Federal Court Strikes Down Mandatory Drug Testing of Welfare Applicants
52 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Bryanrocks0;43393305]If I have to piss in a cup to get a job these people can do the same to get some government assistance.[/QUOTE]
So you're okay with guilty until proven innocent? One of the foundations of a democratic legal system and of modern society?
This is incredibly retarded.
These checks need to be in place to ensure that the people who are getting Welfare are not drug users who may or may not spend the government's money on drugs.
[QUOTE=ned_ballad;43393430]So you're okay with guilty until proven innocent? One of the foundations of a democratic legal system and of modern society?[/QUOTE]
I'm against mandatory drug testing for welfare but it's hardly 'guilty until proven innocent'. You need to undergo a background check before you get a gun, or a credit check before you get a loan, or go through security checkpoints to see the president, and nobody seriously calls those 'guilty until proven innocent'.
The idea of having some kind of mandatory check isn't undermining the foundations of our democratic society, it just shouldn't be done if there's no relevance to what's being applied for.
[editline]2nd January 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=MaddaCheeb;43393741]These checks need to be in place to ensure that the people who are getting Welfare are not drug users who may or may not spend the government's money on drugs.[/QUOTE]
But spending the government's money on booze or cigarettes is A-OK? There's lots of dumb shit people waste money on, but the stats show that a tiny fraction of the applicants would fail a drug test, and it isn't worth the cost to weed out a few people who [i]might[/i] use it for drugs.
Getting a gun is purely optional, whereas not having any food and starving to death is hardly optional.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;43393822]Getting a gun is purely optional, whereas not having any food and starving to death is hardly optional.[/QUOTE]
Regardless of how beneficial it may be for Americans who are down on their luck, you're not required to sign up for welfare. Many apartments will expect a credit check too, and shelter isn't any more optional than food is. A medical checkup is required for you to get healthcare too.
You can't just say that any sort of personal check is violating the 'innocent until proven guilty' concept. The idea is ridiculous. We rely on verification in every aspect of our lives, from healthcare to escrow. Hell, you have to get your driver's license checked before you can buy alcohol, is that subverting the fundamentals of our democratic system as well?
[QUOTE=catbarf;43394147]Welfare is optional too (you're not required to sign up for it), regardless of how beneficial it may be for Americans who are down on their luck. Many apartments will expect a credit check too, and shelter isn't any more optional than food is. A medical checkup is required for you to get healthcare too.
You can't just say that any sort of personal check is violating the 'innocent until proven guilty' concept. The idea is ridiculous. We rely on verification in every aspect of our lives, from healthcare to escrow. Hell, you have to get your driver's license checked before you can buy alcohol, is that subverting the fundamentals of our democratic system as well?[/QUOTE]
No but if you have no job and you don't get money or food somehow then you die. There is almost no situation I can think of where if you don't get a gun then you will die.
[editline]2nd January 2014[/editline]
You have to weigh the benefits of doing these checks, and the result is that they are not worth it. The idea that we should be doing these things are only pushed by privileged people wanting to punish those with less than themselves.
[editline]2nd January 2014[/editline]
Or corrupt politicians trying to make money, as in this case.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;43394167]No but if you have no job and you don't get money or food somehow then you die.[/QUOTE]
Trivially true, but what relevance does this have to the idea of a drug test being an example of 'guilty before proven innocent'? If I am homeless and an apartment won't let me lease without a credit check I know I will fail, is that 'guilty before proven innocent' too?
There is no guilt or innocence being presumed. It's a prerequisite for inclusion in a social program, nothing more, nothing less. Our society relies on these prerequisites, even at the level of basic necessities. Is it wrong for a poor person to be denied what they need to live on the basis of drug use, absolutely, and that's reason enough without needing to invoke some diatribe about the courts and democracy.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;43394167]The idea that we should be doing these things are only pushed by privileged people wanting to punish those with less than themselves.[/QUOTE]
Talk about lack of perspective. 'Drug tests are pushed by people wanting to punish those with less than themselves'? How about drug tests are pushed by people who don't want federal funds to be financing drug addictions, and are unaware of the statistics showing that this only happens in an extreme minority of cases? Jesus, not everyone who disagrees with you secretly wants to exterminate the poor.
[QUOTE=catbarf;43394275]Trivially true, but what relevance does this have to the idea of a drug test being an example of 'guilty before proven innocent'? If I am homeless and an apartment won't let me lease without a credit check I know I will fail, is that 'guilty before proven innocent' too? Sure, I have alternatives, I can go to a homeless shelter or a church, but welfare is hardly the sole provider of food for the poor and homeless.[/QUOTE]
You won't die without shelter, but you will die without food. If you fail getting welfare and can't afford food, what options do you have? It's true you can go to food banks, but your quality of life is greatly diminished.
You're talking about spending money so people have to eat at food banks? Have you ever been to a food bank?
[quote]
Talk about lack of perspective? 'Drug tests are pushed by people wanting to punish those with less than themselves'? How about drug tests are pushed by people who don't want federal funds to be financing drug addictions, and are unaware of the statistics showing that this only happens in an extreme minority of cases? Jesus, not everyone who disagrees with you secretly wants to exterminate the poor.[/quote]
No but you are misinformed, it costs more to test than it would theoretically save so why bother denying? Is that the sole reason? You're basically spending money so people will starve.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;43394307]You won't die without shelter, but you will die without food. If you fail getting welfare and can't afford food, what options do you have? It's true you can go to food banks, but your quality of life is greatly diminished.[/QUOTE]
And living on the street because you can't find anywhere that won't give you housing without a credit check won't greatly diminish your quality of life? Why is it just food that you are saying implies a presumption of guilt? If a drug test is assuming guilt before innocence, what does it matter if I'm taking the test to receive food, a job, or a loan, and what does it matter whether it's a drug test or a credit test or any other kind of test? It's completely unrelated.
Denying food to the poor because they may have run afoul of the law is wrong, you don't need to invent some convoluted and highly specific connection to democracy to say that.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;43394307]No but you are misinformed, it costs more to test than it would theoretically save so why bother denying? Is that the sole reason? You're basically spending money so people will starve.[/QUOTE]
That's... what? I said it's not worthwhile to test because of the cost. YOU said that these tests are 'only pushed by privileged people wanting to punish those with less than themselves', and that's just absurd. I don't think the tests are justified but I'm not so lazy in my reasoning that I assume anyone who disagrees with me must be evil.
cool this is a good thing
Can we just agree that poor people deserve federal help even if they're not perfect people and leave it at that, without armchair psychology as to why people want checks or irrelevance about democracy?
what does it say about ourselves if we dont help those who need help and instead treat them like (potential) criminals
[QUOTE=MaddaCheeb;43393741]This is incredibly retarded.
These checks need to be in place to ensure that the people who are getting Welfare are not drug users who may or may not spend the government's money on drugs.[/QUOTE]
maddacheeb's brand new miracale cure solution to drug addiction: starvation
[QUOTE=Sluggbuck 99;43394632]what does it say about ourselves if we dont help those who need help and instead treat them like (potential) criminals[/QUOTE]
It says something about how ignorant people are about their own priveliges. There is a conception that everyone can earn money and make a living on equal terms, and that is sure as hell not the case. In the US, as I understand it, you face some very deep shit if you fall ill or get in an accident and don't have proper insurance, for example. You can also lose your job due to circumstances you can't do anything about, like the recent economy crisis. Restricting welfare in that case only serves to alienate people and set them up for long-term unemployment.
It also happens to be a fact that [I]nobody really wants to stay on welfare[/I], that's a myth generally propagated by conservative media.
[quote]Unemployment increases susceptibility to malnutrition, illness, mental stress, and loss of self-esteem, leading to depression. According to a study published in Social Indicator Research, even those who tend to be optimistic find it difficult to look on the bright side of things when unemployed. Using interviews and data from German participants aged 16 to 94 – including individuals coping with the stresses of real life and not just a volunteering student population – the researchers determined that even optimists struggled with being unemployed.[71][/quote]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment#Costs[/url]
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;43390607]With that logic, when you drop welfare what happens when potential drug addicts need money to buy more drugs?[/QUOTE]
The same thing that already happens: They do whatever they can for their next fix.
[QUOTE=sloppy_joes;43392856]At-will employment. You can fire your workers for any reason at all. If I heard you support the democrats I can fire you because I'm your boss and you should be lucky to have a job at all peasant.[/QUOTE]
No. You're kidding, right?
"The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission enforces Federal laws prohibiting employment discrimination. These laws protect you against employment discrimination when it involves:
Unfair treatment because of your race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information.
Harassment by managers, co-workers, or others in your workplace, because of your race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information.
Denial of a reasonable workplace accommodation that you need because of your religious beliefs or disability.
Retaliation because you complained about job discrimination, or assisted with a job discrimination investigation or lawsuit."
From the EEOC website[URL="http://www.eeoc.gov/employees/"]http://www.eeoc.gov/employees/[/URL]
"State Rights." Heeples.
It upsets me that worthless people in my area can get welfare and drive around fucking cadillacs and mercs and shit but I can't get welfare to fucking live.
Wow.
I can't imagine how fucked up life must be to be jealous of people on welfare.
I've seen some cat's in Cadillacs and crazy Buicks with the fat tires and stuff. If you get close to the cars, you notice all the rust coming out from under the trim and the shitty interior.
It's quite possible that that is the one cool thing those folks own. Hell they might have even had it before getting in the circumstances they are in now. They might have been given a good deal by a friend or family member.
Or they could be lecherous fucks that bought it with drug money and the spoils of their baby farm. Probably stole half the equipment.
Fucking peasants. They should be dressed in burlap and cutting my lawn.
[QUOTE=tirpider;43399074]Wow.
I can't imagine how fucked up life must be to be jealous of people on welfare.
I've seen some cat's in Cadillacs and crazy Buicks with the fat tires and stuff. If you get close to the cars, you notice all the rust coming out from under the trim and the shitty interior.
It's quite possible that that is the one cool thing those folks own. Hell they might have even had it before getting in the circumstances they are in now. They might have been given a good deal by a friend or family member.
Or they could be lecherous fucks that bought it with drug money and the spoils of their baby farm. Probably stole half the equipment.
Fucking peasants. They should be dressed in burlap and cutting my lawn.[/QUOTE]
when i say cadilacs and mercs i don't mean old beaten shit you passive aggressive ass, i mean brand new shit. These are the kind of people who fuckin drive their shit to walmart, get out, and buy 200 dollars worth of food with foodstamps.
Meanwhile, I make 19000 a year and can't get welfare or foodstamps.
[QUOTE=Paul McCartney;43398945]"State Rights." Heeples.[/QUOTE]
I'll see state rights and raise you the Supremacy Clause.
[QUOTE=Tmaxx;43399099]when i say cadilacs and mercs i don't mean old beaten shit you passive aggressive ass, i mean brand new shit. These are the kind of people who fuckin drive their shit to walmart, get out, and buy 200 dollars worth of food with foodstamps.
Meanwhile, I make 19000 a year and can't get welfare or foodstamps.[/QUOTE]
Quit your job?
I don't know what else to tell you.
You could stalk the folks and take notes. Kinda creepy and likely illegal, but I bet you might learn something.
-edit
Or you could just continue to see them through jealous and paranoid eyes.
Seems a shame to waste your cognitive abilities like that.
But internet bitching won't change that so, fine, whatever.
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