Columbia Student Will Carry a Mattress Everywhere Until Her Alleged Rapist Is Expelled - Polidicks

[QUOTE=asteroidrules;45878205]No but they're strong evidence of it, enough to justify further investigation. People drastically overstate the prevalence of false rape accusations, it's gotten to the point where many immediately assume that such allegations are always false when they're truthful about 95% of the time.[/QUOTE] Let's clear this up: Saying that someone is innocent until proven guilty is not the same as saying it's a false accusation. Just because you don't have enough evidence to prove it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. HOWEVER: You are REQUIRED to have SOLID EVIDENCE to PROVE someone is guilty. So it's completely likely that while they can't PROVE that he's guilty, he in fact is. But you can't prosecute him on probably.....

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45878215]On what evidence should he be detained? If we detained everyone on allegations of wrong doing our jails would be significantly more full. Unless they have forensic evidence against him, he should be free to roam around while they conduct an investigation. Say I walk into the police department and say "hey, i heard some weird shit last night, I think my neighbor was raping his kids", and that's all I say, and there's no other evidence against him; should he be detained based solely on my allegations of his wrong doing?[/QUOTE] That said, they most assuredly [I]should[/I] be conducting a thorough investigation.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45877544]I like how rape is one of those things that people are automatically guilty of, regardless of judicial involvement or not. Do they have proof that it was actually swept under the rug? Or is it just "not enough evidence to convict, no need to continue investigation".[/QUOTE] Unfortunately accusations for rape need to have gravity, if a dead body could explicitly tell police who committed the crime, don't you think that would weigh in on the investigation? Rape victims are living victims and witnesses to very serious crimes, if somebody winesses a murder you can be damn sure cops will follow up on it. Rape often happens in private spaces in which their can be few to no witnesses, if claims are not taken seriously and investigated then that merely allows rape occurrences to constantly slip under the radar without investigation. With this said however rape accusations that are proven completely false should be subject to severe punishment or psychiactric evaluation because of the seriousness of the accusation and the ramifications of misleading authorities and the public

[QUOTE=Saza;45877518]so because he allegedly raped someone he should be expelled? hope you like carrying that mattress cause he better not be without a fair investigation / trial[/QUOTE] way to completely ignore the entire point of the article.. its not to say that a rape accusation should carry the same weight as a conviction and trial, its to say that a rape accusation should carry the same weight as... a rape accusation. this story from the ny times provides a better explanation of why columbia is apparently so awful at handling sexual abuse cases: [quote]Among other allegations, the Columbia students say administrators tell those who file assault claims that they must not discuss their cases outside the confines of the campus disciplinary process, though similar practices at other schools have run afoul of federal regulators, and victim advocates call them blatantly illegal. The students also contend that campus counseling services pressure students not to report sexual assault or harassment, that disciplinary proceedings are handled by people ill-trained for the job, and that accusers are given less leeway than are the accused. “Perpetrators are allowed to reschedule the hearing multiple, multiple times, and survivors are not,” she said, “so we’ve seen cases where perpetrators who delay so long that survivors are forced to stay over the summer for a hearing and pay for housing.”[/quote] [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/25/nyregion/accusations-over-assault-at-columbia.html[/url]

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45877649]Innocent until proven guilty should apply to everyone, not just a select group.[/QUOTE] where is anybody saying he should be immediately sent to prison without trial? even in the post you are replying to, they are only saying that someone accused of rape by three different people should be investigated

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;45877756]Probably because this has happened before where false rape accusations got somebody expelled, potentially ruining the positive life they had ahead of them.[/QUOTE] theres a large margin between no investigation and pre-emptive expulsion or arrest [editline]3rd September 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=ilikecorn;45878284]And it shouldn't.[/QUOTE] my bad, that was meant to be "rape accusation" lol, perfect typo to completely ruin my entire post and for whatever reason the edit button doesnt work for me

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45878297]The article says that she'll continue doing this until her alleged rapist is expelled. The fact of the matter is, doing so would suggest that he's guilty in the first place, which is wrong, as our justice system is based on the idea that you're innocent until convicted by a jury of your peers. When you start making exemptions to that system, you undermine its existence in the first place.[/QUOTE] i think its clear the overall point of her protest/campaign is that she wants the university to investigate the case and act accordingly.. clearly she believes she was raped and he is deserving of expulsion as a result, but shes hardly implying he should be expelled outright just for the accusation. [editline]3rd September 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=ilikecorn;45878297]My point is: He shouldn't be expelled from school just because there's an allegation against him. Legally speaking an allegation means nothing without a conviction, the school shouldn't sit and say "yea, maybe he did rape you, so we'll expel him until he proves himself innocent". Which is what the student in the article is wanting, her alleged rapist to be expelled.[/QUOTE] i completely agree, my divergence here is that i dont think the students protest represents a desire for the entire system of trial and conviction to be circumvented just because of an accusation, i think she is asking for expulsion instead of explicitly saying "investigation" simply because she very much believes she was raped. it should be easy to see from her perspective and understand why she would use that wording, and to see that she isnt trying to deconstruct the system of trial and justice but simply asking that it be utilized

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45878297]The article says that she'll continue doing this until her alleged rapist is expelled. The fact of the matter is, doing so would suggest that he's guilty in the first place, which is wrong, as our justice system is based on the idea that you're innocent until convicted by a jury of your peers. When you start making exemptions to that system, you undermine its existence in the first place. My point is: He shouldn't be expelled from school just because there's an allegation against him. Legally speaking an allegation means nothing without a conviction, the school shouldn't sit and say "yea, maybe he did rape you, so we'll expel him until he proves himself innocent". Which is what the student in the article is wanting, her alleged rapist to be expelled.[/QUOTE] She wants her alleged rapist to be investigated by police and if found guilty yeah he's most likely gonna be expelled/in prison. No one's trying to bypass the legal system. You're chasing ghosts buddy.

[QUOTE=bbddi;45878313]i think its clear the overall point of her protest/campaign is that she wants the university to investigate the case and act accordingly.. clearly she believes she was raped and he is deserving of expulsion as a result, but shes hardly implying he should be expelled outright just for the accusation.[/QUOTE] She talks about the rape accusations and such, but she never says anything about any evidence or whatnot. She's throwing out the image that the university has failed them, but we don't have all of the facts. You can't expect a university to expel a student with no evidence of wrongdoing. I may have missed something, but I didn't hear or read any mention of evidence.....

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;45878343]She talks about the rape accusations and such, but she never says anything about any evidence or whatnot. She's throwing out the image that the university has failed them, but we don't have all of the facts. You can't expect a university to expel a student with no evidence of wrongdoing. I may have missed something, but I didn't hear or read any mention of evidence.....[/QUOTE] Perhaps it's because you're reading a five paragraph news article and not a formal police report?

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45878335]Yes, but even then without forensics you're not going to get a conviction. It's one vs one, and there's no physical evidence. If there is physical evidence, the state, by law, must retain it for several years; furthermore if she's having an issue she could go to the actual police if the university isn't providing the investigation that she so desires.[/QUOTE] i agree that there wont be much for the university to go on thanks to the lack of physical evidence, i just think an official investigation should be conducted out of principal, and alongside that columbia should address some of the other complaints levied against them [QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;45878343]She talks about the rape accusations and such, but she never says anything about any evidence or whatnot. She's throwing out the image that the university has failed them, but we don't have all of the facts. You can't expect a university to expel a student with no evidence of wrongdoing. I may have missed something, but I didn't hear or read any mention of evidence.....[/QUOTE] if you read the article i linked to and quoted you would understand that there are bigger complaints regarding the handling of sexual abuse cases at columbia than just the lack of an expulsion of this student. theres (apparently) an overall air of unimportance, lack of training and priority, and bureaucracy that all serves to discourage students from reporting cases in the first place

[QUOTE=ZestyLemons;45877613]I believe he actually has three claims of alleged rape against him, this girl and two others. I don't get why people would defend him at that point, it should really be investigated by police.[/QUOTE] more people making the same claim doesn't make it more true

[QUOTE=Kondor;45878368]more people making the same claim doesn't make it more true[/QUOTE] It actually kinda makes it more likely to be true if the victims are completely unrelated and their statements about the perpetrator are consistent.

Tbh an expulsion is not the end of the world and after three separate accusations from three different people I think that's actually warranting of kicking him out on very reasonable suspicion, people get expelled for much more minor infractions than having three fucking rape accusations filed against them. The chances of him being a serial rapist v the chances of some carefully orchestrated conspiracy among three unrelated people to get him expelled, I think in comparing those binary possibilities the first seems a lot more likely, at least enough to get him off campus because of his mere risk level. If three people witnessed him setting buildings on fire I'm sure he'd be removed from campus because of his risk level

[QUOTE=Antdawg;45878221]Free to roam and potentially rape more women?[/QUOTE] Are you going to apply any critical thought to this issue beyond "well they said he was a rapist therefore it's true cause we all know no one makes mistakes!" Think harder.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;45878268]A rape victim can go to any medical facility and have forensic evidence collected, police reports filed, and can start receiving care immediately. Testimony alone isn't going to cut it in court, and the police are well aware of that.[/QUOTE] Although I'm sure some people do this, from my knowledge it tends to be a trait that rape victims tend to keep it a secret for as long as possible. That holds true for most types of abuse, actually. This is what makes it such a tricky thing: because in many cases, the guilt of the suspect is almost impossible to ascertain unless they confess or there is direct physical evidence, like in the instances where victims [I]do[/I] actually seek immediate assistance. [editline]3rd September 2014[/editline] I don't want to say that anybody should be guilty before they're properly tried, but it is still very difficult to get conclusive evidence of most rapes having ever taken place.

He can be suspended, he can have his name cleared, he can be compensated for lost time, any number of reparations can be made and rectified Another victim however, can not un-rape herself. How the fuck is there are argument against this, somebody under extreme suspicion is a tangible danger to people on campus

You cant just say "he's guilty" and expect him to instantly be thrown into jail. There needs to be a proper investigation to it.

[QUOTE=hypno-toad;45878710]He can be suspended, he can have his name cleared, he can be compensated for lost time, any number of reparations can be made and rectified Another victim however, can not un-rape herself. How the fuck is there are argument against this, somebody under extreme suspicion is a tangible danger to people on campus[/QUOTE] Except this is [I]hearsay[/I]. Suspend him when you actually have some evidence but until then he has every right to walk free.

[QUOTE=ZestyLemons;45877613]I believe he actually has three claims of alleged rape against him, this girl and two others. I don't get why people would defend him at that point, it should really be investigated by police.[/QUOTE] Maybe these girls know each other and just want to ruin someones life. What is wrong about a fair process for him?

Let's make this clear: Everybody, no matter how scummy, is entitled to due process. Even if they're directly caught in the act, they have to be dealt with expeditiously by the proper authorities in such a way that they can't be accused of knee-jerk responses to a problem. It's very easy to fake crimes and lay false accusations on peoples' doorsteps if malice is intended to the victims of said accusations.

This needs to be investigated, and if the guy is guilty something really needs to be done about it. Im so tired of seeing sex offenders and rapists get away with it- both legally and socially, but if there is no evidence there is very little the school can do, they don't know if he actually did it. however, the guy should be monitored- not because of any guilty until proven innocent mindset but because if multiple students complained another student was bullying them, they wouldn't have to show a school or college the bruises before someone looked into it.

[QUOTE=fulgrim;45879045]but because if multiple students complained another student was bullying them, they wouldn't have to show a school or college the bruises before someone looked into it.[/QUOTE] But they would. And even then it probably wouldn't get looked into. Bullying is another crime that pretty much gets ignored outright by schools.

[QUOTE=Impact1986;45879011]Maybe these girls know each other and just want to ruin someones life. What is wrong about a fair process for him?[/QUOTE] I like how, in a situation as serious as being about a woman claiming to have been raped, where the university has clearly improperly investigated the claim, where two other students reported that the same student had assaulted them, where twenty-three students in total from this university alone have filed a complaint about the poor handling of sexual-abuse cases from the university, that the claims are simply dismissed by FPers because 'maybe the girls know each other'. As if that women are a part of this big conspiracy network just to go out and ruin the lives of people. As if it is the men that are generally the victims of rape. That women cannot actually be raped. That the victims are guilty until proven innocent.

[QUOTE=Antdawg;45879227]I like how, in a situation as serious as being about a woman claiming to have been raped, where the university has clearly improperly investigated the claim, where two other students reported that the same student had assaulted them, where twenty-three students in total from this university alone have filed a complaint about the poor handling of sexual-abuse cases from the university, that the claims are simply dismissed by FPers because 'maybe the girls know each other'. As if that women are a part of this big conspiracy network just to go out and ruin the lives of people. As if it is the men that are generally the victims of rape. That women cannot actually be raped. That the victims are guilty until proven innocent.[/QUOTE] You twist words around like the people who support Zoe Quinn. No one said anything about or suggested that women can't be raped or that men are the victims or rape here. What people really said was "This guy may be a criminal or not, but he should be given a fair process." I just gave an example of what could be which is another reason why there should be a fair process. Otherwise it turns into a witch hunt and that is something of the middle ages that should not exist in a civilized society.

[QUOTE=Antdawg;45879227]I like how, in a situation as serious as being about a woman claiming to have been raped, where the university has clearly improperly investigated the claim, where two other students reported that the same student had assaulted them, where twenty-three students in total from this university alone have filed a complaint about the poor handling of sexual-abuse cases from the university, that the claims are simply dismissed by FPers because 'maybe the girls know each other'. As if that women are a part of this big conspiracy network just to go out and ruin the lives of people. As if it is the men that are generally the victims of rape. That women cannot actually be raped. That the victims are guilty until proven innocent.[/QUOTE] We're not dismissing them. We're saying that your can't convict someone on another persons word. If they are to be expelled your need [I]evidence[/I]. Not to mention [I]there are[/I] people who have gone out and falsely claimed they were raped to tarnish someone's name. No one here has said 'women can't be raped'. Stop putting words in our mouths. [editline]3rd September 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Impact1986;45879266]What people really said was "This guy may be a criminal or not, but he should be given a fair process." [/QUOTE] Further, we're saying 'Innocent until proven guilty'.

What I don't get is why anyone would go to the university when they're raped instead of the police.

[QUOTE=DaMastez;45879330]What I don't get is why anyone would go to the university when they're raped instead of the police.[/QUOTE] Yea, it's like people who go to the press instead of the police for quite a few crimes. It stinks of not having any evidence but your word.

It's disgusting how often the police [b]don't[/b] take allegations seriously. If there isn't visible proof of force a lot of them write it off as 'no crime' and bully the victim into rescinding her statement. [QUOTE=Fourm Shark;45878980]You clearly lack an understanding about what just a rape accusation can actually do to a person's life.[/QUOTE] Do you have any understanding what so ever of how rape affects the victim? A person's reputation can be regained, a person's dignity, wellbeing and sense of worth isn't so easy. The flashbacks aren't so easy. The constant fear of coming into contact with the rapist again (e.g. passing them on the street), isn't so easy.

[QUOTE=Flapadar;45879356]It's disgusting how often the police [b]don't[/b] take allegations seriously. If there isn't visible proof of force a lot of them write it off as 'no crime' and bully the victim into rescinding her statement. Do you have any understanding what so ever of how rape affects the victim? A person's reputation can be regained, a person's dignity, wellbeing and sense of worth isn't so easy. The flashbacks aren't so easy. The constant fear of coming into contact with the rapist again (e.g. passing them on the street), isn't so easy.[/QUOTE] It is precisely because rape is such as serious crime that we must treat allegations of rape with equal seriousness. If someone is accused of rape and suspended, they will be regarded as guilty even if the charges are dismissed, only direct proof that the accusation is false will be enough to clear them in the minds of the general public and the people surrounding them. And that is very rare, so the majority of people accused of rape will be considered as guilty, regardless of guilt or innocence, evidence or the lack thereof, conviction or dismissal of charges By all means these allegations should be investigated (and by the police rather than the college), but suspension on mere hearsay would be unjust and is unnecessary, the chances of even a guilty rapist committing another rape while they know they are under investigation by the police for alleged rape would be very low.