Ukrainian Protesters topple statue of Lenin in Independence Square. EU Flag now flies on the pedesta
73 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43115887]One of the things Lenin established within the party was to suppress "factionalism". On its own at the time this was not realized, but Stalin would abuse it in later years to gain control of the party.
NEP was working quite well, but Lenin was holding off on Communism because the peasantry were so violently opposed to his regime. Stalin decided to fix the problem of the peasantry by liquidating them as a group.[/QUOTE]
The peasantry was opposed to the regime so hard, there was actually a third faction in the Civil War, the Greens which consisted of peasants that defended their own villages from both the Reds and the Whites.
A notable leader of these is Nestor Makhno.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43115986]The Soviet State was as indifferent to the sufferings of their citizens in 1921 as it was in 1931.
It wasn't exactly genocide, but Lenin was clearly capable of allowing so much pointless suffering to happen. During both famines, the Soviet Union exported food to pay for heavy industrial machinery while denying foreign aid.
[editline]8th December 2013[/editline]
It's largely accepted that the Holodomor was a genocide.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921#International_relief_effort[/url]
people did try to help, and a lot of food did make it to the ukraine.
yea soviet policy was pretty brutal under lenin regarding the ukrainians, but it was nothing compared to the holodomor.
[QUOTE=damnatus;43116001]lotta people confuse lenin with stalin, including those protesters[/QUOTE]
Lenin crushed Ukrainian bids for independence and violently suppressed secessionist movements within the USSR.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43116026]Lenin crushed Ukrainian bids for independence and violently suppressed secessionist movements within the USSR.[/QUOTE]
out of curiosity, why was finland allowed to secede and ukraine not?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43115986]The Soviet State was as indifferent to the sufferings of their citizens in 1921 as it was in 1931.
It wasn't exactly genocide, but Lenin was clearly capable of allowing so much pointless suffering to happen. During both famines, the Soviet Union exported food to pay for heavy industrial machinery while denying foreign aid.[/QUOTE]
Except the Soviet Union didn't exist back in 1921, and there was no machinery to be imported because you don't really build industry in a civil war.
I've just noticed the rad looking helmet in the picture with people giving a two-fingered salute.
[QUOTE=maxumym;43116016]The peasantry was opposed to the regime so hard, there was actually a third faction in the Civil War, the Greens which consisted of peasants that defended their own villages from both the Reds and the Whites.
A notable leader of these is Nestor Makhno.[/QUOTE]
Interestingly (particularly in the western Ukraine), there was more support for Ukrainian nationalism than for the Greens, mostly due to what intellectuals had been up to under the tsars (And in the Austrian part as well). (Publishing newspapers on local events, promoting the language, setting up credit institutions, schools, etc)
So there was also the nationalist groups in the Ukraine as well.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43116023][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1921#International_relief_effort[/url]
people did try to help,[B] and a lot of food did make it to the ukraine.[/B]
[/QUOTE]
Ukraine was actually one of the places providing support, it wasn't devastated by the revolution as much as the russian territory and thus had a fair share of food at the time.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43116056]out of curiosity, why was finland allowed to secede and ukraine not?[/QUOTE]
They lost the war against Finland.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43116087]They lost the war against Finland.[/QUOTE]
finland seems to have a really good record for wars against russia.
2stupid2care
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/2AGHy7X.jpg[/IMG]
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitpost / why reply?" - Craptasket))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43116087]They lost the war against Finland.[/QUOTE]
This might sound silly, but losing the war to Finland was one of the reasons USSR was able to defeat Germany, as it showed the glaring holes in USSR's military and forced them to go fix it.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43116087]They lost the war against Finland.[/QUOTE]
I believe you're thinking of the Winter War, as far as I know it didn't have any conflict with the USSR during the Russian civil war, as it had a civil war of it's own going on.
Shush
Listen to this instead
[video=youtube;-kcOpyM9cBg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kcOpyM9cBg[/video]
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43116056]out of curiosity, why was finland allowed to secede and ukraine not?[/QUOTE]
they were too busy with the other secessionist movements
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43116087]They lost the war against Finland.[/QUOTE]
wouldn't really call it a loss, Finland still lost lots of territory and had to pay [url=http://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=7F1PAAAAIBAJ&sjid=JE8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=4694,38599&dq=finland+shipbuilding+industry&hl=en]massive war reparations[/url] to the Soviet Union. the USSR also realized the faults within their military due to the failure of this conflict and as maxumym said it allowed them to fix their military somewhat
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43116056]out of curiosity, why was finland allowed to secede and ukraine not?[/QUOTE]
It's not that they were "allowed to" they declared themselves and fought for it, same as the Poles and baltic states.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Civil_War[/url]
Livestream is up:
[url]http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-12-08/livestream-ukraine-where-tens-thousands-return-protest-kievs-main-square[/url]
[QUOTE=Psychokitten;43115516]Yeah, real cool, ordering the deaths of the former royal family.[/QUOTE]
The Russian government in 2010 after years of investigating the executions of the royal family showed Lenin didn't make any order to kill them and they were done by someone else under someone elses order, Lenin actually wasn't pleased that they were shot but he didn't mind it IIRC
[QUOTE=fruxodaily;43116957]The Russian government in 2010 after years of investigating the executions of the royal family showed Lenin didn't make any order to kill them and they were done by someone else under someone elses order, Lenin actually wasn't pleased that they were shot but he didn't mind it IIRC[/QUOTE]
sorry if i'm a bit skeptical of the russian government that has constantly been trying to romanticize the USSR & white wash the awful things it did
[QUOTE=Zezibesh;43116622]wouldn't really call it a loss, Finland still lost lots of territory and had to pay [url=http://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=7F1PAAAAIBAJ&sjid=JE8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=4694,38599&dq=finland+shipbuilding+industry&hl=en]massive war reparations[/url] to the Soviet Union. the USSR also realized the faults within their military due to the failure of this conflict and as maxumym said it allowed them to fix their military somewhat[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=poiuytrewq;43116235]I believe you're thinking of the Winter War, as far as I know it didn't have any conflict with the USSR during the Russian civil war, as it had a civil war of it's own going on.[/QUOTE]
Nope, the Finnish civil war. The Finns won it.
Why do you think independence day was celebrated 2 days ago?
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43117309]Nope, the Finnish civil war. The Finns won it.[/QUOTE]
"civil war"
[QUOTE=Zezibesh;43117358]"civil war"[/QUOTE]
The Communists in the conflict were pretty much trying to make Finland a part of the glorious Soviet motherland. Plus all of that support from the Soviets.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;43116087]They lost the war against Finland.[/QUOTE]
Actually the Russians won but since the finns proven to be very tricky people USSR took Karelia
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43116056]out of curiosity, why was finland allowed to secede and ukraine not?[/QUOTE]The Reds lost in our civil war, while they won at least part of Ukraine in their own civil war i.e. the Soviet Union had a solid foothold in Ukraine at what was a very difficult time for the SU (to put it lightly)
Related to the Finnish secession from USSR:
Like it's been said, the Soviet Union was in it's babyshoes still back then, having a very turbulent birth going on. The Whites had won the civil war in Finland and the Reds were pretty much goner, and the new White government had the backing of Germany so Lenin didn't want to stir up too much shit by getting involved.
From what I remember Lenin also believed that it would be inevitable that a red revolution would happen in Finland later on by it's own accord, and Finland would join the Soviet Union as a buffer state, so he did not believe it necessary to try and intervene. Also something about trying to prove his point about sovereignty of nations or some shit.
Am I the only one who found the hammer and sickle stalhelm dude in this protest picture somewhat ironic
[img]http://s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20131208&t=2&i=818525193&w=&fh=&fw=&ll=700&pl=390&r=CBRE9B711QI00[/img]
[QUOTE=yawmwen;43116056]out of curiosity, why was finland allowed to secede and ukraine not?[/QUOTE]
Well, Ukraine was caught up in The Great War, with Bolsheviks, Whites, Germans, and Poles all fighting, as well as infighting. Too much chaos, I doubt they even got a chance. Finland on the other hand was far from the chaos, and took advantage of the political turmoil and war in Russia to succeed. By the time the region was stable, half of Ukraine was owned by Poland and the other half was owned by the Soviets, who by now were already setting their eyes on taking Finland back, let alone allowing more nations to secede.
A better question would be why Britain declared War on Germany for invading Poland, but they never so much as reprimanded Russia for doing the exact same thing mere weeks later. It's one historical thing that actually really bothers me...
[QUOTE=Kill001;43121534]Am I the only one who found the hammer and sickle stalhelm dude in this protest picture somewhat ironic
[img]http://s1.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20131208&t=2&i=818525193&w=&fh=&fw=&ll=700&pl=390&r=CBRE9B711QI00[/img][/QUOTE]
i dunno, i think when u look at how it's titled it's trying to make the hammer & sickle look like the nazi swastika to compare the USSR to nazi germany
[QUOTE=Source]People hacked off chunks of the prostrate.[/QUOTE]
that's dangerously similar to prostate
for a moment I thought the statue had a prostate inside it
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;43121997]i dunno, i think when u look at how it's titled it's trying to make the hammer & sickle look like the nazi swastika to compare the USSR to nazi germany[/QUOTE]
I wonder if he has to explain that to people all the time.
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