• Two-year-old accidentally shoots woman dead in US.
    155 replies, posted
[QUOTE=BazzBerry;46824672]This is one of the large reasons of why ([I][b]I[/b] feel[/I]) that concealed carrying should not be a thing. Way too easy for somebody to get their hands on it - exactly like this scenario.[/QUOTE] Yeah, I just need to be a two year old and g.... Wait. Something's wrong Can you guess it? [QUOTE]After adjustment, individuals in possession of a gun were 4.46 (P < .05) times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not in possession. Among gun assaults where the victim had at least some chance to resist, this adjusted odds ratio increased to 5.45 (P < .05). [/QUOTE] Yeah, but I wonder, and this is really important for the argument, how many people were actually aware of their surroundings and tried to classify people into possible threats? I mean, of course, the dumb lady that is concealing a .38 and is walking while talking giving 2 shits about the guys standing next an entrance is OBVIOUSLY putting herself way more in danger than by not carrying the .38 But someone who is trained, knows how to handle the weapon and is always 360º-ing the neighbourhood...I don't believe he fits into the statistics... I can retell you many stories here of cops in civil clothes that managed to nullify the surprise factor (They were jumped upon without having a chance to prevent/notice what has happening) by having a glock .357 hidden in a jacket pocket....they told the mugger "yes have everything", gave something from one pocket...and then...shot from the other one killing the mugger.
[QUOTE=ultra_bright;46826234]Yeah it's not like anyone ever got beheaded in public before or raped or bombed in the UK. /s Buddy if someone pulls a knife on me for my wallet and I'm carrying a gun, Ill shoot him. Because I have a right to defend myself and I have a right to live with peace of mind, I don't give two shits about some muggers life if they try and mug me with a weapon.[/QUOTE] you would happily end another person's life and watch him bleed out on the ground you could go back home after that and sleep with a smile on your face? is that what you are saying?
[QUOTE=ultra_bright;46826234] /s Buddy if someone pulls a knife on me for my wallet and I'm carrying a gun, Ill shoot him. Because I have a right to defend myself and I have a right to live with peace of mind, I don't give two shits about some muggers life if they try and mug me with a weapon.[/QUOTE] I sincerely hope you never get mugged, because you're going to get yourself killed. I don't usually get involved in these dumb threads but please don't do this. You don't have the superhuman reflexes needed to draw and fire 2 shots against an opponent that's likely already within 21 feet before you consider them a threat. Best case scenario you hit your mark and he dies a little while after you.
[QUOTE=_Maverick_;46826269]you would happily end another person's life and watch him bleed out on the ground you could go back home after that and sleep with a smile on your face? is that what you are saying?[/QUOTE] No, I'm saying I would kill someone if I had a chance to defend my life. Not that I would want it to happen, there might be a court hearing afterwards and lots of police involvement but I would still be alive and happy.
[QUOTE=ultra_bright;46826323]No, I'm saying I would kill someone if I had a chance to defend my life. Not that I would want it to happen, there might be a court hearing afterwards and lots of police involvement but I would still be alive and happy.[/QUOTE] do you actually grasp the concept of ending a human life? to say nothing of it being over something so trivial as a piece of paper?
[QUOTE=_Maverick_;46826339]do you actually grasp the concept of ending a human life? to say nothing of it being over something so trivial as a piece of paper?[/QUOTE] I do, and you know what, if I wanted to kill people I would have joined the military a long time ago. It's sad that crime happens but at the same time you know the dangers you're getting into if you are going to mug someone. I am not responsible for someone elses choices in life and I'm sure as shit not going to let it affect me. It's funny you say it's as trivial as a piece of paper because police shoot people all the time and it can be very emotional to them and also be a lot of paper work. Just a few months ago some wacko was blasting empty cars with a shotgun next to my work until he got killed by some cops, I'm sure they loved blowing his head off /s.
[QUOTE=_Maverick_;46826339]do you actually grasp the concept of ending a human life? to say nothing of it being over something so trivial as a piece of paper?[/QUOTE] When they have intentionally put your life in danger they waive any right to their own safety.
[QUOTE=_Maverick_;46826339]do you actually grasp the concept of ending a human life? to say nothing of it being over something so trivial as a piece of paper?[/QUOTE] The argument here is that the mugger is equally risking their life for a "piece of paper". I don't know what kind of mugging you're talking about, but it's not like some gentleman bandit comes up and hand it over and it's some smooth transaction. Sometimes people get brutally beaten up first, and then robbed. In my neighborhood, a nice neighborhood with no crime or poverty mind you, someone broke into an old lady's house and stole her money, the person assaulted her so badly that she died. This may not be the majority of how muggings go, but it is definitely a part of it. I'm not saying that every granny needs to pack heat, or that this terrible incident would have been fixed by throwing guns at it, but there is a legitimate idea of protecting your life, and that not all of us Americans are the rooty tooty bloodthirsty cowboys that we're made out to be. This is an unfortunate incident that I feel just falls on her. I don't understand how you could keep it in your purse, loaded, walk around with your child, and have something take your attention so deeply that you could not notice or feel the kid reaching into your bag, knowing that you carry the most volitile instrument conceived by mankind in it. [editline]31st December 2014[/editline] The idea of defending yourself is not a stupid one, but what I do agree with, however, is that something in America's gun culture does need to change. For the country that I'm pretty sure has the most gun freedom on the planet, we sure don't put enough emphasis and respect for how serious of a caution owning a gun is. Just because you can have a gun, doesn't mean you should. I don't want a gun because I know the level of responsibility that's required to make sure everything about owning it is safe, and I don't want that over my head.
[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;46824848]Mostly her fault for carrying a loaded gun with a bullet chambered. That's just asking for an accidental discharge.[/QUOTE] here let me just conceal carry an empty gun let me just pull out my CC in an emergency that permits it and waste time chambering a round, when those few seconds could possibly mean life or death but hey, at least I would never AD
I always feel bad for the kids in stories like this. They don't know what they're doing, they're depending on the adults around them to look out for them. It doesn't really matter that it was in a Walmart or that it was being carried concealed, this could have just as easily happened at home. All it takes is leaving a gun in a kid's reach ONE time.
[QUOTE=Ajacks;46826211]That's an example why bag carrying is stupid. Also from my experience I have never seen a gun on anyone but law enforcement in my entire life in Indiana, a state with a very high rate of carrying. It isn't like the old west or something where you see people carrying guns around on a daily basis.[/QUOTE] When I first moved here (Indiana of course) one of the very first things that happened to me was some guy brandishing a glock because he cut me off in traffic and I flipped him the bird afterwards as he passed me. :v: He followed me until I pulled over by the way, and the cops arrested him for brandishing and concealed carrying without a permit or something like that. It was insane and I'm originally from Georgia ffs.
Source's title has been updated, the toddler shot their mother. Honestly what I wanna know is what gun she had that would allow a two year old to be able to function it accidentally, must have been something that had no external safety and only a trigger safety (allowing the trigger to get caught and pulled, thus discharging it) or a revolver which had the hammer cocked (which if it was, is fucking beyond retarded as all it takes is the trigger to get caught and the thing will discharge), with it being a pocket gun I'm going to likely call it being a revolver.
[QUOTE=MachiniOs;46824837]I thought the rule was that if you point a gun at something you should be ready to destroy it?[/QUOTE] That means you shouldn't point a gun at someone you aren't willing to kill, not that you shouldn't pull an unloaded gun or that you are obligated to shoot as soon as you pull your gun. But yeah if you have a gun for self defence it seems a bit risky to keep it unloaded.
[QUOTE=_Maverick_;46826214]Just hand over your money if you are getting mugged Nothing Not one thing on this earth is worth you or someone else getting killed because you think you have protection to persuade them to run away they are after money, not your life.[/QUOTE] Not all muggers are satisfied with money. What if he gets pissed off that you don't have enough cash? Maybe you spark a fire in his heart and he decides he just "has to have you"? I'd rather live knowing I killed a scumbag than live with the memory of being raped by a stranger. Not all muggers want money at all. Some just straight up want to hurt people. Some are psychopathic or deranged and break into people's homes just to kill them. Long story short: (At least in America) you always have the right to defend your life, with deadly force if the situation calls for it. I don't expect a Brit to understand, but don't talk down to us about is either. Your situation is completely different.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;46827787]bongland has muggings too you know[/QUOTE] Yeah I know but obviously saying that isn't going to magically change his mind. He sounds like the kind of Englishman that supports the whole "knife bin" thing, or the "must be 18+ to buy a cooking knife set" thing
[QUOTE=Snoberry Tea;46827778]Not all muggers are satisfied with money. What if he gets pissed off that you don't have enough cash? Maybe you spark a fire in his heart and he decides he just "has to have you"? I'd rather live knowing I killed a scumbag than live with the memory of being raped by a stranger. Not all muggers want money at all. Some just straight up want to hurt people. Some are psychopathic or deranged and break into people's homes just to kill them. Long story short: (At least in America) you always have the right to defend your life, with deadly force if the situation calls for it. I don't expect a Brit to understand, but don't talk down to us about is either. Your situation is completely different.[/QUOTE] At least it ain't as fucked up as in Finland: You are screwed if you get mugged and you are legally screwed if you defend yourself. I had a debate about this with a friend of mine. My argument was that if I had to go trough a bad part of town and equip myself. And then a mugger would come and pull a knife on me and I'd retort with a telescopic baton treatment. Then the legal system would actually incentivize me to finish off the poor sod to not get jailed because of battery with an illegal weapon. Whereas he would stay and call the ambulance because that's what they taught him as a Military Police officer :v:
[QUOTE=Snoberry Tea;46827778] Long story short: (At least in America) you always have the right to defend your life, with deadly force if the situation calls for it. I don't expect a Brit to understand, but don't talk down to us about is either. Your situation is completely different.[/QUOTE] it's true, we're taught from age 1 that if we ever get mugged, hand over all of our worldly belongings, family members, pin numbers and to enter the fetal position until we're rescued by the nanny-state. 'don't expect a brit to understand' are you deluded - the concept of self-defence is not exclusive to the united states the UK's self defence laws are actually pretty fucking smart at their basis, you're fully entitled to defend yourself, but your defence will be scrutinised by a jury on whether or not it was reasonable smacking a mugger who is attempting to shank you - totally legit shooting a burglar in the back with a shotgun as they are fleeing your property - murder the idea that if you have to provide a pretty fucking solid justification for lethal force in self defence, you don't have the right to defend yourself or some shit is this hilarious opinion that I've seen parroted on facepunch again and again. I'm not going to say its an american thing, because it's not, it's an idiot thing.
[QUOTE=ultra_bright;46826323]No, I'm saying I would kill someone if I had a chance to defend my life. Not that I would want it to happen, there might be a court hearing afterwards and lots of police involvement but I would still be alive and happy.[/QUOTE] you're not defending your life in a mugging. you're defending your money.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;46828034]smacking a mugger who is attempting to shank you - totally legit shooting a burglar in the back with a shotgun as they are fleeing your property - murder[/QUOTE] That's exactly the same as how it works in the US. The difference is that in the UK, if you're carrying even a pen knife in your pocket and use it to defend yourself, you're probably going to jail. You don't have a ban on self-defense, but you do have a ban on any effective means of self-defense. If you're out on the street and get jumped, you don't have any options. [editline]31st December 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=BrickInHead;46828154]you're not defending your life in a mugging. you're defending your money.[/QUOTE] Tell that to all the people who have been robbed and then murdered. Just giving over your money is no guarantee of safety if you get mugged.
[QUOTE=catbarf;46828171] Tell that to all the people who have been robbed and then murdered. Just giving over your money is no guarantee of safety if you get mugged.[/QUOTE] but it's a bigger guarantee than if you reach for a weapon.
[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;46825014]Or maybe you should stop being paranoid because muggers don't hide behind every corner to pop out and shoot you dead. Especially not at 10 AM In a Walmart[/QUOTE] It depends at where you're at, man. I've been mugged in front of passing cars in broad daylight. I don't have a problem with anyone having a gun. I actually like it when people open carry, because all it does is give you knowledge of your surroundings. In a world where you have no idea who's carrying what - at least you know the guy across the way has a pistol, and it would be incredibly stupid for him to do anything stupid with it. On topic, I have absolutely no idea how to feel about this, except I think people need to understand the significance of a gun. She knew she had a gun, and she knew she was around a two year old. This is her fault, especially because she wasn't paying attention.
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;46828154]you're not defending your life in a mugging. you're defending your money.[/QUOTE] How do you know that for sure? Some gangsters kill as part of an "initiation." Your life is at risk until you're positive it's not, and you can only be positive it's not when the other guy is no longer a threat. Whether this means he ran away, dropped his weapon, or is dead depends on the situation.
[QUOTE=ultra_bright;46826234]Because I have a right to defend myself and I have a right to live with peace of mind, I don't give two shits about some muggers life if they try and mug me with a weapon.[/QUOTE] This is something I unfortunately accept. If someone is putting themselves at that risk, then they need to accept the chances of dying. It's terrible, but it is what they're asking for. Yes, they could be people that are doing so terribly in life that they get stuck in that position, but the solution doesn't involve handing (potentially all) resources over and allowing crime to fester. If you don't like the loss of life, fix the crime rate itself. [QUOTE=_Maverick_;46826269]you would happily end another person's life and watch him bleed out on the ground you could go back home after that and sleep with a smile on your face? is that what you are saying?[/QUOTE] You deserve to be banned for trying to make him look like some sadistic killer. When did he say he would enjoy the death of someone like that? Come up with an actual argument or don't post at all.[QUOTE=Fort83;46827100]Thank god you didn't join, the last thing the military needs is another trigger happy guy who has played far too much Call Of Duty.[/QUOTE] This contributes nothing to the argument as well. Sensationalist headlines could be more than a bunch of shit-flinging if people made an attempt to rationally debate.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;46828034]it's true, we're taught from age 1 that if we ever get mugged, hand over all of our worldly belongings, family members, pin numbers and to enter the fetal position until we're rescued by the nanny-state. 'don't expect a brit to understand' are you deluded - the concept of self-defence is not exclusive to the united states the UK's self defence laws are actually pretty fucking smart at their basis, you're fully entitled to defend yourself, but your defence will be scrutinised by a jury on whether or not it was reasonable smacking a mugger who is attempting to shank you - totally legit shooting a burglar in the back with a shotgun as they are fleeing your property - murder the idea that if you have to provide a pretty fucking solid justification for lethal force in self defence, you don't have the right to defend yourself or some shit is this hilarious opinion that I've seen parroted on facepunch again and again. I'm not going to say its an american thing, because it's not, it's an idiot thing.[/QUOTE] When I say "I don't expect a brit to understand" I'm specifically talking about using firearms to defend yourself. Sorry you had a hard time understanding what was otherwise a simple concept, and then using that misunderstanding as a justification to baselessly call me an idiot. <3
[QUOTE=Snoberry Tea;46828397]<3[/QUOTE] Why? What's the point of this? You might as well have put a Lennyface. Not to mention, your argument [I]still[/I] doesn't make sense because guns aren't foreign, incomprehensible objects to people in other countries. They have a different cultural upbringing, but they are able to understand concepts. Perhaps it's not him that has misunderstood you but instead you who has misunderstood everyone that isn't American.
What's a lennyface?
[QUOTE=Snoberry Tea;46828397]When I say "I don't expect a brit to understand" I'm specifically talking about using firearms to defend yourself. Sorry you had a hard time understanding what was otherwise a simple concept, and then using that misunderstanding as a justification to baselessly call me an idiot. <3[/QUOTE] Most of the civilised world won't "understand" the strange desire to just shoot people in self-defence that a lot of you seem to show here. It's not a UK specific thing. [editline]31st December 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=ultra_bright;46826323]No, I'm saying I would kill someone if I had a chance to defend my life.[/QUOTE] Can you not see how this makes you look like a fucking psycho? "ughh i'm just gonna KILL EM if they threaten me!", a better thing to post would have been; "No, I'm sawing I would do everything I deem necessary to defend my life if I had a chance to defend my life.". Not; "lmao fuck em i shoot first, gloat later"
[QUOTE=hexpunK;46828631]Most of the civilised world won't "understand" the strange desire to just shoot people in self-defence that a lot of you seem to show here. It's not a UK specific thing.[/QUOTE] Probably because people from certain countries of the civilized word have a propensity to twist every 'yeah if I had to I'd shoot someone to ensure my safety' into 'can't wait to kill anyone who looks at me funny'. Most concealed carry advocates are people willing to defend themselves with deadly force if necessary, not bloodthirsty psychotics, but if you start off with the assumption that anyone who openly says they're willing to kill is unhinged then your perception might be somewhat skewed. If you read what ultra_bright was responding to, he's pretty much saying exactly what you suggest, that he'd do whatever is necessary (up to and including lethal force) if he had to, not shoot first and ask questions later. Nobody here seriously believes that that is an acceptable mentality but every time we have this debate the straw men come out in spades.
[QUOTE=catbarf;46828711]Probably because people from certain countries of the civilized word have a propensity to twist every 'yeah if I had to I'd shoot someone to ensure my safety' into 'can't wait to kill anyone who looks at me funny'. Most concealed carry advocates are people willing to defend themselves with deadly force if necessary, not bloodthirsty psychotics, but if you start off with the assumption that anyone who openly says they're willing to kill is unhinged then your perception might be somewhat skewed. If you read what ultra_bright was responding to, he's pretty much saying exactly what you suggest, that he'd do whatever is necessary (up to and including lethal force) if he had to, not shoot first and ask questions later. Nobody here seriously believes that that is an acceptable mentality but every time we have this debate the straw men come out in spades.[/QUOTE] This post; [QUOTE=_Maverick_;46826269]you would happily end another person's life and watch him bleed out on the ground you could go back home after that and sleep with a smile on your face? is that what you are saying?[/QUOTE] The post he was replying to was this post. A post asking him "hey would you just shoot a guy and watch him die in the name of defence??" His response? "Hells fucking yeah i'd shoot someone given a chance to defend myself", not a more reasonable response like "no, I wouldn't enjoy it, I'd only do it if needed.". Reading it numerous times, I suppose there is the interpretation of "I would kill someone given the chance, only to defend my life", but even then, that interpretation is not the first one you'd get.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;46828759]"no, I wouldn't enjoy it, I'd only do it if needed."[/QUOTE] Emphasis mine: [QUOTE=_Maverick_;46826269]you would [B]happily[/B] end another person's life and watch him bleed out on the ground you could go back home after that and sleep with a [B]smile on your face?[/B] is that what you are saying?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=ultra_bright;46826323][B]No[/B], I'm saying I would kill someone if I had a chance to defend my life.[/QUOTE] Seems to me like your personal feelings on the subject are coloring how you read the posts because he's saying pretty much exactly what you're suggesting, that he's not psychotic and wouldn't enjoy it but would do it if necessary, just not in so many words.
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