. If you have an apple, and your friend has an orange, and both of you value the other's product, then you trade them. If you turn out to know a lot of people who think an apple is worth more than an orange, then you can start pulling in the massive stashes of oranges. Is it fair for them to come breaking down your doors and taking them back from you, demanding that you need to give them what you owed them?[/QUOTE] Why is it that in order to defend libertarianism or attack taxation it always gets simplified down to elementary school levels? The world isn't that simple. Is it because that's as much as you understand of economics, or is it because the only way you can push that logic is by removing so many relevant factors that you're left with an analogy that barely resembles reality? [QUOTE]I think it's a terrible thing that there are people in poverty, but saying they're entitled to free money that involuntarily comes out of the pockets of other people is similarly unjust, because now they're sitting on stolen money.[/QUOTE] Again, calling taxes "stolen money" is a gross oversimplification and logical fallacy. If someone is forced to work to survive but his pay is vastly inferior to what he is actually worth, is that not his time and effort being stolen? That's the problem that conservative libertarians never seem to recognize.
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