"in US." haha no shit.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitpost" - SteveUK))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=DELL;46824802]Why not just give people rubber bullets for any gun to be used as a self defense weapon?[/QUOTE]
I misread as "Why not just give kids guns with rubber bullets"
[editline]3rd January 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Aksi;46844976]"in US." haha no shit.[/QUOTE]
have fun in ban-land mr. lurk
[QUOTE=Aksi;46844976]"in US." haha no shit.[/QUOTE]
Don't you have some grossly overpriced liquor to be drowning yourself in?
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Don't feed the troll" - SteveUK))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Snoberry Tea;46846059]Don't you have some grossly overpriced liquor to be drowning yourself in?[/QUOTE]
Responding to ignorant national stereotypes with more ignorant national stereotypes doesn't help the situation at all.
[QUOTE=DaCommie1;46846123]Responding to ignorant national stereotypes with more ignorant national stereotypes doesn't help the situation at all.[/QUOTE]
No but it makes me feel better
[QUOTE=_Maverick_;46826214]Just hand over your money if you are getting mugged
Nothing
Not one thing on this earth is worth you or someone else getting killed because you think you have protection to persuade them to run away
they are after money, not your life.[/QUOTE]
Ok I don't get this mentality that I keep seeing from UK posters
Do they teach this to you in school? Isn't it a bit silly to say that? If they mug you they're going to mug someone else some time in the future. With an attitude like yours muggers are only encouraged. If they were aware that even a fraction of their potential victims could be packing heat then they would at least think twice before they mug someone, and it makes mugging someone a real risk. I don't know what the arrest rate is for muggers and thieves in the UK but they sure as hell must be letting a decent number of them fall through the cracks.
[QUOTE=Sgt-NiallR;46836531]I don't know what world people are living in when they suggest that carrying a weapon is going to protect you from a street mugging.
If you're CCing, they don't know you've got it until they threaten you, and if they've already got their gun/knife out, how in the fuck are you expecting to get [I]your own[/I] weapon out before they can respond?
I genuinely don't know why anyone would [I]not[/I] immediately hand over their wallet etc. Obviously not every mugger is going to be satisfied with just that, but why would you escalate the situation even further by pulling your own gun?[/QUOTE]
You wouldn't understand. You're a horse, you don't have pockets!
Wow, my hometown is Blackfoot, there are a lot of stupid fucks.
[QUOTE=DropDeadTed;46846422]Ok I don't get this mentality that I keep seeing from UK posters
Do they teach this to you in school? Isn't it a bit silly to say that? If they mug you they're going to mug someone else some time in the future. With an attitude like yours muggers are only encouraged. If they were aware that even a fraction of their potential victims could be packing heat then they would at least think twice before they mug someone, and it makes mugging someone a real risk. I don't know what the arrest rate is for muggers and thieves in the UK but they sure as hell must be letting a decent number of them fall through the cracks.[/QUOTE]
It sounds like our muggers work a bit differently in England to in America tbf. I've been mugged twice and both times I was rushed from behind, knocked to the floor and had shit kicked out of me before they grabbed my money and ran. It's very rare a mugger will actually hold you up or anything over here
[QUOTE=DropDeadTed;46846422]Ok I don't get this mentality that I keep seeing from UK posters
Do they teach this to you in school? Isn't it a bit silly to say that? If they mug you they're going to mug someone else some time in the future. With an attitude like yours muggers are only encouraged. If they were aware that even a fraction of their potential victims could be packing heat then they would at least think twice before they mug someone, and it makes mugging someone a real risk. I don't know what the arrest rate is for muggers and thieves in the UK but they sure as hell must be letting a decent number of them fall through the cracks.[/QUOTE]
You could also say that victims potentially packing heat in the U.S. make muggers more nervous and prone to react violently at the first suspicious move whereas such escalation happens much more rarely in countries like the U.K.
IMO if you really want to protect yourself the best way would be to Open Carry, that way muggers clearly see you are armed and look for a less potentially threatening target.
[QUOTE=strayebyrd;46847218]It sounds like our muggers work a bit differently in England to in America tbf. I've been mugged twice and both times I was rushed from behind, knocked to the floor and had shit kicked out of me before they grabbed my money and ran. It's very rare a mugger will actually hold you up or anything over here[/QUOTE]
Our muggers wear their pants low, so they can't run very fast.
[QUOTE=darunner;46848205]Our muggers wear their pants low, so they can't run very fast.[/QUOTE]
ah well Roadman over here tend to wear trackie bottoms so they're always ready
To those of you outside the U.S., I can understand how this is foreign. Outside the US, a blatant robbery that involves a group of people, one or more armed, pulling a gun, shooting someone, looting them, and taking off in broad daylight with bystanders would probably be front page national news out there.
Out here, it happens several times daily in certain cities.
Conceal carry, like any other defense again personal harm, is a fluid defensive medium and more appropriate in certain situations than others. Some folks do it because they live on farms near wild animals, some folks do it because they're state prosecutors or somesuch where it's a reasonable probably someone could come out of nowhere and kill them for revenge, some folks do it because they live in areas where firearm crime is chronic, and some folks do it because they're gun nuts. I won't debate proportions because I'm not educated in those statistics.
The thing I see a lot of with the public opinion of conceal carry is what's been perpetuated in the media in cases like Zimmerman. That is so far from the truth it's sickening: when you conceal carry, you don't draw down on everyone that confronts you like wild bill hickock, you draw down when someone's already running at you with a knife or is raising a gun or other deadly weapon at you - that's the point where you can legally articulate a fear of lethal threat upon your person ([I]the only time a conceal carry permit holder can use their firearm[/I].) Holster work is also 99% of conceal carry, and as someone who regularly practices holster work as part of their employment, I can tell you the difference between an unpracticed pesron drawing and getting sight picture versus a trained individual that practices regularly (read: ideally anyone that owns a firearm legally) is substantial, to the tune of 2-4 seconds.
For those that would preach gun control law: It's too late. America missed its opportunity to become like Britain or other places where firearm ownership is under almost total control by the government. In my opinion, which is only an opinion, America's best interest is to educate the law abiding public about guns, teach them how to use them, when to use them, and why to use them, as part of basic education.
Conceal carry isn't that foreign of a concept either, the majority of them aren't batshit nuts or paranoid, they usually have a good reason to. Not everyone, as far as I think [I]should[/I] conceal carry, but I think the option should at the very least be available.
To speak directly to the situation here, with only the information provided and barring any other exigent circumstances, the tragedy stemmed from two key points: failure to maintain situation awareness (in no way should you be so off-guard someone's digging in your bag, ESPECIALLY IF IT'S WHERE YOUR GUN IS) and failure to make the gun safe (this DOES depend on model, but you should never carry guns like glocks, where the safety is built into the firing mechanism), which lead to her death.
[QUOTE=DropDeadTed;46846422]Ok I don't get this mentality that I keep seeing from UK posters
Do they teach this to you in school? Isn't it a bit silly to say that? If they mug you they're going to mug someone else some time in the future. With an attitude like yours muggers are only encouraged. If they were aware that even a fraction of their potential victims could be packing heat then they would at least think twice before they mug someone, and it makes mugging someone a real risk. I don't know what the arrest rate is for muggers and thieves in the UK but they sure as hell must be letting a decent number of them fall through the cracks.[/QUOTE]
What makes you think that UK muggers are avoiding arrest any more than US ones? Simply handing the money over and avoiding escalation doesn't mean then strolling away from the scene and making a point of not calling the police.
[QUOTE=Sonador;46849988]you draw down when someone's already running at you with a knife or is raising a gun or other deadly weapon at you - that's the point where you can legally articulate a fear of lethal threat upon your person ([I]the only time a conceal carry permit holder can use their firearm[/I].)[/QUOTE]
Wrong.
You draw and fire if you feel that your life is threatened. There is no prerequisite of them rushing you or even brandishing a weapon. If you feel that your next breath could be your last because of ANY attack, you draw and fire. That's the bottom line.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;46850046]Wrong.
You draw and fire if you feel that your life is threatened. There is no prerequisite of them rushing you or even brandishing a weapon. If you feel that your next breath could be your last because of ANY attack, you draw and fire. That's the bottom line.[/QUOTE]
I'm speaking from a practical law standpoint and as a private citizen. While what you're saying is 100% fact as prescribed by law, one must factor the totality of the circumstances: If you're in a bad neighborhood and three guys stop you on the sidewalk and say they're going to fuck you up, advance on you, and you shoot them, you were justified by the law, but if you go to a jury (and this is only my opinion) I honestly believe you will face murder charges - especially if they were unarmed given the recent stigma in the media. If not, the media will crucify you, anyway.
I will say I think that situation is terrible and essentially wrong - and should be corrected, however.
I will also add in light of the post below this that this is California does it, where I live - other states have much more stringent or much more lax defense laws.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;46850046]Wrong.
You draw and fire if you feel that your life is threatened. There is no prerequisite of them rushing you or even brandishing a weapon. If you feel that your next breath could be your last because of ANY attack, you draw and fire. That's the bottom line.[/QUOTE]
It depends on the state. Some states require you to attempt to disengage before you can use lethal force.
[QUOTE=Lijitsu;46850069]It depends on the state. Some states require you to attempt to disengage before you can use lethal force.[/QUOTE]
Not really. If I'm being beaten within an inch of my life, and I can't escape, shooting is 100% legal in every state.
You have to remember that shooting is a LAST RESORT, not a way to get out of a situation. Why do people act like everyone is just using their CC as a first option????
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;46850096]Not really. If I'm being beaten within an inch of my life, and I can't escape, shooting is 100% legal in every state.
You have to remember that shooting is a LAST RESORT, not a way to get out of a situation. Why do people act like everyone is just using their CC as a first option????[/QUOTE]
Information about it is scarce at best to the general public, especially in states where CC's are difficult to obtain. Nobody seeks that information out, either, they generally just take what they're fed.
And I hope I didn't sound like I meant using a firearm against armed opponents only - that is 100% not correct. Lethal force is authorized against any threat that poses great bodily harm or death - armed or unarmed.
[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;46850096]Not really. If I'm being beaten within an inch of my life, and I can't escape, shooting is 100% legal in every state.
You have to remember that shooting is a LAST RESORT, not a way to get out of a situation. Why do people act like everyone is just using their CC as a first option????[/QUOTE]
[quote]You draw and fire if you feel that your life is threatened. There is no prerequisite of them rushing you or even brandishing a weapon.[/quote]
So what part of them not rushing you and not brandishing a weapon ends with you being beaten within an inch of your life? It'd be a pretty awkward standoff.
[QUOTE=_Axel;46847363]You could also say that victims potentially packing heat in the U.S. make muggers more nervous and prone to react violently at the first suspicious move whereas such escalation happens much more rarely in countries like the U.K.
IMO if you really want to protect yourself the best way would be to Open Carry, that way muggers clearly see you are armed and look for a less potentially threatening target.[/QUOTE]
Or Sneak up from behind and pull it from your holster. Or be like that dumass who was open carrying a walther P22 and get caught off guard and have it taken from you right in your face.
Concealment is your greatest surprise. If they don't know you have a gun and you get caught off guard you may be able to exploit them when they change their attention.
That and if they don't know who is and who isn't carrying they have to treat everyone as if they were.
[QUOTE=Lijitsu;46850111]So what part of them not rushing you and not brandishing a weapon ends with you being beaten within an inch of your life? It'd be a pretty awkward standoff.[/QUOTE]
You literally just took 2 completely different situations and melted them together to try and make a point that doesn't stand up.
Do you think all confrontations start with the brandishing of a weapon and/or rushing? Is there never any other way a confrontation could be started?
Treyvon Martin didn't rush or brandish a weapon, yet Zimmerman felt that his life was in danger while his head was being slammed against the concrete. It was a simple confrontation that turned violent. Not all confrontations are these cookie cutter strawmen that you like to think they are.
Guys I think it's time to let this thread die.
[QUOTE=UncleJimmema;46850184]Or Sneak up from behind and pull it from your holster. Or be like that dumass who was open carrying a walther P22 and get caught off guard and have it taken from you right in your face.[/QUOTE]
Wouldn't such an event only occur due to a lack of situational awareness, the thing you're supposed to have when you Conceal Carry, lest your weapon be useless?
[QUOTE]Concealment is your greatest surprise. If they don't know you have a gun and you get caught off guard you may be able to exploit them when they change their attention.[/QUOTE]
Don't they expect all of their preys to have a gun? I mean that's what you say just after that:
[QUOTE]That and is they don't know who is and who isn't carrying they have to treat everyone as if they were.[/QUOTE]
In that case the element of surprise is rather nullified, isn't it?
My point is, if you transform every mugging into a life-or-death situation, you don't only make it more dangerous for the culprit, but more importantly for the victim as well.
[QUOTE=_Axel;46850308]Wouldn't such an event only occur due to a lack of situational awareness, the thing you're supposed to have when you Conceal Carry, lest your weapon be useless?
Don't they expect all of their preys to have a gun? I mean that's what you say just after that:
In that case the element of surprise is rather nullified, isn't it?
My point is, if you transform every mugging into a life-or-death situation, you don't only make it more dangerous for the culprit, but more importantly for the victim as well.[/QUOTE]
Either way of thought offers its prose and cons, and there's honestly no perfect way for anything to go down. Regardless of how prepared you are there's always the possibility of everything going wrong. You could have the best situational awareness in the world and still get caught off guard. That doesn't mean that you should throw that out the window and say that your fucked. Having something is always better than nothing.
You can poke holes in anyone's argument, but honestly when it comes to this stuff how to do things right isn't exactly christal clear
The biggest thing about carrying is not getting engaged, but avoiding them as best as possible and deterring threats if possible.
Prose is ordinary speech/writing without rhythmic or rhyming structure.
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