Obama Continues to Ineffectively Restate his Opinions on Gun Control - Polidicks

[QUOTE=*Freezorg*;49205558]...and actually effective gun [I]control[/I] measures, not kneejerk nonsense like we've seen where you ban pistol grips and other "assault-type thingies" to make groups of uneducated people feel good. None of this stops guns from ending up in the hands of those who were never allowed to hold one.[/QUOTE] I can partially agree with that. Handguns and small automatics are the biggest problem. That's not to say that rifles and other long guns aren't a serious threat and should not be seriously regulated, but they're considerably less problematic than handguns and small automatics in every day violence for the simple fact that handguns and small automatics are so much more easily available and concealable. The larger the supply and population of guns, the more easy it is to obtain them illegally. [editline]28th November 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Borndeadman;49205574][URL="http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_us.html"]Except with just a quick google search you can find out that 21,175 of those deaths were suicide and not homicide. It's really only 11,208 firearm homicides. Sure it's still a big number but if you really want that number to go down maybe increase efforts into suicide prevention?[/URL][/QUOTE] Thank you for clarifying that. I will keep it in mind moving forward. Just the same, however, 11000+ deaths per year to gun violence still places us far ahead of every other Western nation in per capita gun violence. We only come behind fourteen other countries when compared to every other nation in the world, most of which are essentially actual warzones. The rate of gun violence is far, far too high. While I don't think that restrictive gun control measures are the [I]only[/I] thing needed to reduce violent crimes in the US, but it is a very big part of the equation.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49205590]I can partially agree with that. Handguns and small automatics are the biggest problem. That's not to say that rifles and other long guns aren't a serious threat and should not be seriously regulated, but they're considerably less problematic than handguns and small automatics in every day violence for the simple fact that handguns and small automatics are so much more easily available and concealable. The larger the supply and population of guns, the more easy it is to obtain them illegally.[/QUOTE] My suggestion would be to subject people to decent psychological tests similar to what an airline pilot has to go through in order to get their license. And have these tests occur periodically, and not as a one-time thing, possibly even yearly.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49205590]Handguns and small automatics are the biggest problem.[/QUOTE] No, people are the problem.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49205590]Thank you for clarifying that. I will keep it in mind moving forward. Just the same, however, 11000+ deaths per year to gun violence still places us far ahead of every other Western nation in per capita gun violence. We only come behind fourteen other countries when compared to every other nation in the world, most of which are essentially actual warzones. The rate of gun violence is far, far too high. While I don't think that restrictive gun control measures are the [I]only[/I] thing needed to reduce violent crimes in the US, but it is a very big part of the equation.[/QUOTE] when was the last time people were killed with a legal fully automatic weapon in the US anyway?

[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;49205450]If we didn't have the entire American South holding back any form of progress, we should just ban any guns other than hunting rifles and shotguns altogether. Look at Australia, it worked for them.[/QUOTE] There's two really big problems with the argument that "it worked for Australia, so it'll work for America." First one is population and population density. Australia's total population is a little under 24 million. The population of the state of California, just one American state, is 38.8 million. One state has a population higher than the total population of Australia. There's also the issue of population density. Australia's population is largely concentrated to cities along the eastern coast. America, meanwhile, has people living on basically every single inch of it. The second and arguably the more important issue is the sense of entitlement that most Americans hold about being, well, American. "We're American, we're #1, nobody can tell us what to do, the second amendment is specifically for armed uprisings against oppressive governments." That attitude is incredibly prevalent through the country. In a country that's more culturally easygoing like Australia, you could convince the relatively small population to turn in their guns for the greater good and have them gone in a few years. Americans, meanwhile, would sooner start shooting at government officials than give up their guns voluntarily. The government wouldn't be able to effectively remove firearms from the hands of civilians given the sheer amount of civilians with guns, the distribution of said civilians, and the sense of entitlement the civilians hold. Don't get me wrong, I'm pro gun control. I think this country would be far better off without guns in the hands of the average Americans. I also recognize that enacting a policy like this would be next to impossible given how fucking stupid Americans as a majority can be.

[QUOTE=SIRIUS;49205429]It really is past the time for better gun control[/QUOTE] Colorado has already enacted the stuff Obama says he wants. We have a mag cap law, no private sales without background checks, and so on. What else could have stopped this guy?

[QUOTE=Ridge;49205720]Colorado has already enacted the stuff Obama says he wants. We have a mag cap law, no private sales without background checks, and so on. What else could have stopped this guy?[/QUOTE] Ah yes, the good old "mag cap" law, the perfect example of "hey this measure is completely useless but let's go right ahead and do it"

[QUOTE=*Freezorg*;49205461]There we go with this nonsense argument again. "It worked for Australia so it'll work in the USA".[/QUOTE] Exactly people in Australia are more logical than Americans.

[QUOTE=coldroll5;49205745]Exactly people in Australia are more logical than Americans.[/QUOTE] Now this is what I call a great post.

Hey guys, Colorado implemented those common sense gun control laws that Obama wanted... This happened in Colorado. Also, we cannot own "Weapons of war" in the sense he is making, he's being sensationalist. We had an Assault Weapons Ban and it was ineffective, going back changes nothing. Every time this happens we have massive debates, no one gets it through their head that new laws wouldn't work, and this will be just like every other debate on them here.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49205528]You can't do a driveby shooting with a knife. You can't walk into a room and kill everyone in it from the doorway with a knife. You can't have an armed standoff with police officers with a knife.[/QUOTE] Have fun when your family can't defend themselves home alone because they don't own a gun and have no knowledge of CQC

[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;49205450]If we didn't have the entire American South holding back any form of progress, we should just ban any guns other than hunting rifles and shotguns altogether. Look at Australia, it worked for them.[/QUOTE]Minnesotan here. No, it's not just "the South." There's sane people all over the country, we're just not comfortable giving up the 2nd Amendment in part or in full. We live in an age now where indirect and sometimes direct assaults on one of the most basic of concepts, the freedom of speech, is now an acceptable casualty to feel safe. [B]Our rights are actually being eroded, everyone here is old enough to have seen it happen in their lives.[/B] We've made [I]a lot[/I] of concessions time and time again and yet you still want more, and whenever somebody does something you blame all of us for owning guns. So no, no more. We're not willfully giving up any more or letting them be watered down or burdened with stupid shit so you can sleep at night. Fuck your sleep, fuck your sense of safety, and fuck your argument. We're done sacrificing. To quote another big battle against fascism: (and to be hilariously ironic) Из этого следует, что пора кончить отступление. Ни шагу назад! [editline]28th November 2015[/editline] And that's precisely what it is. This is the same argument used to elect fascists into power during the 30's, and for fuck's sake the fact that it's being uttered openly here and taken [I]seriously[/I] is just fucking depressing. It's crippling, some days I'm just so disgusted and ashamed to be an American and I just want to end myself rather than see you all fuck up this country even further. I'd hang myself too, in case you're wondering, I couldn't end my own life knowing the method I chose could be twisted to further undermine the beliefs I had in life.

i wonder if the people who are so passionate about guns and constantly talking about how suicides make up 60% of gun deaths or whatever as an argument against gun control are as passionate about their country taking mental health more seriously, or if they're just using it as a scapegoat to try and make the number of gun related deaths seem less terrible than it is

[QUOTE=evlbzltyr;49205899]i wonder if the people who are so passionate about guns and constantly talking about how suicides make up 60% of gun deaths or whatever as an argument against gun control are as passionate about their country taking mental health more seriously, or if they're just using it as a scapegoat to try and make the number of gun related deaths seem less terrible than it is[/QUOTE] I don't think anyone, no matter what their political standing, would disagree to taking mental health more seriously

[QUOTE=Fourm Shark;49205888]Kill poverty and see gun homicides drop like a rock[/QUOTE] Fixing poverty will only stop a fraction of the problem, albeit a very large fraction. We also need to revamp our mental care, or suicides and mass shootings will still be a problem.

Colorado here. The theater shooting had the state try to make a knee jerk mag cap law. It was only just used this month [url]http://www.9news.com/story/news/crime/2015/11/02/large-magazine-charge/75033338/[/url] The red parts of this state are trying to get rid of it or don't enforce it. Guns feel like an unfortunate part of life here.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49205419]Change the trend in what sense? The trend of regular acts of domestic terrorism and wanton gun violence gone unchecked, or the trends of people in this country turning a blind eye to them because they want to believe that having easy access to deadly weaponry designed for the express purpose of ending human lives as efficiently and impersonally as possible is somehow making people safer?[/QUOTE] nah dude its those fucking refugees I'll tell yea. Those are the ones doing all this. Domestic terrorism is fabricated by ISIS

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49205528]You can't do a driveby shooting with a knife. You can't walk into a room and kill everyone in it from the doorway with a knife. You can't have an armed standoff with police officers with a knife. Removing guns from the equation will not stop somebody from committing an act of violence if they are truly committed to doing so, but it will dramatically lower the ceiling on how much damage they are capable of doing, how quickly they are able to do, the conditions in which they're able to achieve it, etc. The hugely availability of handguns and small automatic weapons, and, to a lesser extent, high capacity rifles in the United States is directly contributing to the problem.[/QUOTE] Why were bayonet lugs part of the 1994 AWB, then? And still banned in several states. [editline]28th November 2015[/editline] Also, armed standoff with police with a knife [url]http://abc11.com/news/911-call-reveals-moments-before-police-standoff-/951942/[/url]

[QUOTE=LTJGPliskin;49205450]If we didn't have the entire American South holding back any form of progress, we should just ban any guns other than hunting rifles and shotguns altogether. Look at Australia, it worked for them.[/QUOTE] hey, we have pistols too

[QUOTE=Ridge;49206141]Why were bayonet lugs part of the 1994 AWB, then? And still banned in several states. [editline]28th November 2015[/editline] Also, armed standoff with police with a knife [url]http://abc11.com/news/911-call-reveals-moments-before-police-standoff-/951942/[/url][/QUOTE] Bad source. Only the perp was killed. Refutes your own point. Should reference the stabbings in the Chinese Metro or the school in Pittsburgh if you're trying to make a point about knives being dangerous in high-traffic areas. [editline]28th November 2015[/editline] Also, BDA, what measures are you backing in this conversation? A gun ban, a database, licensing being required at gun shows?

I wonder why people are so extreme about gun control. Just have strict screenings; anyone considered even remotely unstable and at risk of hurting themselves or others doesn't get them. You shouldn't inhibit normal people because crazy people exist. It's like taking all the toys in the 'garten away cuz some prick of a child refuses to play nice.

[QUOTE=MrHeadHopper;49206183]I wonder why people are so extreme about gun control. Just have strict screenings; anyone considered even remotely unstable and at risk of hurting themselves or others doesn't get them. You shouldn't inhibit normal people because crazy people exist. It's like taking all the toys in the 'garten away cuz some prick of a child refuses to play nice.[/QUOTE] HIPAA laws are the big thing preventing mental health from being part of background checks. Doctor-patient privacy and all that.

[QUOTE=sgman91;49205444]What trend are you talking about? We've seen massive decreases in the firearm homicide rate over the past few decades, it's been basically constant for a while now.[/QUOTE] This, people always forget that gun deaths have dropped dramatically while gun ownership has been relatively the same. [editline]29th November 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49205463]And yet 30,000 people a year are still killed by firearms. That is not an acceptable baseline.[/QUOTE] Uhhh, 14,000 you mean? Where the fuck did you get 30,000 from? The 1980's? [editline]29th November 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=RichyZ;49205473]‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens[/QUOTE] The only nation? Are you high?

Oh boy, here we go again. [QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49205419]Change the trend in what sense? The trend of regular acts of domestic terrorism and wanton gun violence gone unchecked, or the trends of people in this country turning a blind eye to them because they want to believe that having easy access to deadly weaponry designed for the express purpose of ending human lives as efficiently and impersonally as possible is somehow making people safer?[/QUOTE] My god damned Mosin Nagant was designed as a weapon of war with an effective range of well over 500 meters. It has not been fired out of anger at any living being for over a century. Just because firearms can be used to take lives, does not mean that an individual must use them for that purpose. Recreational shooting and hunting is kind of a big thing in this country. [QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49205463]And yet 30,000 people a year are still killed by firearms. That is not an acceptable baseline.[/QUOTE] 30 thousand deaths out of like what, 300 million guns floating around on the streets? That seems to be the general consensus on how many firearms there are in the US, although I’ll admit there is no real way to really keep track of how many people own them. Point is the ratio of firearms to firearm related deaths is actually minuscule, and the biggest reason why people keep hearing about shootings in the United States is due to the sheer size of the country. Also out of all the shootings that take place, how many of them were committed with firearms which were legally obtained by shooters? [QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49205528] The hugely availability of handguns and small automatic weapons, and, to a lesser extent, high capacity rifles in the United States is directly contributing to the problem.[/QUOTE] Ok sure, handguns are often used in crimes and I think there should be some more sensible regulations on who is allowed to have ANY firearm in general. Yeah there are plenty of people who probably shouldn’t have guns. However that last bit about the assault weapons and full auto firearms is a bunch of fear mongering from the media. Name one place where the average Joe Schmough can legally and easily obtain a fully automatic ANYTHING, and not have to pay the price of a luxury SUV. That just simply doesn’t happen because of the Hughes amendment and the NFA. I can think of only like 1 incident which may have happened with a legally registered machine gun, and the suspect in question was a police officer. Other than that, I’m not aware of any criminal offenses that have been perpetrated with a legally registered machinegun within the last 30 years. It’s also pretty common knowledge that the majority of firearms related crimes are not committed with “assault weapons”. Again, handguns are probably a bigger issue there.

[QUOTE=Zezibesh;49205661]when was the last time people were killed with a legal fully automatic weapon in the US anyway?[/QUOTE] There have been 2 homicides with a legally owned automatic weapon in the US, one in the 30's, and in the 80's I believe. [editline]29th November 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=-nesto-;49205948]Fixing poverty will only stop a fraction of the problem, albeit a very large fraction. We also need to revamp our mental care, or suicides and mass shootings will still be a problem.[/QUOTE] How do you propose we find out who is currently mentally unstable or young people that might be mentally unstable? Mandatory rigorous psych tests every year?

[QUOTE=pgr2gamer;49205816]Have fun when your family can't defend themselves home alone because they don't own a gun and have no knowledge of CQC[/QUOTE] Every day that passes I worry about this. How am I supposed to defend myself against a crazy person kicking my door down and stabbing me and my entire family to death when I have no guns to defend myself with??

A lot of people have guns who really shouldn't. But the vast majority of gun owners are responsible, law abiding citizens. Do you punish the majority for the actions of the minority? America doesn't work that way. That means there needs to be a finer solution than "ban all guns" or "do nothing". But the gridlock in Congress obstructs any useful bills and individual states' irresponsible handling of gun control laws has turned public opinion sharply away from any kind of gun control. NY, for example, got support from gun owners by legislating that its new registry couldn't be used for confiscation - then changed the law and said "if you don't turn them in we're going to come take them". American people do not trust the government [I]not[/I] to fuck them over. It's a bad situation. Retards on both sides have galvanized the rest of us. I'm a gun owner - it came naturally with my interest in antique machines and nick-nacks. I own some pretty historic pieces, most dating to the early 1900s, and I enjoy shooting them as a hobby, so any solution I agree with is going to have to facilitate that.

[QUOTE=SIRIUS;49205429]It really is past the time for better gun control[/QUOTE] This. It's a huge issue in this country I agree, but what do you people propose we do at this point? We're well past the point of no return, I don't see what can be done at this point that would really make a difference, at least as far as actually getting the millions guns off the streets goes. If someone really wants to get a gun and shoot up god knows what, they're going to no matter what unless they're stopped before that happens somehow. It's just too easy to get one, and I don't think any amount of legislation will change that.

[QUOTE=SpaceGhost;49206252]There have been 2 homicides with a legally owned automatic weapon in the US, one in the 30's, and in the 80's I believe.[/QUOTE] And both times committed by police officers.

[QUOTE=coldroll5;49205745]Exactly people in Australia are more logical than Americans.[/QUOTE] More like Australian hate freedom more than Americans.