• France's 75% tax rate approved by top court after revisions
    513 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Valnar;43354622]How exactly is it immoral and unfair.[/QUOTE] People working their asses off only to have the fruits of their labour confiscated by profligate beuracrats. Which doesn't even work, as already stated, they can find a million ways around it. [QUOTE]Why should there be people who live in poverty[/QUOTE] How would you solve poverty? Give endless handouts to people? Or encourage them to take responsibility for their own lives, to be enterprising, to make the right decisions, to work hard, to be independant etc? [QUOTE]when there are people who not only make obscene amounts of money [/QUOTE] How can an amount of money be obscene? Surely it depends on how it was earned.... If someone invents, for example, the cure for cancer or warp drives or clean reneweble(ish) energy shouldn't they be heavily rewarded? What amount do you need to cross for it to be obscene? 6 figures? 7 figures? 10 figures? [QUOTE]but also run companies/corporations that only care about doing everything they can to increase their profit margins?[/QUOTE] Yeah, some regulations are needed, I'm not advocating a total free-for-all. That happened with banking.... [QUOTE]I ask again, why do you defend rich people?[/QUOTE] I intend to become one :) But not only that they've more often than not done something worthwhile to get there....not all, but most. AND....as already stated you attackl the rich, you undermine enterprise. You can't have a viable economy where the state owns and runs everything, well, you can; North Korea, Cuba etc. No thanks.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43354773]People working their asses off only to have the fruits of their labour confiscated by profligate beuracrats. Which doesn't even work, as already stated, they can find a million ways around it. [/quote] Why should some people have to work 60+ hours a week just to barely make ends meet? [quote]How would you solve poverty? Give endless handouts to people? Or encourage them to take responsibility for their own lives, to be enterprising, to make the right decisions, to work hard, to be independant etc?[/quote] A basic income for everyone would be a good way to make sure people don't have to live in destitution. Especially when they can't get a job off of the job tree. [quote]How can an amount of money be obscene? Surely it depends on how it was earned.... If someone invents, for example, the cure for cancer or warp drives or clean reneweble(ish) energy shouldn't they be heavily rewarded? What amount do you need to cross for it to be obscene? 6 figures? 7 figures? 10 figures?[/quote] I think when there is still a lot people living in poverty, that people having millions upon millions of dollars is can be pretty obscene. [quote]Yeah, some regulations are needed, I'm not advocating a total free-for-all. That happened with banking....[/quote] But wont regulations drive away rich people? [quote] I intend to become one :) But not only that they've more often than not done something worthwhile to get there....not all, but most. AND....as already stated you attackl the rich, you undermine enterprise. You can't have a viable economy where the state owns and runs everything, well, you can; North Korea, Cuba etc. No thanks.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't have such an issue with rich/big business if they actually included betterment for people as part of their goal. But they don't, the only goal is to increase profits. If philanthropy will increase or save profits, than philanthropy is done. If cutting the pay of workers can be done and will increase or save profits, than it will be done. Its the amorality of it that is so bad. And what really gets me is just how much non-rich people defend the rich, [u]the rich do not hold your best interest remotely close[/u].
[QUOTE=Valnar;43354856]Why should some people have to work 60+ hours a week just to barely make ends meet?[/QUOTE] Change jobs? Start a business? Improve their education/training? Also plenty of rich people working round the clock. [QUOTE]A basic income for everyone would be a good way to make sure people don't have to live in destitution. Especially when they can't get a job off of the job tree.[/QUOTE] That might actually be neccessarry in a post-scarcity age where all the work is done by machines, but that's a few decades, or more, away.... How much do you think that should be? If you introduced that now, how could you be sure people would continue to make any effort themselves? [QUOTE]I think when there is still a lot people living in poverty, that people having millions upon millions of dollars is can be pretty obscene.[/QUOTE] Why are they in poverty? [QUOTE]But wont regulations drive away rich people?[/QUOTE] Not if everyone agrees on it internationally. I see where you're going lol; "why doesn't everyone do that with tax so rich people have nowhere to escape"? It's still imoral. Also it still saps entrepreneurial spirit. [QUOTE]I wouldn't have such an issue with rich/big business if they actually included betterment for people as part of their goal.[/QUOTE] You mean like you having broadband Internet? Maybe having a phone that you could write this from? Who do you think is responsible for that? Famous rich people involved: Apple-> Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak Google-> Sergey Brin, Larry Page, Eric Schmidt Microsoft-> Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Steve Ballmer etc etc etc.... [QUOTE]But they don't, the only goal is to increase profits.[/QUOTE] They do both, some more than others. Simple example: Garry didn't want to be dependent on GMod forevermore, so introduced Rust. How does that harm anyone? You're not forced to buy their products. Hell, you can even participate in the game by investing in the stock market. [QUOTE]If philanthropy will increase or save profits, than philanthropy is done.[/QUOTE] [URL]http://givingpledge.org[/URL] Rich guys being evil [QUOTE]If cutting the pay of workers can be done and will increase or save profits, than it will be done.[/QUOTE] Then the workers find another job if it bothers them that much - or they make their own. [QUOTE]Its the amorality of it that is so bad. And what really gets me is just how much non-rich people defend the rich, [u]the rich do not hold your best interest remotely close[/u].[/QUOTE] So you think we should outlaw free-enterprise then, have the government own and produce everything for everyone? If you suddenly inherited a business paying a very healthy, but not amazing, profit, say 1 or 2m a year would you be happy to part with all of it, especially if you had to work around the clock to sustain the business?
[QUOTE=kuydna;43349186]Why do you feel the need to be so entitled? Someone is better off than me, so they should be [b]taxed to death.[/b][/QUOTE] [QUOTE=kuydna;43353825]Or at least not implement new [b]taxes that are equivalent to being buttraped with a hot poker.[/b][/QUOTE] What the everloving fuck do you even think taxes are?
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;43354992]What the everloving fuck do you even think taxes are?[/QUOTE] Some tax is inevitable and unavoidable. 75% isn't.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43349186]Why do you feel the need to be so entitled? Someone is better off than me, so they should be taxed to death. Instead of hating people who are better off than you, why not try emulating them?[/QUOTE] riddle me this genius, how can wealth exist in a society if one can earn it by "emulation"
[QUOTE=Valnar;43354622]How exactly is it immoral and unfair. Why should there be people who live in poverty when there are people who not only make obscene amounts of money but also run companies/corporations that only care about doing everything they can to increase their profit margins? I ask again, why do you defend rich people?[/QUOTE] Why, in your mind, should person x's income matter in regards to how person y is compensated? Because at this point it just sounds like blatent class warfare jealousy.
The dark blue on this chart I stole from wikipedia is pretty much the only legitimate criticism of higher percentage tax brackets. And even then I'm not sure how relevant it is to france. [IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2b/U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2011.png[/IMG]
[QUOTE=SCopE5000;43353489]It's a different kind of hard. The kind of hard where there simply is no illusion of guaranteed employment for the foreseeable future, nor any direction or instruction given. It's out there and plain to see that if you're idea isn't working, you're gone, along with the shareholders money. Entrepreneurs take similar risks to CEOs, that's why they tend to end up as CEOs of other companies (if not already CEOs of their own).[/QUOTE] Risks that are far easier to take when your family already has a great deal of money for you to fall back on if need be. Say you're some guy struggling to make ends meet in a lower-class neighborhood. You scrape up enough capital to get a loan for your start-up. Unfortunately, the business falls through. Chances are, you're now on the streets or very near destitution. If a wealthy person makes that same risk, they have a security blanket beyond what that lower-class person could ever imagine.
[QUOTE=thisispain;43355114]riddle me this genius, how can wealth exist in a society if one can earn it by "emulation"[/QUOTE] Who has more chance of getting rich, someone who tries to copy the way the [self-made] rich think and behave; acting opportunisticly, innovating, working-hard etc or someone who spends all their time whining about how unfair it all is and being dependant on others? Emulation of mental processes and behaviour - obviously you still need a product or service to sell. [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Megafan;43355142]Risks that are far easier to take when your family already has a great deal of money for you to fall back on if need be. Say you're some guy struggling to make ends meet in a lower-class neighborhood. You scrape up enough capital to get a loan for your start-up. Unfortunately, the business falls through. Chances are, you're now on the streets or very near destitution. If a wealthy person makes that same risk, they have a security blanket beyond what that lower-class person could ever imagine.[/QUOTE] Was the wealthy person always wealthy? Do all wealthy people come from rich families? I personally have been homeless; guess what, it's not a death sentence. Recover and try again. [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=zakedodead;43355134]The dark blue on this chart I stole from wikipedia is pretty much the only legitimate criticism of higher percentage tax brackets. And even then I'm not sure how relevant it is to france. [IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2b/U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2011.png[/IMG][/QUOTE] How much of that $3.5 trillion do you think is spent efficiently. Government tends to be shit at stuff, look at the mess they made of the Obamacare website. Maybe the French government is much better, I dunno, but it'll still be wasteful, government by its nature is. EDIT: You don't think that $223 billion for interest is a complete waste? How much of that social security budget is paid to people who simply can't be bothered making any effort or make their money from crime? "Other mandatory" + "discretionary" = $1 trillion+ ....what the fuck do they even mean!? I agree with you about defence spending; let so-called allies pay their own way.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43355144]I personally have been homeless; guess what, it's not a death sentence. Recover and try again.[/QUOTE] Being homeless isn't a death sentence, but losing income after the first million is being "taxed to death"? What the fuck world do you live in? [quote]Who has more chance of getting rich, someone who tries to copy the way the [self-made] rich think and behave; acting opportunisticly, innovating, working-hard etc or someone who spends all their time whining about how unfair it all is and being dependant on others?[/quote] You're missing the entire point when people say "not everyone can be rich". In order for the rich to exist, less rich people also have to exist. Do you think all of those less rich people deserve to be destitute and live shitty lives just because they weren't "opportunistic" enough?
[QUOTE=kuydna;43355144]Who has more chance of getting rich, someone who tries to copy the way the [self-made] rich think and behave; acting opportunisticly, innovating, working-hard etc or someone who spends all their time whining about how unfair it all is and being dependant on others? Emulation of mental processes and behaviour - obviously you still need a product or service to sell.[/QUOTE] neither have a chance of getting rich? i mean let me just deconstruct your statement there. you're talking about emulating the rich, and then you're talking about chance? you can't even be consistent in your own statement. being rich is a matter of circumstance. being rich is impossible without labour, infrastructure, capital. all of these require a society. the individual getting rich only on his accord is a fallacy.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;43355185]Being homeless isn't a death sentence, but losing income after the first million is being "taxed to death"? What the fuck world do you live in?[/QUOTE] Do you work? If you worked you'd understand wanting to retain as much of your earnings as possible. Also how much is the first million taxed at? It'll be VERY high, we're talking about France after all.
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[QUOTE=Helix Snake;43355185]Being homeless isn't a death sentence, but losing income after the first million is being "taxed to death"? What the fuck world do you live in? You're missing the entire point when people say "not everyone can be rich". In order for the rich to exist, less rich people also have to exist. Do you think all of those less rich people deserve to be destitute and live shitty lives just because they weren't "opportunistic" enough?[/QUOTE] WTF, where do you live dude, Somalia? Have you not heard of the middle classes? The choice isn't rich or destitution. [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Helix Snake;43355211]snip[/QUOTE] also snip
[QUOTE=kuydna;43355213]WTF, where do you live dude, Somalia? Have you not heard of the middle classes? The choice isn't rich or destitution.[/QUOTE] You mean the middle class that's currently shrinking because of the mindset that the rich should be allowed to make as much as they want and no one is allowed to complain about the rising wealth gap?
[QUOTE=thisispain;43355200]neither have a chance of getting rich? i mean let me just deconstruct your statement there. you're talking about emulating the rich, and then you're talking about chance? you can't even be consistent in your own statement. being rich is a matter of circumstance. being rich is impossible without labour, infrastructure, capital. all of these require a society. the individual getting rich only on his accord is a fallacy.[/QUOTE] Tell that to the guy who owns this website :)
the guy who owns this website made a mod based on the work of over 200 people.
[QUOTE=zakedodead;43355134]The dark blue on this chart I stole from wikipedia is pretty much the only legitimate criticism of higher percentage tax brackets. And even then I'm not sure how relevant it is to france. [IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2b/U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2011.png[/IMG][/QUOTE] Do I have this right? You don't like how it's spent so that to you justifies low tax rates?
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;43355217]You mean the middle class that's currently shrinking because of the mindset that the rich should be allowed to make as much as they want and no one is allowed to complain about the rising wealth gap?[/QUOTE] Why is the wealth gap rising? The world is a hard place, and it's becoming hyper-competitive. Everyone needs to adjust to that new reality. Why is it that so many people barely graduate high-school in the UK or US, is that something that might undermine their life chances, especially when you have competition like China, Korea, Taiwain etc? Whose fault is it? The rich? I did shit at school, should I blame Garry or maybe Notch or Bill Gates? *facepalm* [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;43355235]the guy who owns this website made a mod based on the work of over 200 people.[/QUOTE] What's to stop you from doing something similar? Or me? Or anyone else complaining on here? And it's still hard work; GMod = thousands of hours of work, and risks. A lot of people wouldn't have had the balls to go out on their own and try something like that, much easier to be secure in full-time paid employment, whose fault is that they won't take risks? Also I AM NOT SAYING 0% tax, am saying, 75% is far too much. Some tax is inevitable.
nothing's stopping me from doing anything, that's not the point. being rich is a matter of circumstance, it's not attained by rehashing "risk" BS like some kind of pastiche of 80's Wall street exec stereotypes.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43355241]Why is the wealth gap rising? The world is a hard place, and it's becoming hyper-competitive. Everyone needs to adjust to that new reality. Why is it that so many people barely graduate high-school in the UK or US, is that something that might undermine their life chances, especially when you have competition like China, Korea, Taiwain etc? Whose fault is it? The rich? I did shit at school, should I blame Garry or maybe Notch or Bill Gates? *facepalm*[/QUOTE] Are you seriously saying that the rising wealth gap is the fault of poor people? Every time someone mentions a trend you end up basically saying "well if you're poor it's your fault you're poor stop living in your parent's basement etc." and refusing to see the big picture. People are mentioning things that affect millions of people and when they do you basically attack THEM and tell them that THEY are a failure and it's their fault, as if people are only arguing for themselves.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;43355217]You mean the middle class that's currently shrinking because of the mindset that the rich should be allowed to make as much as they want and no one is allowed to complain about the rising wealth gap?[/QUOTE] indeed i'll just leave this here [url]http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/10/04/789523/-Citigroup-s-Shocking-Plutonomy-Reports-h-t-Michael-Moore[/url] i swear some folks in this forum either have bad memory(because this has been posted before several times), or they simply don't care. the middle class will probably not survive this century(barring massive social changes/revolutions) combined with the shitstorm that is increasing global warming which will drastically affect the poor, its a recipe for disaster. most people don't like to admit, but the reason the "west" gained so many rights to protect the workers of the poor/middle class, was due to the soviet union presenting a very credible threat to the entire idea of capitalism(especially at the early years after WW2, where if the soviets really wanted they would probably be able to steamroll most of europe unchecked, plus the countless socialist movements across the globe rising), now its gone, socialism is essentially dead in the US, drastically weakened across most of the globe and last hold of anything even resembling socialism are the nordic states which is also being broken down bit by bit, and there is no reason by corporations to "play nice" anymore. the only thing that MIGHT keep a middle class with some degree of voice so to speak, is the drastic rise of the tech sector we've been seeing, which will likely not stop any time soon(kinda hard to mistreat programmers/IT folk in general, when you direly need them, especially with china increasingly pushing harder at that front). honestly i just hope i'm long dead before all this shit blows up(if it blows up).
[QUOTE=thisispain;43355280]nothing's stopping me from doing anything, that's not the point. being rich is a matter of circumstance, it's not attained by rehashing "risk" BS like some kind of pastiche of 80's Wall street exec stereotypes.[/QUOTE] Your circumstances are beyond your control? [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Wizards Court;43355350]indeed i'll just leave this here [url]http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/10/04/789523/-Citigroup-s-Shocking-Plutonomy-Reports-h-t-Michael-Moore[/url] i swear some folks in this forum either have bad memory(because this has been posted before several times), or they simply don't care.[/QUOTE] Michael Moore's a rich dude who got rich pretending he gives 2 shits about poor people. He wasn't always rich. He comes from a modest background. Why do you tolerate him but not others who are successful? [QUOTE]the middle class will probably not survive this century(barring massive social changes/revolutions) combined with the shitstorm that is increasing global warming which will drastically affect the poor, its a recipe for disaster.[/QUOTE] Unaugmented Humans probably won't survive this century. Good riddance. [QUOTE]most people don't like to admit, but the reason the "west" gained so many rights to protect the workers of the poor/middle class, was due to the soviet union presenting a very credible threat to the entire idea of capitalism(especially at the early years after WW2, where if the soviets really wanted they would probably be able to steamroll most of europe unchecked, plus the countless socialist movements across the globe rising), now its gone, socialism is essentially dead in the US, [/QUOTE] The US has a $17 trillion federal debt, why? Massive prolonged budget deficit. Why? Massive overspending. Why? Socialist BS. Look at the size of the social security component in that pie chart above. [QUOTE]drastically weakened across most of the globe and last hold of anything even resembling socialism are the nordic states which is also being broken down bit by bit, and there is no reason by corporations to "play nice" anymore.[/QUOTE] They are social democracies, not socialist. They're rich because of private enterprise, and in the case of the Norwegians the luck of finding all that oil. When the state played a bigger role in their economies in the 90's they almost went to the wall. Business thrives in Sweden these days because of a combination of good infrastructure, decent education and low corporate taxes (25% or so) - if you were to put that upto 75% or something insane you could count on one hand the number of months before Sweden went bankrupt, all their business relocating to the UK etc. [QUOTE]the only thing that MIGHT keep a middle class with some degree of voice so to speak, is the drastic rise of the tech sector we've been seeing, which will likely not stop any time soon(kinda hard to mistreat programmers/IT folk in general, when you direly need them, especially with china increasingly pushing harder at that front).[/QUOTE] The middle class has a huge voice. In your wallet, at the ballet box, or just going apeshit in the street with lots of other people. [QUOTE]honestly i just hope i'm long dead before all this shit blows up(if it blows up).[/QUOTE] Why not try to steer the future, and perhaps get rich in the process? :P Beats just being passive and accepting whatever comes along, then complaining about it. [STRIKE]Going to edit this in a min after I finish my poo, I just wanted to comment on Michael Moore. You do realize your working-class hero from Flint, MI is a multi-millionaire? :v:[/STRIKE] [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Helix Snake;43355288]Are you seriously saying that the rising wealth gap is the fault of poor people?[/QUOTE] Everyone plays a role, including the poor. Too many poor people have allowed themselves to get stuck in a rut. Or do the wrong things with their time and money. Why are you watching that "Reality TV" crap and not learning C++, for example, or why are you spending all your money on booze and drugs, and not making a more sensible investment in yourself. Not you personally, but in general... [QUOTE]Every time someone mentions a trend you end up basically saying "well if you're poor it's your fault you're poor stop living in your parent's basement etc." and refusing to see the big picture. People are mentioning things that affect millions of people and when they do you basically attack THEM and tell them that THEY are a failure and it's their fault, as if people are only arguing for themselves.[/QUOTE] Trends like what? Is it some random rich person's fault that people don't apply themselves, or take risks, or have enough fortitude etc?
[quote]Everyone plays a role, including the poor. Too many poor people have allowed themselves to get stuck in a rut. Or do the wrong things with their time and money. Why are you watching that "Reality TV" crap and not learning C++, for example, or why are you spending all your money on booze and drugs, and not making a more sensible investment in yourself. Not you personally, but in general...[/quote] a lot of them are also poor because our government kinda enslaved them and took away their chance to accumulate wealth fairly until 60 years ago telling everyone to save money and earn your way into middle by your own bootstraps is the most naive privileged thing i have ever heard lol
[QUOTE=lolwutdude;43355471]a lot of them are also poor because our government kinda enslaved them and took away their chance to accumulate wealth fairly until 60 years ago telling everyone to save money and earn your way into middle by your own bootstraps is the most naive privileged thing i have ever heard lol[/QUOTE] Funny, I don't know any slaves, but I know several poor people.... Priviledged? Yes, you're right. The government should pay us all to sit at home and chat on here, say, $50,000 a year? EDIT: If you're born with no limbs or some horrible dissability like that, then you probably have a very good excuse for not being rich or even middle-class. But how many people are that unfortunate? [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=lolwutdude;43355471]a lot of them are also poor because our government kinda enslaved them and took away their chance to accumulate wealth fairly until 60 years ago telling everyone to save money and earn your way into middle by your own bootstraps is the most naive privileged thing i have ever heard lol[/QUOTE] How many millionaires or billionaires were there 60 years ago, compared with now? [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;43355280]nothing's stopping me from doing anything, that's not the point. being rich is a matter of circumstance, it's not attained by rehashing "risk" BS like some kind of pastiche of 80's Wall street exec stereotypes.[/QUOTE] Here's some inspiration, hopefully it motivates some people $:) [url]http://www.forbes.com/sites/luisakroll/2013/03/04/inside-the-2013-billionaires-list-facts-and-figures/[/url] Also we need somekind of pro-capitalist emotes pls :)
I get my bread money from the dark blue portion so I'm okay with it. I kinda wonder how many rich guys will leave France.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43355489]Funny, I don't know any slaves, but I know several poor people.... Priviledged? Yes, you're right. The government should pay us all to sit at home and chat on here, say, $50,000 a year?[/QUOTE] have you studied history cause there was like an entire race or more that was considered subhuman and kind of discriminated heavily both by government and private organizations maybe, just maybe, in your opinion, do you think the offsprings of these people were who taken as slaves, segregated into ghettos, and etc. has no circumstances forced upon them for being poor? and way to strawman bro
[QUOTE=kuydna;43355489] Here's some inspiration, hopefully it motivates some people $:) [url]http://www.forbes.com/sites/luisakroll/2013/03/04/inside-the-2013-billionaires-list-facts-and-figures/[/url] Also we need somekind of pro-capitalist emotes pls :)[/QUOTE] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgpa7wEAz7I[/media]
[QUOTE=kuydna;43355359] Unaugmented Humans probably won't survive this century. Good riddance.[/quote] haha, what? you're playing too much deus ex man.
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