[QUOTE=thisispain;26403157]i've faced it many times before and you've completely ignored it because you don't really give a fuck[/QUOTE]
Muslims are to seriously resist individual apostasy before it seriously intensifies and develops into a collective one. That is why the Muslim jurists are unanimous that apostates must be punished, yet they differ as to determining the kind of punishment to be inflicted upon them. The majority of them, including the four main schools of jurisprudence (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi`i, and Hanbali) as well as the other four schools of jurisprudence (the four Shiite schools of Az-Zaidiyyah, Al-Ithna-`ashriyyah, Al-Ja`fariyyah, and Az-Zaheriyyah) agree that apostates must be executed.
Are you saying that this is false?
[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;26403177]
Are you saying that this is false?[/QUOTE]
are you saying jihad watch is trusted with islamic law?
and why is a man banned from the united states and the united kingdom the spokesperson for islam
you're so full of crap you don't even research anything you say, you just blindly obey what a website tells you
There's probably no point in saying this but the only people who really follow that kind of thing are the extremists and they use the "anything but my interpretation are apostates" so they can persecute them too. Catholics and Protestants do it all the time and with some pretty bad extremists, it's not hard to see them overusing it.
Thing is though, who gives a fuck if some extremists claim they are apostates? They still follow Islam the way they want to and don't give a fuck.
[QUOTE=thisispain;26403215]are you saying jihad watch is trusted with islamic law?
and why is a man banned from the united states and the united kingdom the spokesperson for islam
you're so full of crap you don't even research anything you say, you just blindly obey what a website tells you[/QUOTE]
Heffening, W. (1993). "Murtadd". In C.E. Bosworth, E. van Donzel, W.P. Heinrichs, et al.. Encyclopaedia of Islam. 7. Brill Academic Publishers. ISBN 978-90-04-09419-2.
[url]http://gulfnews.com/news/region/iran/iran-considering-death-penalty-for-web-related-crimes-1.116338[/url]
[url]http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/059fpgrn.asp[/url]
Not to mention Salman Rushdie, who received a fatwa from the Ayatollah himself if I recall correctly.
Wait, we're basing this on /one/ source?
E: why do you assume conservatives hate muslims by default?
[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;26403274]Heffening, W. (1993). "Murtadd". In C.E. Bosworth, E. van Donzel, W.P. Heinrichs, et al.. Encyclopaedia of Islam. 7. Brill Academic Publishers. ISBN 978-90-04-09419-2.[/QUOTE]
that's something you pulled out of your ass fyi because i have the exact article where all your words come from
why should i believe you (you being robert spencer a man constantly discredited and proven to lie often even by conservatives)
[editline]30th November 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;26403304]Wait, we're basing this on /one/ source?[/QUOTE]
a jihad watch source yes
gentlemanne is a clown with no citation and no research, simply a mouth puppet for a website not taken seriously by anybody
[QUOTE=thisispain;26403310]that's something you pulled out of your ass fyi because i have the exact article where all your words come from[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=7560[/url]
Here is the book if you're interested, as you can clearly see, none of the authors are associated with Jihad Watch or Robert Spencer.
[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;26403361][url]http://www.brill.nl/default.aspx?partid=227&pid=7560[/url]
Here is the book if you're interested, as you can clearly see, none of the authors are associated with Jihad Watch or Robert Spencer.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/04/qaradawi-on-apostasy.html[/url]
[quote] Muslims are to seriously resist individual apostasy before it seriously intensifies and develops into a collective one. That is why the Muslim jurists are unanimous that apostates must be punished, yet they differ as to determining the kind of punishment to be inflicted upon them. The majority of them, including the four main schools of jurisprudence (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi`i, and Hanbali) as well as the other four schools of jurisprudence (the four Shiite schools of Az-Zaidiyyah, Al-Ithna-`ashriyyah, Al-Ja`fariyyah, and Az-Zaheriyyah) agree that apostates must be executed.[/quote]
holy fuck sound familiar?
[QUOTE=thisispain;26403390][url]http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006/04/qaradawi-on-apostasy.html[/url]
holy fuck sound familiar?[/QUOTE]
Yes, it does, but I did provide a source for that statement, the authors of Encyclopaedia of Islam(once again, Heffening, W. (1993). "Murtadd". In C.E. Bosworth, E. van Donzel, W.P. Heinrichs, et al.. Encyclopaedia of Islam. 7. Brill Academic Publishers. ISBN 978-90-04-09419-2.) claim that the Hanafi, Maliki, Shaf`i and Hanbali schools of jurisprudence(Fiqh) advocate the death penalty for apostasy. If you want to read up on their research and dispute their claims you are free to do so.
Forgive my ignorance, but are the schools of jurisprudence actually from a divine source (e.g. the Koran), or are they simply scholarly interpretations?
Scholarly interpretations of divine sources. Still bullshit with most of their reasoning for this being they don't want their people to become more secular and stray from the traditional Islam, something that any holy man would advocate.
[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;26403440]Forgive my ignorance, but are the schools of jurisprudence actually from a divine source (e.g. the Koran), or are they simply scholarly interpretations?[/QUOTE]
Scholarly interpretations ofcourse, but they are considered the premier authority on Sharia law in most Muslim countries.
no, Yusuf Al-Qaradawi claims that
this is why i don't take you seriously, you make up arguments from zero rhetoric and copy-paste bullshit
[b]did you spend 1,200 dollars on a encyclopaedia?[/b], i fucking doubt you did
[editline]30th November 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;26403466]Scholarly interpretations ofcourse, but they are considered the premier authority on Sharia law in most Muslim countries.[/QUOTE]
Yusuf Al-Qaradawi is not a premier authority
[QUOTE=thisispain;26403469][b]did you spend 1,200 dollars on a encyclopaedia?[/b], i fucking doubt you did[/QUOTE]
University libraries are very well stocked. Come on, dispute their claims, I fucking double dare you.
[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;26403503]University libraries are very well stocked. Come on, dispute their claims, I fucking double dare you.[/QUOTE]
it's not their claims, it's Yusuf Al-Qaradawi's claims
and which university do you go to sir, i find it interesting that you have the time to read up so much on islam while making alts on facepunch
[editline]30th November 2010[/editline]
and again, why should i believe you
Scholarly interpretations, no matter how popular, do not define the nature of a faith. Hell, they might /all/ say that Islam desires the deaths of all non-believers - however, this is still only a human's interpretation of a source with conflicting views.
E: if this is just one man's claims, then it means shit-all. a single source is hardly a reliable way to determine anything.
[QUOTE=thisispain;26403531]and which university do you go to sir, i find it interesting that you have the time to read up so much on islam while making alts on facepunch[/QUOTE]
Oh, so we're handing out personal information now are we? Besides, who are you to talk Mr. 34,476 posts?
[QUOTE=thisispain;26403531]and again, why should i believe you[/QUOTE]
You don't have to believe me, you just have to read the book. It's very well sourced and researched.
[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;26403503]University libraries are very well stocked. Come on, dispute their claims, I fucking double dare you.[/QUOTE]
I disputed their claims by saying they are falling on deaf ears. It doesn't matter what the Holy man says, he still needs his people to follow him to have any power. These guys are trying to reel in their flock to their traditional form of Islam but no-one's really listening. It's unlikely that they will be successful in this pursuit so they will just distance themselves from the public even more sending them into a secular environment in more developed countries or a different kind of following eg. the Tribal laws in Afghanistan.
[QUOTE=Dr_Funk;26403550]Scholarly interpretations, no matter how popular, do not define the nature of a faith. Hell, they might /all/ say that Islam desires the deaths of all non-believers - however, this is still only a human's interpretation of a source with conflicting views.[/QUOTE]
gentlemanne (robert spencer or pamela geller) refuse to acknowledge this and ignore it because they write articles on a website that doesn't require to be fact checked
about as much verifiability as a column in a news paper
[editline]30th November 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;26403559]Oh, so we're handing out personal information now are we? Besides, who are you to talk Mr. 34,476 posts?[/QUOTE]
you dodged the question. why is Yusuf Al-Qaradawi the main scholar of islam?
become defensive, but most of my 34,476 are posts consisting of giggles and lols
yours consist of copy-paste from jihad watch
[QUOTE=Devodiere;26403562]It doesn't matter what the Holy man says, he still needs his people to follow him to have any power. These guys are trying to reel in their flock to their traditional form of Islam but no-one's really listening.[/QUOTE]
I recall one of those holy men overthrowing the Shah of Iran.
[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;26403559]
You don't have to believe me, you just have to read the book. It's very well sourced and researched.[/QUOTE]
the article i mentioned in which you got your claim from does not cite this book. i don't believe you've read it, and your citation doesn't point to a page at all, so if you were in university that would be a zero
[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;26403603]I recall one of those holy men overthrowing the Shah of Iran.[/QUOTE]
His words then were powerful, now he speaks gibberish and no-one listens. The Iranian people are already for the most part very secular so if they were to execute everyone who strayed from their version of Islam, there would be a significant amount more executions. People question him readily and while he controls the government, he is far from controlling the people.
[QUOTE=thisispain;26403568]gentlemanne (robert spencer or pamela geller) refuse to acknowledge this and ignore it because they write articles on a website that doesn't require to be fact checked[/quote]
Please, you're making me blush.
[QUOTE=thisispain;26403568]you dodged the question. why is Yusuf Al-Qaradawi the main scholar of islam?[/QUOTE]
Did I ever say he was? The schools of jurisprudence mentioned are Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi`i and Hanbali. So that's a bunch of cats like Abu Hanifa an-Nu‘man ibn Thābit, Mālik ibn Anas, Imām ash-Shāfi‘ī and Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;26403638]His words then were powerful, now he speaks gibberish and no-one listens. The Iranian people are already for the most part very secular so if they were to execute everyone who strayed from their version of Islam, there would be a significant amount more executions. People question him readily and while he controls the government, he is far from controlling the people.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://gulfnews.com/news/region/iran/iran-considering-death-penalty-for-web-related-crimes-1.116338[/url]
Seems like quite a lasting impact if you ask me.
There's no authority on Islam, Mingus Major. They're just like Protestants. As much as you like source some no namer as "divine authority", it's not true.
[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;26403603]I recall one of those holy men overthrowing the Shah of Iran.[/QUOTE]
the shah was not overthrown, he left his government to Bakhtiar who gave [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayatollah_Khomeini"]Khomeini power
[/URL]
[editline]30th November 2010[/editline]
[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;26403653]
Did I ever say he was? [/QUOTE]
[b]yes you did[/b] you cannot mention a bunch of fucking schools of jurisprudence and pretend like you've studied them. you even misspell them like they are misspelled on jihad watch.
why is Yusuf Al-Qaradawi the main scholar of islam?
[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;26402698]Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice, and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.[/QUOTE]
Extremism of any form clouds judgement, it closes of your mind to new options and better courses of action.
In short, it makes you a redneck.
[QUOTE=starpluck;26403658]There's no authority on Islam, Mingus Major. They're just like Protestants. As much as you like source some no namer as "divine authority", it's not true.[/QUOTE]
No namers? I'm sourcing some of the most famous and widely followed Islamic scholars in the history of man.
[QUOTE=bravehat;26403689]Extremism of any form clouds judgement, it closes of your mind to new options and better courses of action.
In short, it makes you a redneck.[/QUOTE]
How very eloquent of you. Really goes a long way to prove your point, lol!
you provoked me and now i'm calling you out on your bullshit, but you haven't given me one verifiable piece of information! why should i waste time on you when your words are not even yours?
[QUOTE=Gentlemanne;26365499]Muslims are to seriously resist individual apostasy before it seriously intensifies and develops into a collective one. That is why the Muslim jurists are unanimous that apostates must be punished, yet they differ as to determining the kind of punishment to be inflicted upon them. The majority of them, including the four main schools of jurisprudence (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi`i, and Hanbali) as well as the other four schools of jurisprudence (the four Shiite schools of Az-Zaidiyyah, Al-Ithna-`ashriyyah, Al-Ja`fariyyah, and Az-Zaheriyyah) agree that apostates must be executed.[/QUOTE]
Actually i dont know if anyone discussed this yet but coming from an ex-atheist, ex apostate muslim, apostaty is by the islamic sharia, punishable by death, but whats so funny about you islamaphobes is that you just stop and dont contunue from there, an apostate needs to be judged by an actual qualified islamic judge not by individual people and also the apostate has 3 days to repent before any verdict can be reached and also muslim scholars will come to him and try to answer his/her questions about islam and try to change his/her mind about his/her apostasy.
Also the fact is that i dont really see muslim apostates as holding the truth about the faith, because you dont need to hear some angry apostate rant about mohammed to learn something from it (he/she will obviously try to make him sound evil, thats why they left islam), learn it from actual scholars who actually have it as their job to know everything about the faith and know it accurately, then you decide, also it isint that apostates get excecuted so they dont increase in number, it's because they will try to give a bad image of the faith to people who dont know much about it and therefore end up hating islam without even listening to the other side of the story, like you Gentlemanne!
[QUOTE=thisispain;26403661][b]yes you did[/b] you cannot mention a bunch of fucking schools of jurisprudence and pretend like you've studied them. you even misspell them like they are misspelled on jihad watch.[/QUOTE]
Rofl, go ahead and prove me wrong that they don't advocate the death penalty for apostates then. I already sourced my claim, and you're free to review said source.
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