France's 75% tax rate approved by top court after revisions
513 replies, posted
[QUOTE=James*;43357111]Rich people use government services more than anyone else[/QUOTE]
Hardly, they dont use public healthcare, they use private schools usually for their kids etc etc
[QUOTE=nuttyboffin;43357498]Hardly, they dont use public healthcare, they use private schools usually for their kids etc etc[/QUOTE]
You are only considering a fairly narrow range of services
What about government infrastructure? Government regulated markets?
There's no such thing as a 'self-made' millionaire
[editline]30th December 2013[/editline]
And those services you did mention will be used by their employees, who they need to get rich in the first place. You can't run a business without an educated/healthy workforce
[QUOTE=James*;43357554]You are only considering a fairly narrow range of services
What about government infrastructure? Government regulated markets?
There's no such thing as a 'self-made' millionaire
[editline]30th December 2013[/editline]
And those services you did mention will be used by their employees, who they need to get rich in the first place. You can't run a business without an educated/healthy workforce[/QUOTE]
Yes, but the workers are already paying their fair share, thats what tax is, you pay for what you use, because so many people use the same stuff, they use a generallized, standardized rule so as to save money instead of caluclating 100's of millions of people's use of government services.
[QUOTE=nuttyboffin;43357728]Yes, but the workers are already paying their fair share, thats what tax is, you pay for what you use, because so many people use the same stuff, they use a generallized, standardized rule so as to save money instead of caluclating 100's of millions of people's use of government services.[/QUOTE]
Partly, but tax is also redistributive. People who don't earn enough to pay any tax at all are still entitled to have access to services. Not just for convenience-sake either, but because it's seen as morally right.
And education and healthcare are social goods, their direct recipients aren't the only beneficiaries.
[QUOTE=nuttyboffin;43357498]Hardly, they dont use public healthcare, they use private schools usually for their kids etc etc[/QUOTE]
its like the government only provides two services and rich people use.... niether????
it's almost as if workplaces would be happy if none of their employees had schooling or healthcare. productivity would go up 1000%!
(they wouldnt be happy)
[QUOTE=Aurastorm;43357917]its like the government only provides two services and rich people use.... niether????
it's almost as if workplaces would be happy if none of their employees had schooling or healthcare. productivity would go up 1000%!
(they wouldnt be happy)[/QUOTE]
I guess you are right in that perspective, however 75% is still very rediculous, mabye the government should stop spending as much.
[QUOTE=nuttyboffin;43358096]I guess you are right in that perspective, however 75% is still very rediculous, mabye the government should stop spending as much.[/QUOTE]
I'd be more supportive of this logic if it didn't almost always lead to "let's cut things that the lower and middle class rely on, like social security, unemployment, welfare, public transportation or education, etc." and "some people are cheating off welfare, that means no one should be allowed to have it"
People usually don't outright say that but in government that's what always happens. The most wasteful spending is the spending that powerful contractors with lobbyists are profiting on and therefore the spending that never gets cut.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43355872]Venture capitalists.[/QUOTE]
Getting VC is not as simple as doing market research and then sending an email saying "gibe mone plox". Getting VC's attention and trust is hard to do even if you do have a good business model.
[QUOTE=SPESSMEHREN;43346241]Taxing high earners more is still unfair because it punishes people for being successful though.[/QUOTE]
Dear god, bro. It's like you actually BELIEVE all the bullshit that US corporations have been spewing for decades.
[QUOTE=archangel125;43358777]Dear god, bro. It's like you actually BELIEVE all the bullshit that US corporations have been spewing for decades.[/QUOTE]
What is it with Canadians and communism anyway? :v:
:>
[editline]30th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=OogalaBoogal;43358339]Getting VC is not as simple as doing market research and then sending an email saying "gibe mone plox". Getting VC's attention and trust is hard to do even if you do have a good business model.[/QUOTE]
Mug them.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43359007]Mug them.[/QUOTE]
yeah okay ill get on that
do you even run a business??
[QUOTE=nuttyboffin;43358096]I guess you are right in that perspective, however 75% is still very rediculous,[B] mabye the government should stop spending as much[/B].[/QUOTE]
This is just awful. This is hardly a reason to lower tax rates, the government in most progressive countries is there to provide safety nets for individuals who cannot make it big due to circumstance or institutional problems. Cutting taxes and telling the governments "lmao, stop spending money fgts" doesn't do anything but disadvantage the unlucky majority of citizens who rely on the government for services like healthcare, security and provision of basic needs.
Taxing >1m earnings at 75% would allow for the government to expand these services, pushing more people into education through easier economic access (with enough money, tuition fees, hell maybe even student loans, would be a thing of the past). Ensuring healthcare is available for any and all ailments, providing the homeless somewhere to sleep, and so forth. Most of the rich don't earn >1m income yearly, and the ones that do are still going to receive a majority of their income. If they could see the help tax money does to the lower classes, rather than what the media wants them and everyone else to see, I'm sure they'd care a lot less about higher tax rates.
To help, I've constructed this lovely little thing (I actually put some time in trying to make it right, if there are problems, point them out). This should be excluding the money from the last tax bracket in it's calculation.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/HgY8P69.png[/img]
Notice how with a flat tax, the poor guy gets totally fucked over? The rich guy is still rich, but everybody else loses a noticeable amount of money. Now look at the tiered tax, the rich guys are, surprise surprise, still rich. As they start earning over 1m obviously they start getting less back from it, but they still get a majority of their income through.
[editline]30th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=kuydna;43359007]What is it with Canadians and communism anyway? :v:
:>[/QUOTE]
This isn't "Communism" you total dunce.
[QUOTE=OogalaBoogal;43359065]yeah okay ill get on that
do you even run a business??[/QUOTE]
NOT YET. Have you even worked a single day in your life?
[editline]30th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=hexpunk] hell maybe even student loans, would be a thing of the past).[/QUOTE]
Yeah that's just what the UK needs Einstein, more students goofing off for 3 or 4 years than they do now.
[editline]30th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE]This isn't "Communism" you total dunce.[/QUOTE]
Someone has no sense of humour, also reported for flaming. There's no need to become abusive just because your argument has no legs of its own - typical left-wing tactic.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43359512]NOT YET. Have you even worked a single day in your life?[/QUOTE]
So, like. If you've never run a business yet, how are you able to comment on the complexities involved in actually getting ahead in life? Sure you could read articles and shit, but a lot of those are written by people who have either had tons of success and think their luck applies to everyone, or those who failed horribly and want to warn people against certain mistakes.
Having worked quite a few days in my life (years) in a low paying job as that was all that was accessible at the time, I can safely say that if you are stuck in one of these jobs with no signs of promotion or outside influences, you're pretty damn stuck. No amount of bootstrap pulling is going to get you millions. Only pure luck and chance.
[editline]30th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=kuydna;43359512]Yeah that's just what the UK needs Einstein, more students goofing off for 3 or 4 years than they do now.[/quote]
Oh yeah, yeah, let's just force all our skilled labour into those who can afford to not work for a few years whilst they study. That totally sounds sustainable.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43359512]Someone has no sense of humour, also reported for flaming. There's no need to become abusive just because your argument has no legs of its own - typical left-wing tactic.[/QUOTE]
lmao. come back to me when you've faced the remotest of hardships.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43359512]NOT YET. Have you even worked a single day in your life?
[editline]30th December 2013[/editline]
Yeah that's just what the UK needs Einstein, more students goofing off for 3 or 4 years than they do now.
[editline]30th December 2013[/editline]
Someone has no sense of humour, also reported for flaming. There's no need to become abusive just because your argument has no legs of its own - typical left-wing tactic.[/QUOTE]
are you 15
[QUOTE=kuydna;43359512]NOT YET. Have you even worked a single day in your life?
[editline]30th December 2013[/editline]
Yeah that's just what the UK needs Einstein, more students goofing off for 3 or 4 years than they do now.
[editline]30th December 2013[/editline]
Someone has no sense of humour, also reported for flaming. There's no need to become abusive just because your argument has no legs of its own - typical left-wing tactic.[/QUOTE]
I think we can confirm this guy as a troll at this point.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;43359595]So, like. If you've never run a business yet, how are you able to comment on the complexities involved in actually getting ahead in life? Sure you could read articles and shit, but a lot of those are written by people who have either had tons of success and think their luck applies to everyone, or those who failed horribly and want to warn people against certain mistakes.
Having worked quite a few days in my life (years) in a low paying job as that was all that was accessible at the time, I can safely say that if you are stuck in one of these jobs with no signs of promotion or outside influences, you're pretty damn stuck. No amount of bootstrap pulling is going to get you millions. Only pure luck and chance.
[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry you feel that way. While there is undoubtedly some element of luck involved to say, "pure luck and chance" is completely foolish.
[editline]30th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE]Oh yeah, yeah, let's just force all our skilled labour into those who can afford to not work for a few years whilst they study. That totally sounds sustainable.[/QUOTE]
Why the fuck should people subsidize students in the UK to go out drinking everynight, to essentially photocopy their coursework for each other, to cram 24/7 for a few days before each exam after an entire term of fucking about, to go on a useless course that there's no demand for, to take it at a shit uni that no employer takes seriously???
Have you not heard about all the employers in this country who constantly tell the DTI about how fed up they are getting graduates who can barely string a sentence together or handle basic numeracy!?
[QUOTE]lmao. come back to me when you've faced the remotest of hardships.[/QUOTE]
You know fuck all about me - ever been homeless? That's the tip of the iceberg of shit I've had to tolerate in life. I'm not conversing with you anymore, you make too many idiotic assumptions and wild generalizations.
[editline]30th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;43360287]I think we can confirm this guy as a troll at this point.[/QUOTE]
Typical libtard tactic, when your own argument has been defeated you resort to crude insults and attempts at censorship.
[editline]30th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=hexpunK;43359412]This is just awful. This is hardly a reason to lower tax rates, the government in most progressive countries is there to provide safety nets for individuals who cannot make it big due to circumstance or institutional problems. Cutting taxes and telling the governments "lmao, stop spending money fgts" doesn't do anything but disadvantage the unlucky majority of citizens who rely on the government for services like healthcare, security and provision of basic needs.
Taxing >1m earnings at 75% would allow for the government to expand these services, pushing more people into education through easier economic access (with enough money, tuition fees, hell maybe even student loans, would be a thing of the past). Ensuring healthcare is available for any and all ailments, providing the homeless somewhere to sleep, and so forth. Most of the rich don't earn >1m income yearly, and the ones that do are still going to receive a majority of their income. If they could see the help tax money does to the lower classes, rather than what the media wants them and everyone else to see, I'm sure they'd care a lot less about higher tax rates.
To help, I've constructed this lovely little thing (I actually put some time in trying to make it right, if there are problems, point them out). This should be excluding the money from the last tax bracket in it's calculation.
[img]http://i.imgur.com/HgY8P69.png[/img]
Notice how with a flat tax, the poor guy gets totally fucked over? The rich guy is still rich, but everybody else loses a noticeable amount of money. Now look at the tiered tax, the rich guys are, surprise surprise, still rich. As they start earning over 1m obviously they start getting less back from it, but they still get a majority of their income through.
[editline]30th December 2013[/editline]
This isn't "Communism" you total dunce.[/QUOTE]
Keep dreaming your fantasy, no, nightmare, of 75% tax is never going to happen in the US or UK and it isn't going to last in France. Read the thread this has already been done to death hence my minimal answers, you don't deserve a repetition of everything I've already said just because you made a cute little spreadsheet - read the fucking thread.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43360330]I'm not conversing with you anymore, you make too many idiotic assumptions and wild generalizations.[/QUOTE]
Like these?
[Quote]NOT YET. Have you even worked a single day in your life?[/quote]
[Quote]Yeah that's just what the UK needs Einstein, more students goofing off for 3 or 4 years than they do now.[/quote]
[Quote]What is it with Canadians and communism anyway?
:>[/quote]
[Quote]lol, I bet you would if you were presented with the tax bill :)
[/quote]
[Quote]Probably because some people when they can live in their parents basement and off welfare they eventually forget how hard it is to make the money in the first place.[/quote]
[Quote]Why do you feel the need to be so entitled? Someone is better off than me, so they should be taxed to death.
Instead of hating people who are better off than you, why not try emulating them?[/quote]
[QUOTE=kuydna;43360330]You know fuck all about me - ever been homeless? That's the tip of the iceberg of shit I've had to tolerate in life. I'm not conversing with you anymore, you make too many idiotic assumptions and wild generalizations.[/QUOTE]
Okay, assuming you aren't fucking with me, you've got me there. And I'm sorry for that assumption. But to be honest, with the attitude you have it was a relatively safe assumption to make.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43360330]I'm sorry you feel that way. While there is undoubtedly some element of luck involved to say, "pure luck and chance" is completely foolish.[/quote]
So what are you trying to say here? That any old person can make millions? Because we know that isn't possible, let alone sustainable. The only reason I have seen the remotest part of success (such as actually making it to uni) is thanks to various social support schemes offered by the government. Facing homelessness more than once as a kid whilst mum was out of work. Having no "extra" income to put aside for my education leaving me to rely on government subsidised student loans and schemes. And pure dumb luck that I have the aptitude to actually go forward with this path.
Tell me, how is one meant to make something of themselves with no help from anyone? If they have no money, no support from family or government. How are they meant to even begin obtaining the skills needed to get rich?
[QUOTE=kuydna;43360330]Why the fuck should people subsidize students in the UK to go out drinking everynight, to essentially photocopy their coursework for each other, to cram 24/7 for a few days before each exam after an entire term of fucking about, to go on a useless course that there's no demand for, to take it at a shit uni that no employer takes seriously???[/quote]
And you know nothing of student life apparently. Rich coming from a guy telling me I make too many assumptions. What you described are shit students, if they were to "essentially photocopy" their work, they get charged with plagiarism and barred from re-entering unis should it be severe enough. They get the book thrown at them. I know, I've seen it happen.
As for going out all the time drinking, only the fucking arts students get that liberty. Anyone doing a STEM subject has very little free time once they pass their first year. Currently I have had to give up almost all of my holiday time to catch up on work for a project that makes up around 60% of my degree thanks to having too much work in the last semester alone to work on this project reasonably.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43360330] Have you not heard about all the employers in this country who constantly tell the DTI about how fed up they are getting with graduates who can barely string a sentence together or handle basic numeracy!?[/QUOTE]
What graduates are we talking about here? Because most students in STEM subjects at least know enough maths for their subject by the end of it.
[editline]30th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=kuydna;43360330]Typical libtard tactic, when your own argument has been defeated you resort to crude insults and attempts at censorship.[/quote]
lmao.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43360330]Keep dreaming your fantasy, no, nightmare, of 75% tax is never going to happen in the US or UK and it isn't going to last in France. Read the thread this has already been done to death hence my minimal answers, you don't deserve a repetition of everything I've already said just because you made a cute little spreadsheet - read the fucking thread.[/QUOTE]
go complain about immigrants or something gramps.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43360330]
Keep dreaming your fantasy, no, nightmare, of 75% tax is never going to happen in the US or UK and it isn't going to last in France. Read the thread this has already been done to death hence my minimal answers, you don't deserve a repetition of everything I've already said just because you made a cute little spreadsheet - read the fucking thread.[/QUOTE]
If labour can get in and revive socialist feelings then we may very well see something similar to the 75% tax (this is 75% of everything over 1 million by the way, not just a straight 75% tax)
Greedy millionaires can pay a little extra and help support the country that lets them be rich in the first place.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;43360487]If labour can get in and revive socialist feelings then we may very well see something similar to the 75% tax (this is 75% of everything over 1 million by the way, not just a straight 75% tax)
Greedy millionaires can pay a little extra and help support the country that lets them be rich in the first place.[/QUOTE]
If it was a 75% flat tax, yeah it'd be stupid. But it's a 75% tax on excess earnings over 1m. That still barely hurts your income as a rich guy. If you were so desperate to keep as much of it as possible, you could easily pay yourself less and use a few workarounds with shares to gain money.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;43360505]If it was a 75% flat tax, yeah it'd be stupid. But it's a 75% tax on excess earnings over 1m. That still barely hurts your income as a rich guy. If you were so desperate to keep as much of it as possible, you could easily pay yourself less and use a few workarounds with shares to gain money.[/QUOTE]
They're still going to have plenty of money to invest in things even after the tax, it won't even dent their life styles, they'll just have to settle for better public services over a 4th mansion
[QUOTE=hexpunK;43360469]Okay, assuming you aren't fucking with me, you've got me there. And I'm sorry for that assumption. But to be honest, with the attitude you have it was a relatively safe assumption to make.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
So what are you trying to say here? That any old person can make millions?
[/QUOTE]
Probably not you, no, sorry. People with the right attitude and some dose of luck.
[QUOTE]Because we know that isn't possible, let alone sustainable. The only reason I have seen the remotest part of success (such as actually making it to uni) is thanks to various social support schemes offered by the government. Facing homelessness more than once as a kid whilst mum was out of work. Having no "extra" income to put aside for my education leaving me to rely on government subsidised student loans and schemes. And pure dumb luck that I have the aptitude to actually go forward with this path.[/QUOTE]
Loans which don't have to be repaid until you've GRADUATED and are earning above a certain threshold!
[QUOTE]Tell me, how is one meant to make something of themselves with no help from anyone? If they have no money, no support from family or government. How are they meant to even begin obtaining the skills needed to get rich?
[/QUOTE]
Internet, libraries, books, courses....
[QUOTE]And you know nothing of student life apparently. Rich coming from a guy telling me I make too many assumptions. What you described are shit students, if they were to "essentially photocopy" their work, they get charged with plagiarism
[/QUOTE]
We didn't.
Also I didn't, even though at one point I handed in a totally unedited photocopy of someone else's work. Not proud of myself but everyone else was doing it and it was the authorities job to stop things like that. Yes it was a shit uni but aren't most of them here?
[QUOTE]and barred from re-entering unis should it be severe enough. They get the book thrown at them. I know, I've seen it happen.
As for going out all the time drinking, only the fucking arts students get that liberty. Anyone doing a STEM subject has very little free time once they pass their first year. Currently I have had to give up almost all of my holiday time to catch up on work for a project that makes up around 60% of my degree thanks to having too much work in the last semester alone to work on this project reasonably.
What graduates are we talking about here? Because most students in STEM subjects at least know enough maths for their subject by the end of it.
[/QUOTE]
Ask the DTI and British employers. It's something I found to be endemic when I was a student.
[editline]30th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE]
lmao.
go complain about immigrants or something gramps.[/QUOTE]
Now you're accusing me of racism/xenophobia?
[QUOTE=kuydna;43359512]NOT YET. Have you even worked a single day in your life?[/QUOTE]
Come at me. I own my own company, and have worked at multiple startups. Stop spewing BS you know nothing about.
[QUOTE=OogalaBoogal;43360615]Come at me. I own my own company, and have worked at multiple startups. Stop spewing BS you know nothing about.[/QUOTE]
Ok, start paying 75% tax......do it.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43360626]Ok, start paying 75% tax......do it.[/QUOTE]
Sure! Because you know why? I love my province and I love my country.
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;43360537]They're still going to have plenty of money to invest in things even after the tax, it won't even dent their life styles, they'll just have to settle for better public services over a 4th mansion[/QUOTE]
Wrong. It wouldn't put a dent in YOUR lifestyle. Those whose budgets and accounting is done based on a salary in excess of 1 million will now have to basically re-do their finances so they can reach whatever goals they have.
People make it sound like rich people just sit around raking in cash, and it's extremely naive. The majority of rich people have goals and such that they are working towards. You are basically telling them that because they live better, that their goals are null and void and they should just deal with it and pay more than their fair share for public services. I'm not trying to defend the rich, just put a little perspective into it. All poor can't help their situations, and all rich people aren't scrooges who hoard money. Both sides need to be realistic here.
[QUOTE=OogalaBoogal;43360635]Sure! Because you know why? I love my province and I love my country.[/QUOTE]
Make sure you provide documentary evidence for us all, then lets see how long you can sustain it.
[editline]30th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;43360537]They're still going to have plenty of money to invest in things even after the tax, it won't even dent their life styles, they'll just have to settle for better public services over a 4th mansion[/QUOTE]
People make it sound like it'd raise hundreds of billions, a total panacea.
[editline]30th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=carcarcargo;43360487]If labour can get in and revive socialist feelings then we may very well see something similar to the 75% tax (this is 75% of everything over 1 million by the way, not just a straight 75% tax)
Greedy millionaires can pay a little extra and help support the country that lets them be rich in the first place.[/QUOTE]
The Laffer Curve. As already stated. They will do everything they can to avoid paying 75% on anything, even on the 100th million. It's totally impractical.
[editline]30th December 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=hexpunK;43360505]If it was a 75% flat tax, yeah it'd be stupid. But it's a 75% tax on excess earnings over 1m. That still barely hurts your income as a rich guy. If you were so desperate to keep as much of it as possible, you could easily pay yourself less and use a few workarounds with shares to gain money.[/QUOTE]
Are you serious!? What if your income is 2m?
[QUOTE=kuydna;43360671]Make sure you provide documentary evidence for us all, then lets see how long you can sustain it.
[editline]30th December 2013[/editline]
People make it sound like it'd raise hundreds of billions, a total panacea.
[editline]30th December 2013[/editline]
The Laffer Curve. As already stated. They will do everything they can to avoid paying 75% on anything, even on the 100th million. It's totally impractical.[/QUOTE]
Not getting doxxed today thank you very much.
My government does so so much for small business, from amazing grants to tax breaks. It wouldn't feel fair not to give back what I've taken.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43360602]Probably not you, no, sorry. People with the right attitude and some dose of luck.[/quote]
Oh boy, here's the assumption train again! You just can't stop yourself can you?
[QUOTE=kuydna;43360602]Loans which don't have to be repaid until you've GRADUATED and are earning above a certain threshold![/quote]
Right, so loans that are going to cut in to my finances hardcore for a few years of my life (I'm prepared for it to be honest), and basically hang up my goals until I either get a high enough salary to pay it off quickly or live like I am currently to make up for it (more than willing to do this to be honest).
[QUOTE=kuydna;43360602]Internet, libraries, books, courses....[/quote]
Someone is working a 40+ hour week, their time left is spent cooking, unwinding a bit after work, looking after their property, etc. Where do they get the time to spend in courses? If they are living close to the poverty line, where do they get the money for courses?
[QUOTE=kuydna;43360602]We didn't.
Also I didn't, even though at one point I handed in a totally unedited photocopy of someone else's work. Not proud of myself but everyone else was doing it and it was the authorities job to stop things like that. Yes it was a shit uni but aren't most of them here?[/quote]
To be honest, quite a few of the unis here are so shit tier it makes the US high school system look competitive. But the fact you got away with that really says a ton about the pure quality of the uni I have to say. (If it's not much to ask, what uni was it?)
[QUOTE=kuydna;43360602]Ask the DTI and British employers. It's something I found to be endemic when I was a student.[/quote]
We do get told by our careers advisers on a regular basis that a lot of students fuck this stuff up. They also never seem to specify the courses annoyingly.
[QUOTE=kuydna;43360602]Now you're accusing me of racism/xenophobia?[/QUOTE]
Just seems to come with the territory with "got mine fuck off poors lmao" types. Plus with the constant use of "libtard" it's safe to say you're biased as fuck to the right, which is inherently racist in almost every country.
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