U.S. sanctions FSB and GRU as it expels 35 Russian diplomats and closes 2 compounds - Polidicks

Shooting the messenger.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;51598837]I just don't know what sort of proof would be conclusive enough to convince yall that couldn't be accused of forgery. It just seems like some people have their heels dug in to the idea that Russia could never do something like this.[/QUOTE] Not doubting the validity. Doubting the competence of our government. The report is more damning for us than it is Russia.

[QUOTE=antianan;51598968]What witness cases? What money tracking? Anyway, I myself said that the report doesn't prove anything, the point of my post was that it's a pure nightmare to prove things when it comes to something from the technical field because it requires people to basically be a part of an investigation(to assure that the data was not forged) and be versed in cyber security, which is obviously impossible.[/QUOTE] Great, that means we are entering a world of new trumpcards. Somethign bad hapens, you pin it on opposite party, claim they hackity hacked and caused something bad, never present a solid evidence on pretext that it is impossible to aquire. hey guys, next year Putin going to be our president again cause operation "COWBOY RIDER" by radical KKK agents inside FBI was a success and they remotelly gave him 666% vote victory! We are not going to investigate what was hacked, but we sure going to punish US for that!

[QUOTE=karimatrix;51598983]Great, that means we are entering a world of [B]new[/B] trumpcards. [/QUOTE] Have you been living under a rock or something? This is exactly how it's been since the start of the Cold War. Edit: Dunno why you're PMing me because this is directly relevant to the thread. [QUOTE=karimatrix]you misunderstood. I am talking about using cyber espionage as indisputable excuse for own fuck ups there was not much cyber back in 1950, right?[/QUOTE] Cyber, conventional espionage, doesn't matter. One side says they caught a spy, the other side says they arrested a diplomat. One side says they have evidence of foreign troops in a conflict zone, the other side says they must be mistaken. One side says the other was interfering in elections, the other side says the claims are baseless. This is how it's always been- and considering the number of Russians unwilling to believe that the unmarked green men carrying Russian weapons and following Russian doctrine in Ukraine might actually be Russians, I don't think any amount of evidence would change the details in this case. The US says it was Russia, Russia says it wasn't. Speculation and politicking as usual.

[QUOTE=karimatrix;51598983]Great, that means we are entering a world of new trumpcards. Somethign bad hapens, you pin it on opposite party, claim they hackity hacked and caused something bad, never present a solid evidence on pretext that it is impossible to aquire.[/QUOTE] There's not much we can do about it. Things get more and more complicated every day. You don't expect an article on some scientific breakthrough to contain all the equations and stuff, right? They just state the facts and try to convey the main idea, and only a very limited amount of people can actually verify the correctness of the calculations. That's basically the same, except for national interests being involved, which makes things ten times more convoluted. Actually regardless of was it Russia or not, when a regional power starts to meddle with the only superpower on the planet it sure should expect to have all sorts of problems heading it's way.

[QUOTE=antianan;51598904]Actually it's kinda funny how people so desperately demanded to release solid proof that it was Russia behind the hack, obviously not understanding that a reader of that proof must have access to all the information gathered by the investigation as well as enough qualification and knowledge to simply understand what's going on. And even then, it would still be really hard to prove that the whole thing was not fabricated. So while what they released certainly doesn't prove anything( they basically just showed a single metadata snippet and a lot of vague text around it), you guys should not expect them to release anything "solid". It's not like there would be a russian text all over the data or something.[/QUOTE] So why would US make this a public issue if they can't actually back up their claim? Without solid evidence all this news does is rile people up about Russia for no good reason. Surely that's not what Obama wants? [editline]29th December 2016[/editline] I mean this is our public elections we're talking about. Isn't that important enough to give up a little competitive advantage on the Russians? Don't the people have a right to know?

[QUOTE=Chonch;51599223]So why would US make this a public issue if they can't actually back up their claim? Without solid evidence all this news does is rile people up about Russia for no good reason. Surely that's not what Obama wants? [editline]29th December 2016[/editline] I mean this is our public elections we're talking about. Isn't that important enough to give up a little competitive advantage on the Russians? Don't the people have a right to know?[/QUOTE] I wasn't even talking about the authenticity of the revealed data or implying they should have kept it in secret. I just pointed out that it's hard to impossible to actually prove the claims to the public or even specialists because of the aforementioned reasons, that's all.

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51598936]Response from Russian Embassy UK: [media]https://twitter.com/russianembassy/status/814564127230271489[/media][/QUOTE] War were declared

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;51598325]until putin accidentally insults trump and we get war regardless[/QUOTE] "That's a silly toupeh" "At least I'm not going bald!" *nuclear anihilation ensues*

Expected to enter and see karimatrix shilling every few posts, not disappointed

[QUOTE=RAG Frag;51600514]Expected to enter and see karimatrix shilling every few posts, not disappointed[/QUOTE] Almost like people don't like it when you insult their country. When you blame Russia the people there think that you are saying that the entire country is to blame, rather than the government. It's important to make a distinction between the government and the people.

[QUOTE=jimbobjoe1234;51600526]Almost like people don't like it when you insult their country. When you blame Russia the people there think that you are saying that the entire country is to blame, rather than the government. It's important to make a distinction between the government and the people.[/QUOTE] But this isn't insulting his country, this is very clearly stated to be a sanction on Russian government employees and institutions in response to solid reasons.

[QUOTE=jimbobjoe1234;51600526]Almost like people don't like it when you insult their country. When you blame Russia the people there think that you are saying that the entire country is to blame, rather than the government. It's important to make a distinction between the government and the people.[/QUOTE] The majority of the Russian population is to blame as well, since they're so supportive of their government and like to pin the blame of everything bad happening in their country to the "fascist" west and US without a single sliver of self-awareness that all the sanctions and hate on Russia is caused by the actions of their government. The younger generation of Russians are usually more aware of what's really happening, but there are some exceptions, like karimatrix.

[QUOTE=Ghost656;51600998]The majority of the Russian population is to blame as well, since they're so supportive of their government and like to pin the blame of everything bad happening in their country to the "fascist" west and US without a single sliver of self-awareness that all the sanctions and hate on Russia is caused by the actions of their government. The younger generation of Russians are usually more aware of what's really happening, but there are some exceptions, like karimatrix.[/QUOTE] Russia literally intentionally falsifies elections and engages in mass government-sponsored and government-operated electoral fraud. People were accusing the US of doing the same for a long time - [I]clearly fucking not[/I], if you look at the results of this last election. In Russia, you have political rights - you have a right to vote. It's just that your vote literally doesn't matter since the Russian elections are genuinely, blatantly, undeniably rigged. In the US, your vote doesn't matter because of severe institutional problems in our electoral system. In Russia, it's because the government falsifies the elections anyways. One is clearly a bit worse. I hope things get better in Russia, genuinely, and I hope people realize what horse-shit they've been peddled for such a long time (just like in the US), but as of now, political rights are much worse off in Russia than in the US.

[QUOTE=.Isak.;51601447]Russia literally intentionally falsifies elections and engages in mass government-sponsored and government-operated electoral fraud. People were accusing the US of doing the same for a long time - [I]clearly fucking not[/I], if you look at the results of this last election. In Russia, you have political rights - you have a right to vote. It's just that your vote literally doesn't matter since the Russian elections are genuinely, blatantly, undeniably rigged. In the US, your vote doesn't matter because of severe institutional problems in our electoral system. In Russia, it's because the government falsifies the elections anyways. One is clearly a bit worse. I hope things get better in Russia, genuinely, and I hope people realize what horse-shit they've been peddled for such a long time (just like in the US), but as of now, political rights are much worse off in Russia than in the US.[/QUOTE] Brilliant summary right there.

[QUOTE=-nesto-;51598812]So this has been happening for 10 years and no one did anything? And Clinton set up an unsecure private server to handle her government work despite 10 years of "Russian" intrusion? The Obama administration was aware of the political hacks back in 2015 and it wasn't an issue until Clinton lost? Hmm[/QUOTE] They did [URL="https://www.dni.gov/index.php/newsroom/press-releases/215-press-releases-2016/1423-joint-dhs-odni-election-security-statement"]accuse[/URL] them before the election, to be fair.

Honestly I know people who, if Russia were the one doing this, would claim Putin is just being a strong leader but since it's Obama doing it he's just a child throwing a tantrum.

[QUOTE=Anderan;51602884]Honestly I know people who, if Russia were the one doing this, would claim Putin is just being a strong leader but since it's Obama doing it he's just a child throwing a tantrum.[/QUOTE] I'd criticize any government for punishing another for exposing fraud and electioneering. Doubly so when that country has a centuries long history of doing it to other nations.

[QUOTE=Anderan;51602884]Honestly I know people who, if Russia were the one doing this, would claim Putin is just being a strong leader but since it's Obama doing it he's just a child throwing a tantrum.[/QUOTE] when Putin sends Russian officials back to Russia he's [url=https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-could-be-prepping-for-war-orders-all-relatives-of-officials-to-return-home/ar-AAiUP1T] apparently[/url] [url=https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1962638/putin-orders-all-russian-children-and-relatives-studying-abroad-to-return-to-the-motherland-as-he-prepares-for-wwiii/]starting[/url] [url=http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/720430/Vladimir-Putin-orders-Russian-officials-fly-home-relatives-fears-world-war]World[/url] [url=http://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2016-10-13/russia-could-be-prepping-for-war-orders-all-relatives-of-officials-to-return-home]War[/url] [url=http://nypost.com/2016/10/12/putin-could-be-readying-for-war-calls-russians-back-to-motherland/]3[/url]