• France's 75% tax rate approved by top court after revisions
    513 replies, posted
[QUOTE=kuydna;43355144]Was the wealthy person always wealthy? Do all wealthy people come from rich families? I personally have been homeless; guess what, it's not a death sentence. Recover and try again.[/QUOTE] They weren't always wealthy no, but it's a lot easier for someone to take risks if they have the financial security of a wealthy family backing them up. Yes, strictly speaking, it is at least [I]possible[/I] to recover from being homeless, but comparing that to the difficulty of taking a risk in business when you already have financial security is nonsense.
[QUOTE=lolwutdude;43355609]have you studied history cause there was like an entire race or more that was considered subhuman and kind of discriminated heavily both by government and private organizations maybe, just maybe, in your opinion, do you think the offsprings of these people were who taken as slaves, segregated into ghettos, and etc. has no circumstances forced upon them for being poor?[/QUOTE] Yeah, there is a strong racial bias in the US and the Americas in general when it comes to poverty. This is less prevlanent in Europe however. Plenty of poor white people here. Also, it's almost 2014, African-Americans have many opportunities they didn't have 100, Hell, even 50 years ago. Explain Oprah? The Jacksons? Bill Cosby? Michael Jordan? Obama, and so on....wait lemme find a graph..... While it's not enough, percentage-wise it's still the best improvement of any racial group in the US.... [IMG]http://media.cleveland.com/datacentral/photo/11557889-large.jpg[/IMG] [QUOTE]and way to strawman bro[/QUOTE] ? [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Megafan;43355724]They weren't always wealthy no, but it's a lot easier for someone to take risks if they have the financial security of a wealthy family backing them up. Yes, strictly speaking, it is at least [I]possible[/I] to recover from being homeless, but comparing that to the difficulty of taking a risk in business when you already have financial security is nonsense.[/QUOTE] The wealthy family might put psychological pressures on them to do something at college they don't want to do, instead of sitting in the basement coding 24/7 trying to be the next Notch or what have you, or parents might put pressure on them to follow in their footsteps doing something they don't want... How risky is it though? Start small and grow from your own retained profits. Get venture capital. You don't have to take risk of bank loan defaults or taking 2nd mortgages etc.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43355741]The wealthy family might put psychological pressures on them to do something at college they don't want to do, instead of sitting in the basement coding 24/7 trying to be the next Notch or what have you, or parents might put pressure on them to follow in their footsteps doing something they don't want... How risky is it though? Start small and grow from your own retained profits. Get venture capital. You don't have to take risk of bank loan defaults or taking 2nd mortgages etc.[/QUOTE] Venture capital from where? How is a lower-class poor person (let alone a homeless one) supposed to start up a business? You keep saying "just start one", but how are they supposed to do that?
[QUOTE=Megafan;43355820]Venture capital from where? [/QUOTE] Venture capitalists. [QUOTE]How is a lower-class poor person (let alone a homeless one) supposed to start up a business? You keep saying "just start one", but how are they supposed to do that?[/QUOTE] Be motivated. Identify a product or service that you think there'd be demand for, then do lots of market research. Use the net for research. If they don't have access to it at home, then go to public library. Invest time and energy in it, problem today is too many people expect insant results. Most importantly of all, remember it's ok to make mistakes and even fail. EDIT: as for capital, maybe credit unions IDK, point is there's plenty of people willing to invest in something they think will make them a return; angel investors etc. No loan sharks. Also just how much of the US or French population is homeless? First step for them should be solving their homelessness, or only working on business stuff once they're into somekind of shelter / hostel etc, not on the streets lol. They could also hang out here- [url]http://www.brainyquote.com/[/url] There's much wisdom there :) Also this- [url]https://www.google.co.uk/#q=rags+to+riches+stories&safe=off[/url] The point is, it's upto each one of us what happens, for the most part. You can blame everyone else or expect random rich people to take up the slack, or you can fight back. It's not easy, but nothing truly worthwhile is.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43355872]Be motivated. Identify a product or service that you think there'd be demand for, then do lots of market research. Use the net for research. If they don't have access to it at home, then go to public library. Invest time and energy in it, problem today is too many people expect insant results. Most importantly of all, remember it's ok to make mistakes and even fail. EDIT: as for capital, maybe credit unions IDK, point is there's plenty of people willing to invest in something they think will make them a return; angel investors etc. No loan sharks. Also just how much of the US or French population is homeless? First step for them should be solving their homelessness, or only working on business stuff once they're into somekind of shelter / hostel etc, not on the streets lol. They could also hang out here- [URL]http://www.brainyquote.com/[/URL] There's much wisdom there :)[/QUOTE] Even assuming you could do all this, there's a limit to the amount of openings left in a market. It's not some advice you can give wholesale because not only is there no guarantee it'll work, there's no guarantee that it *can* work given your area of expertise or where you live. And especially if you're some full-time worker on minimum wage, I'm not sure it's reasonable to ask them to do 'market research' and round up venture capital (in the little free time they have) just so they can have the expectation of being able to pay bills or afford food.
thats a stupid idea. if you want to go up the ranks in terms of class, start out learning business skills and gathering connections then climb up the corporate ladder like rich people do. tpain life advice tip 5 [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Megafan;43355936]Even assuming you could do all this, there's a limit to the amount of openings left in a market. It's not some advice you can give wholesale because not only is there no guarantee it'll work, there's no guarantee that it *can* work given your area of expertise or where you live. And especially if you're some full-time worker on minimum wage, I'm not sure it's reasonable to ask them to do 'market research' and round up venture capital (in the little free time they have) just so they can have the expectation of being able to pay bills or afford food.[/QUOTE] someone fumbling about with market research while they're lower-class will likely just end up even poorer.
[QUOTE=Megafan;43355936]Even assuming you could do all this, there's a limit to the amount of openings left in a market. It's not some advice you can give wholesale because not only is there no guarantee it'll work, there's no guarantee that it *can* work given your area of expertise or where you live. [/QUOTE] Do something about your expertise? When is there ever a guarantee about anything remotely non-trivial? [QUOTE]And especially if you're some full-time worker on minimum wage, I'm not sure it's reasonable to ask them to do 'market research' and round up venture capital (in the little free time they have) just so they can have the expectation of being able to pay bills or afford food.[/QUOTE] Evenings, weekends, commute-time, breaks. Might go much further than just paying bills. [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] This too. The value of education and skills cannot be underestimated. But trying to enter into any market without doing any research isn't likely to pay dividends, unless you're lucky. [QUOTE=thisispain;43355941]thats a stupid idea. if you want to go up the ranks in terms of class, start out learning business skills and gathering connections then climb up the corporate ladder like rich people do. tpain life advice tip 5 [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] someone fumbling about with market research while they're lower-class will likely just end up even poorer.[/QUOTE] [editline]30th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=kuydna;43355741]Yeah, there is a strong racial bias in the US and the Americas in general when it comes to poverty. This is less prevlanent in Europe however. Plenty of poor white people here. Also, it's almost 2014, African-Americans have many opportunities they didn't have 100, Hell, even 50 years ago. Explain Oprah? The Jacksons? Bill Cosby? Michael Jordan? Obama, and so on....wait lemme find a graph..... While it's not enough, percentage-wise it's still the best improvement of any racial group in the US.... [IMG]http://media.cleveland.com/datacentral/photo/11557889-large.jpg[/IMG] ? [/QUOTE] so you're saying just because those people succeeded and we just gave them rights ( some people are still alive before the civil rights movement happened btw ), it suddenly undos everything we have done? how do you say there's a strong racial bias then say everyone should get it on with their bootstraps? what the fuck does oppurtunity mean being born into a shit ghetto with high crime rates and no jobs to take through no fault of your own? and what you said about government paying everyone $50,000 is a strawman because i called you out for being a naive privileged person judging other people then you suddenly jumped a whole logical gap then tried to make my argument look like everyone gets paid $50,000 for doing nothing when it's apparent you have no idea how hard it is out there because you probably didn't move out yet we have a high unemployment rate for a reason with a wage that barely pays shit, then you expect them to not ONLY live on that wage but also 'get a better job' as if thats an option im not sure how to break it to you, but life isn't a videogame where once you work enough, you level up and work at better places or get better wages kinda surprising huh???
[QUOTE=kuydna;43355970]Do something about your expertise? When is there ever a guarantee about anything remotely non-trivial? Evenings, weekends, commute-time, breaks. Might go much further than just paying bills.[/QUOTE] What the hell kind of market research can you expect to do during your commute or on breaks? Even on evenings you get home late and are likely exhausted. Weekends you might be able to go to the public library and look up some things, but all this is assuming you have no other responsibilities besides work (spouse, child, pre-existing debt, etc.).
[QUOTE=Megafan;43356013]What the hell kind of market research can you expect to do during your commute or on breaks? Even on evenings you get home late and are likely exhausted. [/QUOTE] Maybe diet isn't helping? Maybe depression is involved? Maybe they need to exercise? [QUOTE]Weekends you might be able to go to the public library and look up some things, but all this is assuming you have no other responsibilities besides work (spouse, child, pre-existing debt, etc.).[/QUOTE] So basically just give up? Or wait, no, hit some rich people with 75% taxes, then what? What do you do with any money left over assuming the funds aren't used entirely to close the deficit a bit?
[QUOTE=kuydna;43356020] So basically just give up? Or wait, no, hit some rich people with 75% taxes, then what? What do you do with any money left over assuming the funds aren't used entirely to close the deficit a bit?[/QUOTE] or use the tax money to fund stronger safety net programs so poor people have an easier time focusing on education like trade schools or universities to move up instead of being stuck on a minimum wage job which is super hard to escape from?
[QUOTE=lolwutdude;43356012]so you're saying just because those people succeeded and we just gave them rights ( some people are still alive before the civil rights movement happened btw ), it suddenly undos everything we have done?[/QUOTE] We can't do anything about the past, or are you proposing the 75% taxes are used to fund somekind of time-travel research institute? [QUOTE]how do you say there's a strong racial bias then say everyone should get it on with their bootstraps? what the fuck does oppurtunity mean being born into a shit ghetto with high crime rates and no jobs to take through no fault of your own?[/QUOTE] As I said it's not easy, but it's do-able. I still fail to see how the huge extra taxes would help in this situation.... [QUOTE]and what you said about government paying everyone $50,000 is a strawman because i called you out for being a naive privileged person judging other people then you suddenly [/QUOTE] Sorry but you know nothing about me or my background. I am not from a wealthy background, and I am not even close to rich now - but will be :) [QUOTE]jumped a whole logical gap then tried to make my argument look like everyone gets paid $50,000 for doing nothing when it's apparent you have no idea how hard it is out there because you probably didn't move out yet[/QUOTE] Oh we're doing the basement-dweller thing are we? I haven't lived at home for 18 years. I mentioned 50k because a lot of people in this thread seem to have an attitude of entitlement. They complain about being poor, yet they're in here posting. [QUOTE]we have a high unemployment rate for a reason with a wage that barely pays shit, then you expect them to not ONLY live on that wage but also 'get a better job' as if thats an option[/QUOTE] Who is "we", the US or France? Unemployment isn't that high in the US, not as bad as Europe anyway, take a look at Spain. No, I don't expect them to live on that wage, I advocate a reasonable minimum wage, which might sound strange coming from me, but, I also see the correlation between skills/education/experience/attitude and income-levels/employability. If you want to escape poverty in a country with shitty, or no, minimum-wage, you need to be made of strong stuff. You need to go to college, you need to teach yourself useful skills in your off-hours (you think Garry was born knowing C++?), you need to put in the hours.....or you can quit/complain. [QUOTE]im not sure how to break it to you, but life isn't a videogame where once you work enough, you level up and work at better places or get better wages kinda surprising huh???[/QUOTE] Hmmmm, did you try the cheatcodes? *jk* Yeah, you need to work smart too. You need to work doing the right thing. 20 years of burger-flipping at McDonalds or delivering the post might not lead anywhere so do something that will ultimately be more profitable. [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=lolwutdude;43356048]or use the tax money to fund stronger safety net programs so poor people have an easier time focusing on education like trade schools or universities to move up instead of being stuck on a minimum wage job which is super hard to escape from?[/QUOTE] IF people demonstrably were using their money that way I'd be sympathetic towards it, but you know that people will try cheating it. They'll claim to be doing xyz, gaining such skills, just to get money, then if it's anything like the UK they'll get infinite warnings about getting their act together. Once their grades dropped or it was proven they weren't applying themselves how would you feel about them losing all their benefits?
[QUOTE=kuydna;43356099]We can't do anything about the past, or are you proposing the 75% taxes are used to fund somekind of time-travel research institute?[/QUOTE] no they can use the tax money to fund safety nets or generally acknowledge that the government has some responsibility over a large amount of povert they caused? are you proposing that its the past therefore nothing should happen? [QUOTE=kuydna;43356099]As I said it's not easy, but it's do-able. I still fail to see how the huge extra taxes would help in this situation....[/QUOTE] a paraplegic dude once swam across an english channel for charity through hard work, therefore any paralegic person saying its incredibly difficult to swim across the channel nevertheless swim due to his circumstances is just lazy and unmotivated thats your logic right there [QUOTE=kuydna;43356099]Sorry but you know nothing about me or my background. I am not from a wealthy background, and I am not even close to rich now - but will be :)[/QUOTE] okay buddy, whatever you say lol [QUOTE=kuydna;43356099]Oh we're doing the basement-dweller thing are we? I haven't lived at home for 18 years.[/QUOTE] definitely!!1 [QUOTE=kuydna;43356099]I mentioned 50k because a lot of people in this thread seem to have an attitude of entitlement. They complain about being poor, yet they're in here posting.[/QUOTE] them posting here has nothing to do with the fact they're asking for the rich to be taxed more because they can afford it? not a single person has said they should be paid $50,000 a year doing nothing, thats a strawman [QUOTE=kuydna;43356099]Who is "we", the US or France? Unemployment isn't that high in the US, not as bad as Europe anyway, take a look at Spain. No, I don't expect them to live on that wage, I advocate a reasonable minimum wage, which might sound strange coming from me, but, I also see the correlation between skills/education/experience/attitude and income-levels/employability. If you want to escape poverty in a country with shitty, or no, minimum-wage, you need to be made of strong stuff. You need to go to college, you need to teach yourself useful skills in your off-hours (you think Garry was born knowing C++?), you need to put in the hours.....or you can quit/complain.[/QUOTE] im talking about it general, we have millions of poor people in the united states who lives off paycheck to paycheck or food stamps thats barely enough, and you think they can go to college or learn coding in your off-hours? why do you keep bringing up garry as if you know his history personally? do you have proof that he was poor and escaped poverty by making a miracle mod like an oscar winning film plot? not to mention you're talking the exceptions, not the norm [QUOTE=kuydna;43356099]Hmmmm, did you try the cheatcodes? *jk* Yeah, you need to work smart too. You need to work doing the right thing. 20 years of burger-flipping at McDonalds or delivering the post might not lead anywhere so do something that will ultimately be more profitable.[/QUOTE] this is what makes me think you didn't move out yet, it takes an extremely ignorant rich kid who never had to work entry paying job in his life or a kid that hasn't met the real world to think that 20 years of burger flipping will magically accumulate enough wealth to go to college or trade school to move up surprise mate, theres a reason why full-time mcdonald workers are instructed by the HR to get foodstamps or welfare, [B][I]they can't afford shit [/I][/B]and you think they can afford and attend college regularly? lol. [QUOTE=kuydna;43356099]IF people demonstrably were using their money that way I'd be sympathetic towards it, but you know that people will try cheating it. They'll claim to be doing xyz, gaining such skills, just to get money, then if it's anything like the UK they'll get infinite warnings about getting their act together. Once their grades dropped or it was proven they weren't applying themselves how would you feel about them losing all their benefits?[/QUOTE] so a minority of people tries to cheat the system therefore we'll have a large threatening number of people using it so we shouldnt do it at all? we should stop people from pressing charges, did you know theres a small minority of people who presses false rape charges??? i think we shouldn't trust every rape victim because of that!
The real way to get poor people out of poverty is to simply make it easier for them to start a business. This is done by giving them a safety net - if you fail, you won't lose your home or whatever. Risk is what is keeping people at their McDonald shifts even after years upon years of barely enough income. I mean, if you have a family to care for, are you really going to risk your whole livelihood? No, you aren't, you'll just keep working your shifts and hope your children do better. What needs to be done is more accessible, free education, free health care and a stable income that you can rely on, even if you lose your job. Make people risk less, and they'll be more likely to take a chance. And your forbes list is simply proof of that a higher tax is needed, not inspiration for doing better. 25% them even inherited whatever business they're making money on.
[QUOTE=lolwutdude;43356202]no they can use the tax money to fund safety nets or generally acknowledge that the government has some responsibility over a large amount of povert they caused? are you proposing that its the past therefore nothing should happen?[/QUOTE] Not sure they caused it, but yeah, they've not done an immense amount to help either. [QUOTE]a paraplegic dude once swam across an english channel for charity through hard work, therefore any paralegic person saying its incredibly difficult to swim across the channel nevertheless swim due to his circumstances is just lazy and unmotivated thats your logic right there okay buddy, whatever you say lol [/QUOTE] Slight exaggeration. [QUOTE] definitely!!1 [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]them posting here has nothing to do with the fact they're asking for the rich to be taxed more because they can afford it? not a single person has said they should be paid $50,000 a year doing nothing, thats a strawman[/QUOTE] Fair enough. But if they had been complaining about their own personal circumstances, you could ask how they can find the time to be on here and not gaining valuable skills. [QUOTE]im talking about it general, we have millions of poor people in the united states who lives off paycheck to paycheck or food stamps thats barely enough, and you think they can go to college or learn coding in your off-hours? [/QUOTE] We get 168 hours a week. The net is essentially free, especially if used from public libraries.... [QUOTE] why do you keep bringing up garry as if you know his history personally? [/QUOTE] Ok, Notch then if you prefer, John Carmack? Steve Jobs? Larry Ellison? They all came from very modest backgrounds and made successes of their lives too. [QUOTE]do you have proof that he was poor and escaped poverty by making a miracle mod like an oscar winning film plot? not to mention you're talking the exceptions, not the norm [/QUOTE] Over the years Garry has repeatedly stated his background; working-class, self-taught, used to earn £10k p.a. in a bike shop, worked for a dating site doing low-level PHP shit, none of this is a big secret. Search garry.tv etc. He then discovered Half Life 2 and started fucking around with the SDK one night "instead of having a wank" or words to that effect lol, which then caught the public's imagination and he kept adding features to it, oh and making sure he kept ahead of JBMod. So not poverty, but not middle-class either. No rich family to provide a safety net. Who else, Jobs? Notch? Gates, well, maybe not him he came from upper middle-class background :P [QUOTE] this is what makes me think you didn't move out yet, it takes an extremely ignorant rich kid who never had to work entry paying job in his life or a kid that hasn't met the real world to think that 20 years of burger flipping will magically accumulate enough wealth to go to college or trade school to move up[/QUOTE] *sighs* I said the complete opposite, that burger-flipping will get you nowhere! [QUOTE] surprise mate, theres a reason why full-time mcdonald workers are instructed by the HR to get foodstamps or welfare, [B][I]they can't afford shit [/I][/B]and you think they can afford and attend college regularly? lol. [/QUOTE] Dunno how the US system works, but I do know in the UK you can borrow metric shitloads of money as an undergraduate, only needing to worry about repayment once you've graduated and are earning over a certain amount. [QUOTE] so a minority of people tries to cheat the system therefore we'll have a large threatening number of people using it so we shouldnt do it at all? we should stop people from pressing charges, did you know theres a small minority of people who presses false rape charges??? i think we shouldn't trust every rape victim because of that![/QUOTE] Still you don't need to tax at 75% to pay for it - 55% is more than enough, maybe too much. Do you really think government can't reallocate it's existing resources? That they're not wasting anything? That they're spending too little on defence or other stuff? Not only that, but how long is it going to take for these opportunities to arise? Knowing politicians we're in for a very long wait so it makes sense to take things into our own hands in the meantime, does it not? The whole point of me wading into this thread wasn't because of feeling sorry for rich people but because there's a dangerous anti-capitalist rhetoric becoming increasingly popular in the Western world. [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=GoDong-DK;43356290]The real way to get poor people out of poverty is to simply make it easier for them to start a business. This is done by giving them a safety net - if you fail, you won't lose your home or whatever. Risk is what is keeping people at their McDonald shifts even after years upon years of barely enough income. [/QUOTE] Or laziness / lack of talent / lack of confidence? [QUOTE] I mean, if you have a family to care for, are you really going to risk your whole livelihood? No, you aren't, you'll just keep working your shifts and hope your children do better. What needs to be done is more accessible, free education, free health care and a stable income that you can rely on, even if you lose your job. Make people risk less, and they'll be more likely to take a chance.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]And your forbes list is simply proof of that a higher tax is needed, not inspiration for doing better. [/QUOTE] As already stated they'll just creatively dodge the tax. In the UK there's tens of billions of £ per year not being paid and that's at current rates - increase by 30% or more and see what happens. Read about the Laffer Curve. You need to have an optimum level of taxation, it doesn't always follow that higher rates equal more revenue. [QUOTE]25% them even inherited whatever business they're making money on.[/QUOTE] Meaning 75% didn't. [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=zakedodead;43355134]The dark blue on this chart I stole from wikipedia is pretty much the only legitimate criticism of higher percentage tax brackets. And even then I'm not sure how relevant it is to france. [IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2b/U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2011.png[/IMG][/QUOTE] These are the UK numbers, I can tell you at least a few hundred billion of that is essentially being flushed down the toilet.... [IMG]http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/3/20/1363800264587/Budget-spending-and-tax-r-001.jpg[IMG]
[QUOTE=kuydna;43356329] Or laziness / lack of talent / lack of confidence? [/quote] There's a reason why Denmark's doing great while having one of the highest tax rates on earth. [quote] As already stated they'll just creatively dodge the tax. In the UK there's tens of billions of £ per year not being paid and that's at current rates - increase by 30% or more and see what happens. [/quote] "Don't make it illegal, criminals will do it anyway!" That's a bad argument, and there's no reason not to make it harder to cheat in taxes. And you admit that the rich in many cases already are paying less in taxes than poor people? Why are you defending them, then? Rich people stay on top by using their position to keep other people down - look at the super pacs and lobbies in the US, it's completely ridiculous. [quote] Read about the Laffer Curve. You need to have an optimum level of taxation, it doesn't always follow that higher rates equal more revenue. [/quote] I don't really have time to read about that, but I'll take your word for it. I don't know whether 75% is the optimal taxation, but I don't think it's "unfair". [quote] Meaning 75% didn't.[/QUOTE] Meaning 25% did? And again, the amount of money these people have is completely ludicrous, some of them have what equals a small country's GNP.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;43356417]There's a reason why Denmark's doing great while having one of the highest tax rates on earth. [/QUOTE] Doesn't seem that great.... [URL]http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=da&v=66[/URL] Here's the numbers for some capitalist countries: [URL]http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=ks&v=66[/URL] [URL]http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=sn&v=66[/URL] [URL]http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=tw&v=66[/URL] [QUOTE] "Don't make it illegal, criminals will do it anyway!" That's a bad argument, and there's no reason not to make it harder to cheat in taxes. And you admit that the rich in many cases already are paying less in taxes than poor people? Why are you defending them, then? Rich people stay on top by using their position to keep other people down - look at the super pacs and lobbies in the US, it's completely ridiculous. [/QUOTE] In the US and UK it's political suicide to talk about increasing taxes, even against the rich. [QUOTE] I don't really have time to read about that, but I'll take your word for it. I don't know whether 75% is the optimal taxation, but I don't think it's "unfair". [/QUOTE] lol, I bet you would if you were presented with the tax bill :) [QUOTE]Meaning 25% did? And again, the amount of money these people have is completely ludicrous, some of them have what equals a small country's GNP.[/QUOTE] What gives you the right to decide how much someone should or shouldn't have? [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Wizards Court;43355646]haha, what? you're playing too much deus ex man.[/QUOTE] Dude it's totally gonna happen [URL]www.kurzweilai.net[/URL]
[QUOTE=kuydna;43356505] In the US and UK it's political suicide to talk about increasing taxes, even against the rich. [/QUOTE] Only because people seem to believe the same tripe you seem to believe The people in the UK seem to always want better services but don't want to pay for them because they're stupid.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43356505]Doesn't seem that great.... [URL]http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=da&v=66[/URL] Here's the numbers for some capitalist countries: [URL]http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=ks&v=66[/URL] [URL]http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=sn&v=66[/URL] [URL]http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=tw&v=66[/URL] [/quote] Cherrypick all you want, Denmark's curve looks exactly like the US's, and we're at almost double the tax rate. At the same time we don't near the same amount of poor people, and while I can't check the income equality on that website, I'll tell you it's much better in Denmark. And fun fact - the whole world took a dip because of the financial crisis, and we had a liberal government from 2000 to 2010. [quote] In the US and UK it's political suicide to talk about increasing taxes, even against the rich. [/quote] Sure, that's a problem with the US system right now - the rich have way too much power, because they're the ones paying for the presidential race. I don't know as much about GB, but I assume the rich are the people sitting in the house, and we have the daily mail to spread lies about all the money going to immigrants and welfare queens. [quote] lol, I bet you would if you were presented with the tax bill :) [/quote] If I earned that much money, I don't think I'd care. The Danish state does so much for the population it's not even funny. [quote] What gives you the right to decide how much someone should or shouldn't have?[/QUOTE] I don't know - the democratic right?
[QUOTE=kuydna;43356505] Dude it's totally gonna happen [URL]www.kurzweilai.net[/URL][/QUOTE] Sure it is
[QUOTE=kuydna;43354910]Change jobs? Start a business? Improve their education/training? Also plenty of rich people working round the clock.[/QUOTE] Change jobs? What if they can't find a better paying job? Start a business? How if they are barely making ends meet? Improve their education/training? How fast is that going to be with the fact that they need to work 60+ hours a week and where are they getting the money to do so? Lets do some time management. 168 hours in a week 60 hours of work + 56 hours of sleep = 116 hours So that leaves 52 hours for everything else. So in that 52 hours, they have to not only take care of all of your other responsibilites, you need to also also find some time for fun (if you don't you go fucking insane), and do all of the training or starting a buisness. 52 hours is not a lot of time to divide up into so many things. Also the difference between a rich person working 60+ hours a week and a poor person working 60+ hours a week is that the rich person had a choice to work that much.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;43356616] The people in the UK seem to always want better services but don't want to pay for them because they're stupid.[/QUOTE] That's something we can agree on.
If i was in france and i was rich? i would be flying the fuck out on my private jet ASAP And don't deny you wouldn't be too, anyone who has money wants to keep it. Besides, Tax is essentially about paying for your use in the governments services, some rich people might not used much of the government services, i dont see why the rich people should have to pay for someone else's use really.
[QUOTE=nuttyboffin;43356755]If i was in france and i was rich? i would be flying the fuck out on my private jet ASAP And don't deny you wouldn't be too, anyone who has money wants to keep it.[/QUOTE] France is a beautiful place, and even rich people have friends where they live, you know - I don't think they'll just pack up and leave for wherever.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;43356617]Cherrypick all you want, [/QUOTE] I picked those countries because they're examples of VERY rich, fast-growing economies that outperform pretty much anyone in the West. They are pretty much the antithesis of Denmark when it comes to state spending. [QUOTE]Denmark's curve looks exactly like the US's, and we're at almost double the tax rate. [/QUOTE] The US is in a bit of a mess. But it has a good habit of being at the cutting edge. Silicon Valley for example. Why do companies like Google never appear in Europe? [QUOTE]At the same time we don't near the same amount of poor people, and while I can't check the income equality on that website, I'll tell you it's much better in Denmark. [/QUOTE] For top link, the lower the number, the more equal: [url]https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2172.html#br[/url] [url]https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2046.html#da[/url] [QUOTE]And fun fact - the whole world took a dip because of the financial crisis, and we had a liberal government from 2000 to 2010. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Sure, that's a problem with the US system right now - the rich have way too much power, because they're the ones paying for the presidential race. I don't know as much about GB, but I assume the rich are the people sitting in the house, and we have the daily mail to spread lies about all the money going to immigrants and welfare queens. [/QUOTE] Why does everyone hate the Daily Mail, nothing wrong with it, IMO. I never see xenophobic stuff whenever I look at it. [QUOTE]If I earned that much money, I don't think I'd care. The Danish state does so much for the population it's not even funny.[/QUOTE] You think that's healthy? Maybe it might "soften" a population? Also the quality of state services seems much better in Scandinavia than the US or UK. They're ridiculously incompetent here and turning on the money taps doesn't seem to make much difference. [QUOTE]I don't know - the democratic right?[/QUOTE] What about their democratic right to keep the money they earned? [editline]30th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=GoDong-DK;43356765]France is a beautiful place, and even rich people have friends where they live, you know - I don't think they'll just pack up and leave for wherever.[/QUOTE] That's what teleconferencing is for - especially if you combine it with Oculus Rift :P
[QUOTE=SPESSMEHREN;43346241]Taxing high earners more is still unfair because it punishes people for being successful though.[/QUOTE]People who get a shitton of money get it thanks to the systems set up. If the rest of society weren't there, they wouldn't get their heaps of cash.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43356790]I picked those countries because they're examples of VERY rich, fast-growing economies that outperform pretty much anyone in the West. They are pretty much the antithesis of Denmark when it comes to state spending. [/quote] I won't pretend to know loads about the Singaporean economy, but the fact of the matter is that Denmark is doing pretty darn well, and most importantly everyone is doing quite well. To my knowledge, Singapore has only recently begun to grow that much, and it's growth seems from the chart to be [I]very[/I] dependent on what the US and the like are doing. Denmark is as well, but if you look at the growth dip in 2009 Singapore went from 7.7 to -1.3 in 2 years, and then to 14.5%. Might be a capitalist paradise, but it doesn't seem all that stable to me - at least yet. [quote] The US is in a bit of a mess. But it has a good habit of being at the cutting edge. Silicon Valley for example. Why do companies like Google never appear in Europe? [/quote] Because the European economy isn't as large? We have companies like Mærsk and Vestas here in Denmark, and Nokia in Finland, etc. I suppose the laws in America is more lenient and thus better for big corporations? That isn't necessarily better for the populace, though. [quote] [url]https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/fields/2046.html#da[/url] [/quote] Ehh, people under the poverty line doesn't say anything about income equality - especially when the poverty line varies from country to country. The rich in Denmark isn't as rich as the rich people in Singepore and the US, and the poor people aren't as poor as the poor people in those countries. [quote] Why does everyone hate the Daily Mail, nothing wrong with it, IMO. I never see xenophobic stuff whenever I look at it. [/quote] Then you're either blind or xenophobic. [quote] You think that's healthy? Maybe it might "soften" a population? Also the quality of state services seems much better in Scandinavia than the US or UK. They're ridiculously incompetent here and turning on the money taps doesn't seem to make much difference. [/quote] Yeah, I think it's healthy. We have great schools, roads, health care, etc. I'd rather pay the state for health care than a private firm that needs to turn profits. [quote] What about their democratic right to keep the money they earned? [/quote] That's not a democratic right, though? You have the right of keeping your property, but you'll have to pay taxes whether you want to or not. [quote] That's what teleconferencing is for - especially if you combine it with Oculus Rift :P[/QUOTE] Joke of the year.
[QUOTE=nuttyboffin;43356755]some rich people might not used much of the government services, i dont see why the rich people should have to pay for someone else's use really.[/QUOTE] Rich people use government services more than anyone else
[QUOTE=James*;43357111]Rich people use government services more than anyone else[/QUOTE] Lol what?
Fucking lol alot of people need to learn how taxes work
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