France's 75% tax rate approved by top court after revisions
513 replies, posted
[QUOTE=hexpunK;43374408]Because flat rates are still fucking laughably atrocious. Being given a pay rise won't fix that. Only awful economists seem to think a flat tax actually works without ruining the poor.[/QUOTE]
Wouldn't a flat tax work quite well with a tax free basic living bracket?
E.g.
£10k/year - 0% tax
Above - 25% tax
[QUOTE=Flapadar;43378823]Wouldn't a flat tax work quite well with a tax free basic living bracket?
E.g.
£10k/year - 0% tax
Above - 25% tax[/QUOTE]
So then it's not a flat tax rate, is it?
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;43356939]I won't pretend to know loads about the Singaporean economy, [/QUOTE]
Apologies for not replying to this sooner.
Singapore? It's VERY rich, richer than even the US on a per capita basis, and it's booming, what more do you need to know? lol
[QUOTE]but the fact of the matter is that Denmark is doing pretty darn well, [/QUOTE]
Define "quite well". You saw those growth rates I posted, they're anemic, even going back to before the crash in 2008
[QUOTE]and most importantly everyone is doing quite well. [/QUOTE]
Hmmmm, "everyone" is doing quite well in Denmark? How many new billionaires has Denmark produced in the last decade? How about millionaires?
[QUOTE]To my knowledge, Singapore has only recently begun to grow that much, and it's growth seems from the chart to be [/QUOTE]
Like the other Asian countries I pointed out it's been booming for decades. They've gone from African-style agrarian economies to high-tech, high-wealth societies very quickly while we've generally lost our way. Look at their tax-rates.
[QUOTE]
[I]very[/I] dependent on what the US and the like are doing. Denmark is as well, but if you look at the growth dip in 2009 Singapore went from 7.7 to -1.3 in 2 years, and then to 14.5%. Might be a capitalist paradise, but it doesn't seem all that stable to me - at least yet. [/QUOTE]
How can you not know Singapore is filthy rich? The only nations in Europe that are better off are Luxembourg and Norway....possibly Switzerland too. The other few dozen are worse-off.
[IMG]http://www.sunscreen.com.sg/backgrounds/Aerial_View_of_Singapore.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE]Because the European economy isn't as large? [/QUOTE]
Again, not true.
[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29[/URL]
[QUOTE]We have companies like Mærsk [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]and [B]Vestas[/B] here in Denmark, [/QUOTE]
lol who? Wow, 6.9 billion Euros of revenue. :v:
[QUOTE]and Nokia in Finland, etc. [/QUOTE]
The same Nokia that went from world domination of phones to irrelevant in phones, in 10 years?
[QUOTE]I suppose the laws in America is more lenient and thus better for big corporations? That isn't necessarily better for the populace, though. [/QUOTE]
How about startups? Not all business is done by multi-billion dollar monoliths.
[QUOTE]Ehh, people under the poverty line doesn't say anything about income equality -
[/QUOTE]
Yeah I added another link above that, did you see it?
[QUOTE]especially when the poverty line varies from country to country. The rich in Denmark isn't as rich as the rich people in Singepore and the US, and the poor people aren't as poor as the poor people in those countries. [/QUOTE]
Let's all be identical. Fuck people who are special and stand out head and shoulders above others, fuck letting them be rewarded for that.
[QUOTE]Then you're either blind or xenophobic. [/QUOTE]
Neither. Probably just "lucky" that whenever I look I never have to see that, although, the other day I did see something, for the first time, that looked a bit xenophobic, and I dissaprove of it.
[QUOTE]Yeah, I think it's healthy. We have great schools, roads, health care, etc. I'd rather pay the state for health care than a private firm that needs to turn profits. [/QUOTE]
Denmark has no dynamism though, almost no growth. Denmark like the rest of the Western world, but especially Europe, is lagging and falling behind. Do you really want to live in a 2nd-rate country in 30 or 50 years from now?
[QUOTE]That's not a democratic right, though? You have the right of keeping your property, but you'll have to pay taxes whether you want to or not. [/QUOTE]
No, just leave, or hire clever accountants and lawyers :)
[QUOTE]Joke of the year.[/QUOTE]
:v:
And it still is bullshit, because if you're earning 11k/year you're actually getting 7.8k or so, putting you back below the bare minimum. It's inherently broken.
[QUOTE=Stopper;43378834]So then it's not a flat tax rate, is it?[/QUOTE]
I'm not wanting to argue terminology - I see that as a flat tax rate
[QUOTE=Stopper;43378841]And it still is bullshit, because if you're earning 11k/year you're actually getting 7.8k or so, putting you back below the bare minimum. It's inherently broken.[/QUOTE]
Where are you getting that? 25% on income [b]over[/b] £10k
[QUOTE=Flapadar;43378847]I'm not wanting to argue terminology - I see that as a flat tax rate[/QUOTE]
Then look at my post right above this one - it's broken. A flat tax rate is just a monumentally bad idea in every possible way.
[QUOTE=Stopper;43378850]Then look at my post right above this one - it's broken. A flat tax rate is just a monumentally bad idea in every possible way.[/QUOTE]
You completely misunderstood what I was saying - see above
[QUOTE=Flapadar;43378847]I'm not wanting to argue terminology - I see that as a flat tax rate
Where are you getting that? 25% on income [b]over[/b] £10k[/QUOTE]
Oh, I thought you meant... Yeah, I see what you mean.
But why? Why not just stick with tax brackets which make everything basically better by putting you under less pressure the less money you have??
[QUOTE=Stopper;43378857]Oh, I thought you meant... Yeah, I see what you mean.
But why? Why not just stick with tax brackets which make everything basically better by putting you under less pressure the less money you have??[/QUOTE]
I'll use the UK tax system as an example. Right now it's overcomplicated and punishes people for earning more.
£0-9440/year: 0% tax
£9441-35,000: 20% tax
£35,001-150,000: 40% tax
£150,000-?: 50% tax
Essentially the more you earn, the more you lose per hour you work. It gets even worse if you have to do your own taxes with ridiculously complicated forms - I'm going to have to do my taxes myself in April, and while I'd like to just write the government a cheque (figure of speech, I don't use cheques) for what I owe, it's going to be a horribly messy time.
[editline]1st January 2014[/editline]
I've seen the tax rate kill the drive of people to actually work more - it's countering progression towards a productive economy
[QUOTE=Stopper;43378791]Oh my god - I've never seen someone so misguided and so delusional.
Ok, I'm going to explain it in a way that even my 2 year old cousin will understand me.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Everyone goes to work.
[/QUOTE]
Really? You've not been in a Western city lately have you? If everyone goes to work explain the UK £220 billion social security bill (only half of that is pensions btw).
[QUOTE]They voluntarily give a portion of their money to the government.
[/QUOTE]
Nope, in some countries it's paid by the employer. The PAYE system in the UK. In the UK you don't even get the opportunity to dodge taxes if you're working, and in other countries where you can, you go to jail.
[QUOTE]The government then takes this money and spreads it around to where it is needed.
[/QUOTE]
"Government can spend money more efficiently than the private sector". Again, you're deluded.
[QUOTE]Including back to you. [/QUOTE]
"Government can spend my money more efficiently than me". That's your problem bud, not mine. And it all goes to the idea of people being pussified sheep. I don't need other people to tell me how to use MY money. Also how much does it cost in terms of civil servants, to take your money from you, only to hand you some of it straight back?
[QUOTE]Including back to services you use. [/QUOTE]
"The state can run services better than the private sector". Ok, for things like fire protection and police you're right, but what business does the state have in anything else? What if you don't use state hospitals, why should you have to pay 100% for them?
[QUOTE]When you've paid to the government, you deserve a portion back - in both money [I]and[/I] services. [/QUOTE]
Wouldn't it be cheaper and more efficient just not to take it in the first place?
[QUOTE]If you don't understand this concept, you're going to have trouble functioning in society.[/QUOTE]
There's no such thing as society. We're all individuals.
[QUOTE]Second part: Because for every "welfare queen" as you call them, there's a hundred single mothers who can be bothered, but can't do it by themselves. The government has institutions that work to single out the people taking advantage of the system, AS IS WITH ALL OTHER SPHERES OF LIFE.[/QUOTE]
Those institutions fail hard.
[QUOTE]But honestly, you sound like you live in a bubble made by Ayn Rand. Just careful about speaking your opinion in public - some people might not appreciate being told to pull themselves by their bootstraps when they've been struggling to pay their bills after years of working minimum wage.[/QUOTE]
It was their choice. Did someone put a gun to their head and force them? And just how much of the population works for minimum wage anyway?
[editline]1st January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE]
And this part - I'm almost certain that if I look hard enough I can find this somewhere in "Atlas Shrugged". [/QUOTE]
So, just how many times have you read Das Kapital then?
[QUOTE]You're just absolutely disgusting.[/QUOTE]
And like a typical left-wing extremist you resort to personal insults whenever you don't get your way, at least I've kept it civilized the whole time, apart from my TL;DR comment to Hexpunk for which I apologize for.
[editline]1st January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Stopper;43378857]Oh, I thought you meant... Yeah, I see what you mean.
But why? Why not just stick with tax brackets which make everything basically better by putting you under less pressure the less money you have??[/QUOTE]
Here's something I think you and a lot of other people on here will probably like :)
[video=youtube;_sxTbfeYdO0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sxTbfeYdO0[/video]
[editline]1st January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Flapadar;43378889]
I've seen the tax rate kill the drive of people to actually work more - it's countering progression towards a productive economy[/QUOTE]
This is happening all across the Western world and we're being pushed aside as a result. Everyone expects a handout, no-one, especially politicians, takes responsibility, but just passes the buck, then the few people who do well are demonized.
Every time I see those huge posts quoting parts of the previous post and posting something to counter it I just know it's time to get the fuck out of the thread.
[QUOTE=proch;43379011]Every time I see those huge posts quoting parts of the previous post and posting something to counter it I just know it's time to get the fuck out of the thread.[/QUOTE]
There's no reasoning with leftards. I'm starting to wonder if there's somekind of strutural abnormality with the left-wing brain. 100% emotion, 0% logic :(
I actually wasn't siding with anyone you know.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43379026]There's no reasoning with leftards. I'm starting to wonder if there's somekind of strutural abnormality with the left-wing brain. 100% emotion, 0% logic :([/QUOTE]
I was going to post a reasonable reply to your semi-coherent rant up above. But the fact you [b]keep[/b] posting shit like this makes me think you're not worth the time as you'll just brush it off with another post like this when it stops going your way.
By the way, Asia is only going to the moon right now due to a massive gap in wealth, several humans rights abuses per company and currupt as fuck government. There are still slums bordering successful major cities, just look at Dubai. People are.being worked to suicide on a regular basis, look at Foxconn in China. Children are being used as cheap labour in the sweatshops that are giving Asia its few super rich.
[QUOTE=Stopper;43361687]I'm an electronic engineer. I studied in a vocational high school specializing in technology for 6 years, completed my bachelor's and am working for my master's degree. In total, I will have spent almost 15 years of my life studying this subject. Do you think a CEO that earns a 100 times as much as me has 100 times the talent or skill?[/QUOTE]
Maybe not 100x skill or talent, but 100x responsibility. They're responsible for hundreds, or thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands, of employees. They're responsible for finances totalling in the millions or even billions....
[editline]1st January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=hexpunK;43379084]I was going to post a reasonable reply to your semi-coherent rant up above. But the fact you [b]keep[/b] posting shit like this makes me think you're not worth the time as you'll just brush it off with another post like this when it stops going your way.
[/QUOTE]
Semi-coherent? What didn't you understand? I'll try and explain it in simpler terms if that helps. *fetches crayons*
PS I note still no apology from you over your massively presumptious comments the other night. You got an apology for my "TL;DR" and an eventual reply.
[QUOTE][By the way, Asia is only going to the moon right now due to a massive gap in wealth, several humans rights abuses per company and currupt as fuck government. [/QUOTE]
Asia is still booming. Hundreds of millions in China alone have been removed from poverty in just the last 30 years since they started experimenting with modern capitalism. How many were rescued from poverty during the previous 30 years, during the cultural revolution?
[QUOTE]
There are still slums bordering successful major cities, just look at Dubai. People are.being worked to suicide on a regular basis, look at Foxconn in China. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Children are being used as cheap labour in the sweatshops that are giving Asia its few super rich.[/QUOTE]
In Singapore, South Korea and Taiwan?
That's why I picked them out and not China or India. But let's include them - didn't we have similar Human rights abuses and crappy workplace standards during our own industrializations? Bit rich to say, "we've got ours, so fuck the others now". And if you really feel that strongly, then everytime you see, "Made in China" put it back on the shelf - ultimately you'll be doing more harm than good though.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43379026]There's no reasoning with leftards. I'm starting to wonder if there's somekind of strutural abnormality with the left-wing brain. 100% emotion, 0% logic :([/QUOTE]
Yes, leftism is actually a mental deficiency. Thankfully, you're here to save us, Dr. Mengele.
I give up, no point in arguing - all the arguments have been exhausted and you can't step out of your little cute bubble where you can [I]always[/I] find a 6 figure job.
[QUOTE=Stopper;43379157]Yes, leftism is actually a mental deficiency. Thankfully, you're here to save us, Dr. Mengele. [/QUOTE]
Does this qualify as Godwin's Law?
[QUOTE]I give up, no point in arguing - all the arguments have been exhausted and you can't step out of your little cute bubble where you can [I]always[/I] find a 6 figure job.[/QUOTE]
How many people are actually trying? Not enough. It's too easy to expect handouts from someone else. You might not make it to 6 or 7 figures, but you'll at least better yourself in the process of trying. What do you gain by accepting that minimum wage job for life? Jeez get some ambition. So many people have given up and don't even try anymore.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43379094]Semi-coherent? What didn't you understand? I'll try and explain it in simpler terms if that helps. *fetches crayons*[/quote]
This shit. This shit right here is why nobody is taking you seriously (but me I feel, largely because when you aren't being a raging cunt you're half decent debate). Coherency isn't what I understand, it's that your rant is a massively block of text that partially addresses my post, and partially veers off into to territory I wasn't actually covering.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43379094]PS I note still no apology from you over your massively presumptious comments the other night. You got an apology for my "TL;DR" and an eventual reply.[/quote]
Which bits? The "xenophobia" bit? Well, if you really have only just come across an example of xenophobia, what was it? Why is that the only thing you've noticed so far? This country has quite a big issue with it, especially when some of our largest publications thrive off the idea that everyone is scared of the "foreigns". I apologised for most everything else that was worth apologising for. Considering you are resorting to insults every other post now (largely directed at "leftism" being a mental disorder (which is pretty fucking pathetic to use as an insult, lets just make a joke out of mental disorder har har!)) I think you need to do more apologising to others who are trying to be remotely civil.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43379094]Asia is still booming. Hundreds of millions in China alone have been removed from poverty in just the last 30 years since they started experimenting with modern capitalism. How many were rescued from poverty during the previous 30 years, during the cultural revolution?[/quote]
True, people are being pulled out of poverty every day. And as you point out, we saw similar things happening during our industrialisation. Does that make the low wages and other shit that people bordering on the poverty line face right? Assuming they continue down the relatively pure capitalist route they are taking will this ever fix itself? Seeing as our companies rely on them for cheap labour I can't see it happening myself. They'd lose too much business.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43379094]In Singapore, South Korea and Taiwan?
That's why I picked them out and not China or India. But let's include them - didn't we have similar Human rights abuses and crappy workplace standards during our own industrializations? Bit rich to say, "we've got ours, so fuck the others now". And if you really feel that strongly, then everytime you see, "Made in China" put it back on the shelf - ultimately you'll be doing more harm than good though.[/QUOTE]
Avoiding stuff from China is borderline impossible. Considering my degree and the industry I am aiming for relies on components manufactured over there. But even outside of my degree it's pretty fucking impossible.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;43379253]This shit. This shit right here is why nobody is taking you seriously (but me I feel, largely because when you aren't being a raging cunt you're half decent debate). [/QUOTE]
Yeah because your posts are overflowing with "Winner" and "Agrees".
You sound kinda enraged....how strange, I'm completely calm, why can't you handle a civilzed debate without getting mad or insulting? I notice this VERY often with people who call themselves leftists. You refute their arguments with good, solid evidence and they lose it.
[QUOTE]Coherency isn't what I understand, it's that your rant is a massively block of text that partially addresses my post, and partially veers off into to territory I wasn't actually covering.[/QUOTE]
Example?
[QUOTE]Which bits? The "xenophobia" bit? [/QUOTE]
That and assuming I'd led a problem-free life. You seem to enjoy making assumptions with zero evidence to back them up.
[QUOTE]Well, if you really have only just come across an example of xenophobia, what was it?
[/QUOTE]
The Daily Mail thing which you tried to excuse but didn't apologize for. Don't apologize now, I'm just pointing out the fact you can deal a low blow totally remorselessly.
[QUOTE]Why is that the only thing you've noticed so far? This country has quite a big issue with it, especially when some of our largest publications thrive off the idea that everyone is scared of the "foreigns". I apologised for most everything else that was worth apologising for.
[/QUOTE]
What?
[QUOTE]Considering you are resorting to insults every other post now (largely directed at "leftism" being a mental disorder (which is pretty fucking pathetic to use as an insult, lets just make a joke out of mental disorder har har!)) I think you need to do more apologising to others who are trying to be remotely civil.
[/QUOTE]
That guy started being rude first.
[QUOTE]True, people are being pulled out of poverty every day. And as you point out, we saw similar things happening during our industrialisation. Does that make the low wages and other shit that people bordering on the poverty line face right? Assuming they continue down the relatively pure capitalist route they are taking will this ever fix itself? Seeing as our companies rely on them for cheap labour I can't see it happening myself. They'd lose too much business.[/QUOTE]
Have conditions not improved in other richer capitalist Asian counties? 20 years ago South Korea was considered a sweatshop....
[QUOTE]Avoiding stuff from China is borderline impossible. Considering my degree and the industry I am aiming for relies on components manufactured over there. But even outside of my degree it's pretty fucking impossible.[/QUOTE]
So you'd like to avoid Chinese stuff....
You're absolutely INCAPABLE of admitting when you're wrong aren't you. Think we're probably done here as you seem to want this to degenerate into a personal slanging match. I'm not going to agree with your views no matter how much you try to bully me.
Fuck this. I'm out. You're a fucking lunatic. It was a reasonable debate until you started falling back on insulting people for "leftism".
And the great bit? I'm not actually mad in the slightest, just tired of your shit. Have you considered that my posts are receiving these ratings because maybe, just maybe, I'm being a decent human being and trying to explain this using actual sources and not anecdotes about how "I was homeless and now I'm not so everyone can do it"?
[editline]Edited[/editline]
Ahaha oh wow you actually went out of your way to rate a post of mine in the programming forum dumb? You truly are a petty little man.
[t]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6003122/fuckingidiot.PNG[/t]
[QUOTE=kuydna;43378838]Apologies for not replying to this sooner.
Singapore? It's VERY rich, richer than even the US on a per capita basis, and it's booming, what more do you need to know? lol
How can you not know Singapore is filthy rich? The only nations in Europe that are better off are Luxembourg and Norway....possibly Switzerland too. The other few dozen are worse-off.
[/quote]
Singapore is hardly a good example. Income inequality is a real and growing problem there. In the past 12 years, the income for the lowest 20% has fallen by 8%. The income for the top 20% has grown by 27%. It ranks 26th out of 136 countries for having the worst GINI rating (1 being the worst, 136 being the best), ahead of places like Ecuador, Madagascar and China . Oh, and it's not a thing of them being lazy. On average, Singaporean's work 2287 hours a year, more than almost every other country, There is no(!) minimum wage and no official poverty line. Social unrest is only growing in Singapore, and that is not a good thing.
And seriously, stop with the socialism and communism rhetoric.
[editline]1st January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=kuydna;43379324]
That guy started being rude first.
[/QUOTE]
"But he started it!"
That sounds incredibly childish.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;43379352]Fuck this. I'm out. You're a fucking lunatic. It was a reasonable debate until you started falling back on insulting people for "leftism".[/QUOTE]
Well, you're acting like someone with pretty serious mental problems.
[QUOTE]And the great bit? I'm not actually mad in the slightest, just tired of your shit. Have you considered that my posts are receiving these ratings [/QUOTE]
They're your buddies or fellow lefties.
[QUOTE]because maybe, just maybe, I'm being a decent human [/QUOTE]
Accusing people of xenophobia, making presumptions about people's pasts, insulting people and getting angry, never admitting when you're wrong or at fault. Sorry but that sounds like the behaviour of a spoilt entitled kid.
[QUOTE]being and trying to explain this using actual sources and not anecdotes about how "I was homeless and now I'm not so everyone can do it"?[/QUOTE]
What evidence are you presenting? You have nothing, just emotional crap, insults and a spreadsheet.
I didn't say everyone can make it, I said everyone isn't trying and everyone should, and if they don't then they shouldn't go looking for handouts - especially at > 50%
And I never said it was easy.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43379397]They're your buddies or fellow lefties.[/QUOTE]
Or, alternatively, they just disagree with you, or agree with him. Stop making it into an us vs them.
Also, earlier in the thread you were trying to call out OogalaBoogala on his claims. I know him personally, and the claims he made are, in fact, true.
[QUOTE=Ogopogo;43379359]Singapore is hardly a good example. Income inequality is a real and growing problem there. In the past 12 years, the income for the lowest 20% has fallen by 8%. The income for the top 20% has grown by 27%. It ranks 26th out of 136 countries for having the worst GINI rating (1 being the worst, 136 being the best), ahead of places like Ecuador, Madagascar and China . Oh, and it's not a thing of them being lazy. On average, Singaporean's work 2287 hours a year, more than almost every other country, There is no(!) minimum wage and no official poverty line. Social unrest is only growing in Singapore, and that is not a good thing.[/QUOTE]
How about Korea and Taiwan?
Also not sure about your income inequality figures....
[URL]https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sn.html[/URL]
Those are not that much worse than the US, which by international standards isn't that bad.
[QUOTE]And seriously, stop with the socialism and communism rhetoric.[/QUOTE]
What is it then? You don't want those words because of the negative connotations?
[editline]1st January 2014[/editline]
"But he started it!"
[QUOTE]That sounds incredibly childish.[/QUOTE]
I tried being patient, but how much BS should someone tolerate? And the bottom-line is in my extensive personal experience leftists consistently act like insane, emotional people.
[editline]1st January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ogopogo;43379423]Or, alternatively, they just disagree with you, or agree with him. Stop making it into an us vs them.
Also, earlier in the thread you were trying to call out OogalaBoogala on his claims. I know him personally, and the claims he made are, in fact, true.[/QUOTE]
Don't care if people agree or not, I'm just stating facts as I see them. But sadly the people who are of the opposite opinion can't keep it civilized.
What claims did I call him out on? I said he should pay 75% tax if he felt that strongly about it, he said he would lol, that stuff?
[QUOTE=Eudoxia;43346247]Please reelect this man. I want to see France continue in this direction.[/QUOTE]
rule of thumb: we're such whiners that we never reelect the same man
only exception was Jacques Chirac because the other guy that was about to win is a neo nazi
[QUOTE=kuydna;43379424]
Also not sure about your income inequality figures....
[URL]https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sn.html[/URL]
Those are not that much worse than the US, which by international standards isn't that bad.
[/quote]
[url=https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2172rank.html]Yes[/url]
[quote]
What is it then? You don't want those words because of the negative connotations?[/quote]
No, you are grouping people who disagree with your opinion into one pool, where in reality, many of these people don't fit. Someone disagreeing with your opinion doesn't necessarily make them a socialist or communist. You'd have a much better debate if you stopped turning it into an us vs them scenario.
[quote]
I tried being patient, but how much BS should someone tolerate? And the bottom-line is in my extensive personal experience leftists consistently act like insane, emotional people.[/QUOTE]
Case and point.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43378838]Apologies for not replying to this sooner.
Singapore? It's VERY rich, richer than even the US on a per capita basis, and it's booming, what more do you need to know? lol
[/quote]
Sure, per capita, averaging out the income. Every 6th person is apparently a millionaire, meaning that the average is basically balloned by that. Not everyone is doing great, but some people are flithy rich.
[quote]
Define "quite well". You saw those growth rates I posted, they're anemic, even going back to before the crash in 2008
[/quote]
Quite well - most people are in good health, everyone can read, no corruption, and most people get an education beyond the basic level - such as a university degree or the like. I live in an average home, and I can go out and buy microphones or a new bicycle without breaking the bank. I worked until fairly recently, but decided not to get another job in order to focus on my finals - as we have SU, I don't need to work (though I'll definitely get a job after I'm done this year, preferably relevant to do what I want later on) right now.
[QUOTE]Hmmmm, "everyone" is doing quite well in Denmark? How many new billionaires has Denmark produced in the last decade? How about millionaires?[/QUOTE]
The thing is, there's really no need for people to hoard money. Instead of having one guy having a billion dollars, why not give that money to a lot of average people instead? They'll end up using all the money buying goods, etc. meaning that instead of having money just sitting there, it's being put into the economy again, creating growth. Rather a large middle class with purchasing power than a few individuals with billions of dollars. Mærsk McKinney died last year (or thereabouts) - he had about 18 billion dollars in personal assets iirc, so I guess we do have a few rich people.
[QUOTE]Like the other Asian countries I pointed out it's been booming for decades. They've gone from African-style agrarian economies to high-tech, high-wealth societies very quickly while we've generally lost our way. Look at their tax-rates.[/QUOTE]
Japan's growth basically looks like Denmark's, and the population is growing older and older. You say Asian, but really you mean Singapore and Hong Kong (and maybe South Korea, though their growth is slowing down). Singapore's (and Hong Kong's, I guess) growth is great, but that's basically a tax haven for rich people and the income inequality is quite big. But looking and both Hong Kong and Singapore, their growth is more erratic than Denmark's and Japan's - that's a trait of a deregulated market; less stability.
[quote]
How can you not know Singapore is filthy rich? The only nations in Europe that are better off are Luxembourg and Norway....possibly Switzerland too. The other few dozen are worse-off.
[/quote]
Ehmm, I do know Singapore is filthy rich - some of my friends went there last year and had quite a trip. And for a little laugh:
[IMG]http://files.doobybrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/lower-manhattan-1929.jpg[/IMG]
Manhattan, just before or after the Great Depression. Cool looking buildings, though?
[quote]
Again, not true.
[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29[/URL]
[/quote]
Yeah, the entire European Union is as big as the US, but it's still not as coherent a market as the US.
[quote]
lol who? Wow, 6.9 billion Euros of revenue. :v:
[/quote]
Vestas Wind Systems. Anyway, Mærsk had 50 billion dollars of revenue last year, and we're talking about Denmark here. We also have Novozymes and Novo Nordisk, who are both pretty big companies. Maybe not as big as Microsoft or Google, but for a population of 5 million I think it's pretty good.
[quote]
The same Nokia that went from world domination of phones to irrelevant in phones, in 10 years?
[/quote]
Hardly irrelevant, and they were world dominating just a few years ago - your point? HTC in Taiwan isn't doing that well either, and basically only Samsung and Apple are competing right now.
[quote]
How about startups? Not all business is done by multi-billion dollar monoliths.
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I don't know the climate for startups here in Denmark - the green grocer down the corner is doing pretty well, though. The corporate tax here in Denmark is only 25%, though, while it's 40% in the US. On the other hand, we have a lot of regulations that you don't, and I suppose those stand in the way for seriously lucrative business.
[QUOTE]Yeah I added another link above that, did you see it?[/QUOTE]
Saw it now, and it basically proved what I said? Singapore and Hong Kong have an income inequality twice that of Denmark, comparable to third world countries. The US is also doing pretty shit in that department.
[quote]
Let's all be identical. Fuck people who are special and stand out head and shoulders above others, fuck letting them be rewarded for that.
[/quote]
Uhh, no? If you're basing individualism on wealth you're a fucking sorry person.
[quote]
Neither. Probably just "lucky" that whenever I look I never have to see that, although, the other day I did see something, for the first time, that looked a bit xenophobic, and I dissaprove of it.
[/quote]
The Daily Mail is a racist, xenophobic and sensationalist newspaper - not much more to discuss, it's simply a fact. I'm glad you don't look at it that often, though.
[quote]
Denmark has no dynamism though, almost no growth. Denmark like the rest of the Western world, but especially Europe, is lagging and falling behind. Do you really want to live in a 2nd-rate country in 30 or 50 years from now?
[/quote]
I think that's a bit early to say - right now Asia is basically just exporting shit to Denmark and other western countries, but what happens when their workers want to get paid more than a dollar an hour? India, China, etc. still has a long way to go, and personally I'd rather live in a stable economy than an erratic, dynamic one.
[quote]
No, just leave, or hire clever accountants and lawyers :)
[/quote]
Sure, do that then. Personally I think tax avoiders are the scum of the earth, and they're basically leeching off society - move out instead of avoiding taxes, I'd rather have you do that. If you value your money more than your friends, family and country, that's pretty depressing, though.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;43379501]Sure, per capita, averaging out the income. Every 6th person is apparently a millionaire, meaning that the average is basically balloned by that. Not everyone is doing great, but some people are flithy rich.
Quite well - most people are in good health, everyone can read, no corruption, and most people get an education beyond the basic level - such as a university degree or the like. I live in an average home, and I can go out and buy microphones or a new bicycle without breaking the bank. I worked until fairly recently, but decided not to get another job in order to focus on my finals - as we have SU, I don't need to work (though I'll definitely get a job after I'm done this year, preferably relevant to do what I want later on) right now. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
The thing is, there's really no need for people to hoard money. Instead of having one guy having a billion dollars,
[/QUOTE]
You'd object to being rich? You couldn't find lots of kewl things to buy for yourself, family and friends if you were a millionaire or even billionaire? :)
[QUOTE]why not give that money to a lot of average people instead? [/QUOTE]
What did they do to deserve it?
[QUOTE]They'll end up using all the money buying goods, etc. [/QUOTE]
Not neccessarrilly from your company though....
[QUOTE]meaning that instead of having money just sitting there, it's being put into the economy again, creating growth. [/QUOTE]
But someone has to build that yacht or mansion, the money isn't wasted, is it? Even if it just sits there in banks, the banks make loans right? Granted a lot is kept in stocks, and if rich people wanna give that away (like Bill Gates etc) then that's upto them, but is it reasonable for the state to take it from them, especially at > 50%
[QUOTE]Rather a large middle class with purchasing power than a few individuals with billions of dollars. Mærsk McKinney died last year (or thereabouts) - he had about 18 billion dollars in personal assets iirc, so I guess we do have a few rich people. [/QUOTE]
Denmark (as the rest of Scandinavia) does seem like a nice, peaceful place, I just worry about the future growth potential of that economic model....I guess we'll see, $18 bn is pretty nice :P
[QUOTE]
Japan's growth basically looks like Denmark's, and the population is growing older and older. You say Asian, but really you mean Singapore and Hong Kong (and maybe South Korea, though their growth is slowing down).
Singapore's (and Hong Kong's, I guess) growth is great, but that's basically a tax haven for rich people and the income inequality is quite big. But looking and both Hong Kong and Singapore, their growth is more erratic than Denmark's and Japan's - that's a trait of a deregulated market; less stability.
Ehmm, I do know Singapore is filthy rich - some of my friends went there last year and had quite a trip. And for a little laugh:
[IMG]http://files.doobybrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/lower-manhattan-1929.jpg[/IMG]
Manhattan, just before or after the Great Depression. Cool looking buildings, though?
[/QUOTE]
Kewl photo :)
[QUOTE]
Yeah, the entire European Union is as big as the US, but it's still not as coherent a market as the US. [/QUOTE]
Maybe not as much, but the single currency makes a big difference....
[QUOTE]
Vestas Wind Systems. Anyway, Mærsk had 50 billion dollars of revenue last year, and we're talking about Denmark here. We also have Novozymes and Novo Nordisk, who are both pretty big companies. Maybe not as big as Microsoft or Google, but for a population of 5 million I think it's pretty good.
[/QUOTE]
Washington State has not much more people than that, but has Microsoft, Starbucks, Boeing, Valve, Amazon....
[QUOTE]
Hardly irrelevant, and they were world dominating just a few years ago - your point? HTC in Taiwan isn't doing that well either, and basically only Samsung and Apple are competing right now.
[/QUOTE]
You mentioned Nokia like it was something very special. Taiwan is also pretty much king of motherboards....
As for Korea; Samsung, LG, Hyundai have hundreds of billions of dollars of revenue between them.
[QUOTE]
I don't know the climate for startups here in Denmark - the green grocer down the corner is doing pretty well, though. The corporate tax here in Denmark is only 25%, though, while it's 40% in the US. On the other hand, we have a lot of regulations that you don't, and I suppose those stand in the way for seriously lucrative business.
[/QUOTE]
25% is extremely reasonable IMO. I'd hate to see it hit 75%....
[QUOTE]
Saw it now, and it basically proved what I said? Singapore and Hong Kong have an income inequality twice that of Denmark, comparable to third world countries. The US is also doing pretty shit in that department.
[/QUOTE]
I stand corrected.
[QUOTE]
Uhh, no? If you're basing individualism on wealth you're a fucking sorry person.
[/QUOTE]
I meant if you are smart enough or hard-working enough or resilient enough to do something special, and the marketplace agrees with you about how special it is, then you have a chance of making money. If you're just the same as everyone else, and everyone else has essentially given up (certainly in the UK anyway), then you won't....I meant individualistic in economic outlook. You can dye your hair green and have 800 piercings or whatever, but if you have no ambition or expect handouts, how is that special?
[QUOTE]
The Daily Mail is a racist, xenophobic and sensationalist newspaper - not much more to discuss, it's simply a fact. I'm glad you don't look at it that often, though.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
I think that's a bit early to say - right now Asia is basically just exporting shit to Denmark and other western countries, but what happens when their workers want to get paid more than a dollar an hour? India, China, etc. still has a long way to go, and personally I'd rather live in a stable economy than an erratic, dynamic one.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, they're currently far too dependant on exports, but that is starting to change. China has a huge and rapidly growing middle-class which is feeding domestic demand.
IDK, is it really, "shit" they're exporting? As Hexpunk said it's almost impossible to get away from, "Made in China", probably almost everything in the room you're in right now, at least electrical equipment. Is your phone shit? Your TV? Your PC's components? Your iPod etc?
[QUOTE]
Sure, do that then. Personally I think tax avoiders are the scum of the earth, and they're basically leeching off society - move out instead of avoiding taxes, I'd rather have you do that. If you value your money more than your friends, family and country, that's pretty depressing, though.[/QUOTE]
How are they leeching off society? If we use an example like, say, Garry, or maybe Notch, if Garry's a bad idea - how can we say they're leeching? They produced a game, or 2, in G's case that have been popular enough to buy by large amounts of people. No-one's being forced to buy those games, they're not excessivly priced, they still pay huge amounts in taxes despite it probably only being corporate tax which I believe is fairly similar in Sweden to the UK (around about 25%). Then they hire people, those people pay taxes in turn. I'm finding it hard to see any leeching....
I keep seeing the same phrase over and over...
The rich hoarding money
Wtf does this mean anyway? First let me point out that even money in a bank account (litterally the worst investment for large sums) is itself reinvested. It builds the stores you shop at, the restaurants you eat at, finances the expansion where you work- quite simply this is job creation. I don't know why so many of you have this image of everyone with money having an underground vault of cash they swim around in- it's so mind numbingly ignorant that it kind of scares me people lack basic knowledge of how an economy works.
The second thing- just because someone has -let's say 10k dollars/ that doesn't mean they are preventing you from having/making money. Money is not a zero sum game. To suggest the rich, just by being rich, are stifling you is completely and utterly false.
[QUOTE=H8Entitlement;43379730]I keep seeing the same phrase over and over...
The rich hoarding money
Wtf does this mean anyway? First let me point out that even money in a bank account (litterally the worst investment for large sums) is itself reinvested. It builds the stores you shop at, the restaurants you eat at, finances the expansion where you work- quite simply this is job creation. I don't know why so many of you have this image of everyone with money having an underground vault of cash they swim around in- it's so mind numbingly ignorant that it kind of scares me people lack basic knowledge of how an economy works.
The second thing- just because someone has -let's say 10k dollars/ that doesn't mean they are preventing you from having/making money. Money is not a zero sum game. To suggest the rich, just by being rich, are stifling you is completely and utterly false.[/QUOTE]
MacFarlane has a lot to answer for :v:
[video=youtube;Xc2u6Tum1MM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc2u6Tum1MM[/video]
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