Zimmerman trial: Neighbor testifies Trayvon Martin was straddling Zimmerman moments before fatal gun - Polidicks

If racial tensions are rising, sometimes it just takes one event to set it off. So they aren't rioting to 'accomplish' anything, they're rioting because the tension has overflowed. I'm not from Florida so I could be wrong, but I don't see widespread rioting happening over this case. I don't get a sense of a large enough backlash forming. In the Rodney King case, the bad guys who got away were cops. That made a huge difference in how pissed off people were. In this case, Zimmerman is not even a white guy, much less a cop.

Mostly people on twitter saying they're gonna riot, so safe to say that they're just bandwagoners: #justice4trayvon. And if they're not, there's just too much evidence backing up ZM's claim. Even the most ignorant people will feel an ounce of doubt regarding Trayvon's innocence, no one's gonna riot with doubt. They're gonna forgot about this in a week after the trial.

Apparently the defense will wrap it up today. Prosecution is dead anyway after they tried to argue with the guy who literally wrote the book on forensic evidence of gunshots, the tree theory was the nail in the coffin. [QUOTE=Big Dumb American;41383866]He said it in March, you dinkus. Unless he's planning on running for a third term, I think we can rule out "votes" as his motivation.[/QUOTE] [URL="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/23/obama-trayvon-martin-tragedy"]March last year[/URL] and the election was [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_2012"]November.[/URL] EDIT: [QUOTE=Nancy Grace on Twitter]I don’t care that #Zimmerman had a legal right to carry a gun—Jeffrey Dahmer had a legal right to knives & a boiling pot #ZimmermanTrial[/QUOTE] Words fail.

Nancy grace needs to go home

[QUOTE=Take yo;41389506]Mostly people on twitter saying they're gonna riot, so safe to say that they're just bandwagoners: #justice4trayvon. And if they're not, there's just too much evidence backing up ZM's claim. Even the most ignorant people will feel an ounce of doubt regarding Trayvon's innocence, no one's gonna riot with doubt. They're gonna forgot about this in a week after the trial.[/QUOTE] Never underestimate the stupidity of people in numbers

[QUOTE=redBadger;41393165]Nancy grace needs to go home[/QUOTE] [URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Grace#Controversies[/URL] She is a terrible person.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;41383866]He said it in March, you dinkus. Unless he's planning on running for a third term, I think we can rule out "votes" as his motivation.[/QUOTE] His performance will affect the next candidate for the democrats though

You can tell the prosecution team is really frustrated with this case. They seemed to have went in full-blown douche mode lately but the people on stand they are crossing aren't buckling under them which must only frustrate them even more.

I can't get a complete source because it apparently happened very recently, but I'm watching CNN right now and they were discussing how the prosecution brought out a life-sized foam dummy to reenact the positions that Zimmerman and Martin were in, according to the defense. The Prosecution was cross-examining one of the defense's witnesses, and using the dummy to show that it would be almost impossible for Zimmerman to have drawn his gun while Martin was on top of him, due to the weapon being holstered at his hip where Martin's thigh would have been sitting on top of it or blocking it from the front. The defense then used the same dummy to demonstrate that the position was consistent with Zimmerman's injuries, but when asked if Martin's gunshot wound likely came from that position, the witness responded that Martin could have been shot from numerous positions from the front. This forced the defense to concede some ground- they can't argue that Zimmerman drew his gun while Martin was on top of him, nor is it set in stone that Zimmerman fired the shot while Martin was on top of him. This leaves two possibilities: either Zimmerman had his gun drawn before the fight happened and was then in a position to shoot Martin while on his back, or Martin stopped attacking Zimmerman and was standing up, allowing Zimmerman to unholster and use his gun. The importance of these concessions is that (according to the people on CNN) it gives concrete evidence to a manslaughter claim, whereas before there was no concrete evidence.

[QUOTE=Sega Saturn;41395531]I can't get a complete source because it apparently happened very recently, but I'm watching CNN right now and they were discussing how the prosecution brought out a life-sized foam dummy to reenact the positions that Zimmerman and Martin were in, according to the defense. The Prosecution was cross-examining one of the defense's witnesses, and using the dummy to show that it would be almost impossible for Zimmerman to have drawn his gun while Martin was on top of him, due to the weapon being holstered at his hip where Martin's thigh would have been sitting on top of it or blocking it from the front. The defense then used the same dummy to demonstrate that the position was consistent with Zimmerman's injuries, but when asked if Martin's gunshot wound likely came from that position, the witness responded that Martin could have been shot from numerous positions from the front. This forced the defense to concede some ground- they can't argue that Zimmerman drew his gun while Martin was on top of him, nor is it set in stone that Zimmerman fired the shot while Martin was on top of him. This leaves two possibilities: either Zimmerman had his gun drawn before the fight happened and was then in a position to shoot Martin while on his back, or Martin stopped attacking Zimmerman and was standing up, allowing Zimmerman to unholster and use his gun. The importance of these concessions is that (according to the people on CNN) it gives concrete evidence to a manslaughter claim, whereas before there was no concrete evidence.[/QUOTE] yea just ignore the expert witness on gun shots that Trayvon was ontop while he was shot, and also the 2 other witnesses that testified that Trayvon was ontop.

[QUOTE=Take yo;41395621]yea just ignore the expert witness on gun shots that Trayvon was ontop while he was shot, and also the 2 other witnesses that testified that Trayvon was ontop.[/QUOTE] Would you actually read, please? The entirety of the evidence supports the idea that Martin was [B]on or over[/B] Zimmerman, but the evidence can't prove that the shot was fired while Martin was literally on top of Zimmerman, and the point of this cross examination is that if Zimmerman had fired from that exact position, he would have needed to have his gun drawn before Martin was on top of him.

[QUOTE=Take yo;41395621]yea just ignore the expert witness on gun shots that Trayvon was ontop while he was shot, and also the 2 other witnesses that testified that Trayvon was ontop.[/QUOTE] You should probably stop posting until you have a solid grasp on basic reading comprehension.

[QUOTE=Sega Saturn;41395531]I can't get a complete source because it apparently happened very recently, but I'm watching CNN...[/QUOTE] Watch the actual case, the majority of commentators are just attempting to make the case look interesting and not completely lop-sided against the prosecution as it is.

[QUOTE=Sega Saturn;41395661]Would you actually read, please? The entirety of the evidence supports the idea that Martin was [B]on or over[/B] Zimmerman, but the evidence can't prove that the shot was fired while Martin was literally on top of Zimmerman, and the point of this cross examination is that if Zimmerman had fired from that exact position, he would have needed to have his gun drawn before Martin was on top of him.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57592866-504083/george-zimmerman-trial-trayvon-martin-was-on-top-of-zimmerman-when-teen-was-shot-gunshot-wound-expert-testifies/[/url] How bout you read [quote]A nationally renowned gunshot wound expert testified Tuesday that Trayvon Martin's gunshot wound was consistent with accused murderer George Zimmerman's story that the teen was on top of him and leaning over when he was shot.[/quote]

[QUOTE=Lamar;41395803]Watch the actual case, the majority of commentators are just attempting to make the case look interesting and not completely lop-sided against the prosecution as it is. All Zimmerman needed to do was slide up slightly to re-position himself. That has been brought up in court, but it won't be brought up on CNN[/QUOTE] As the prosecution brought up during the trial, Zimmerman remarked after the incident that Martin "was up to his armpits" when talking about the position of his knees. He would have needed to slide backwards by about two feet, which is quite difficult if a nearly-200 pound person is sitting on you. The witness agreed that it was unlikely for Zimmerman to pull that off unless Martin was getting up. [editline]10th July 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Take yo;41395807][URL]http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57592866-504083/george-zimmerman-trial-trayvon-martin-was-on-top-of-zimmerman-when-teen-was-shot-gunshot-wound-expert-testifies/[/URL] How bout you read[/QUOTE] As I said, the experts agree that Martin was shot in the chest from someone who was below him. Since we know that pulling a gun from Zimmerman's position would not have been likely, we can say that either Zimmerman had his gun drawn before Martin started punching him, allowing Zimmerman to pull the trigger while in the position described by the defense, or Martin was in the process of getting up, allowing enough clearance for Zimmerman to get his gun out of its holster and shoot Martin while on his back. The two positions are consistent with the defense's claim that Martin was on top, but the circumstances surrounding the use of the gun are very different.

[QUOTE=Sega Saturn;41395900]As the prosecution brought up during the trial, Zimmerman remarked after the incident that Martin "was up to his armpits" when talking about the position of his knees. He would have needed to slide backwards by about two feet, which is quite difficult if a nearly-200 pound person is sitting on you. The witness agreed that it was unlikely for Zimmerman to pull that off unless Martin was getting up. [editline]10th July 2013[/editline] As I said, the experts agree that Martin was shot in the chest from someone who was below him. Since we know that pulling a gun from Zimmerman's position would not have been likely, we can say that either Zimmerman had his gun drawn before Martin started punching him, allowing Zimmerman to pull the trigger while in the position described by the defense, or Martin was in the process of getting up, allowing enough clearance for Zimmerman to get his gun out of its holster and shoot Martin while on his back. The two positions are consistent with the defense's claim that Martin was on top, but the circumstances surrounding the use of the gun are very different.[/QUOTE] Massive issues with this theory, why would Trayvon punch a guy holding a gun? If Zimmerman had the gun out why would he not aim it at Trayvon? also the gun touched Trayvons clothes so he must have been somewhat close and the shirt was hanging down (both verified by the witness who wrote the handbook on forensic pathology) so Trayvon must have been above and leaning over Zimmerman. [video=youtube;IDS3pBaY4Sg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDS3pBaY4Sg[/video] As for reaching the gun look at [URL="http://prommanow.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/salter-gnp-pena-full-mount.jpg"]this[/URL], the waistband is fully accessible and the legs are under the armpits like Zimmerman's testimony claims.

[QUOTE=benwaddi;41396611]Massive issues with this theory, why would Trayvon punch a guy holding a gun? If Zimmerman had the gun out why would he not aim it at Trayvon? also the gun touched Trayvons clothes so he must have been somewhat close and the shirt was hanging down (both verified by the witness who wrote the handbook on forensic pathology) so Trayvon must have been above and leaning over Zimmerman. [video=youtube;IDS3pBaY4Sg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDS3pBaY4Sg[/video] As for reaching the gun look at [URL="http://prommanow.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/salter-gnp-pena-full-mount.jpg"]this[/URL], the waistband is fully accessible and the legs are under the armpits like Zimmerman's testimony claims.[/QUOTE] As I've been saying since the first post, the new evidence doesn't contradict the idea that Martin was on top of Zimmerman. It calls into question whether Zimmerman had his gun drawn before the fight, and if not, whether Martin was in the process of getting onto his feet when he was shot, which could still be accomplished if, say, he was using one or both of his hands to push off the ground, giving Zimmerman access to his gun while remaining within arm's reach. As for the photo there, I don't believe the waistband being visible is equivalent to the gun being accessible. The man on the bottom has to reach over and around the other man's thigh and push the gun out of the holster in an overextended direction. I'm not sure whether Zimmerman had any sort of straps holding the gun in the holster, which would make the situation even more difficult for him considering he can't see his weapon and is getting punched in the face.

[QUOTE=Sega Saturn;41396790]As I've been saying since the first post, the new evidence doesn't contradict the idea that Martin was on top of Zimmerman. It calls into question whether Zimmerman had his gun drawn before the fight, and if not, whether Martin was in the process of getting onto his feet when he was shot, which could still be accomplished if, say, he was using one or both of his hands to push off the ground, giving Zimmerman access to his gun while remaining within arm's reach. As for the photo there, I don't believe the waistband being visible is equivalent to the gun being accessible. The man on the bottom has to reach over and around the other man's thigh and push the gun out of the holster in an overextended direction. I'm not sure whether Zimmerman had any sort of straps holding the gun in the holster, which would make the situation even more difficult for him considering he can't see his weapon and is getting punched in the face.[/QUOTE] Wait, why would Zimmerman call the cops then pull the gun out and prowl? He isn't Elmer Fudd. If he had his gun out why would Trayvon: A. attack him, B. Not try to grab it C. why would Zimmerman not use it earlier? D. tell DeeDee "this crazy cracka got a gun" or E. Scream for help saying "he has a gun" Nothing either man did supports the theory that Zimmerman having the gun out before the attack. Regarding Trayvon trying to get up, it means almost nothing since he still had leverage over Zimmerman and was standing over him one way or another. Self-defense either way. Worldstarhiphop has taught me enough that a guy standing over you might not have the best intentions AKA a boot to the skull. I doubt Trayvon was trying to disengage, unless he is ungodly slow. In the time it took him to stand and still be arms reach of a man laying down (without being held by the guy on the bottom) Zimmerman unlatched his sidearm, pulled it out, pressed it against Trayvon and fired. The most plausible situation is Trayvon saw Zimmerman going for his hip, he looked and saw the gun, stood/crouched/moved back to reach it from where he was knelt (remember Trayvon was right handed and the orientation of the gun in the holster). In the struggle Zimmerman pointed it at Trayvon who was now leaning over him and fired. Edit: The judge is doing everything to simultaneously assist the state and give plenty of reasons for a mistrial to the defense, maybe the politics have got to her and she is sick of it.

[QUOTE=benwaddi;41390292]Prosecution is dead anyway after they tried to argue with the guy who literally wrote the book on forensic evidence of gunshots, the tree theory was the nail in the coffin[/quote] Is there a video of this anywhere?

[QUOTE=Zephyrs;41398994]Is there a video of this anywhere?[/QUOTE] [video=youtube;MHqtL744jA8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHqtL744jA8[/video] The whole thing is hilarious about hearts being pulled out. The tree stuff is 23 mins in.

[QUOTE=benwaddi;41400198] The whole thing is hilarious about hearts being pulled out. The tree stuff is 23 mins in.[/QUOTE] oh man the doctors face.

[QUOTE=benwaddi;41400198][video=youtube;MHqtL744jA8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHqtL744jA8[/video] The whole thing is hilarious about hearts being pulled out. The tree stuff is 23 mins in.[/QUOTE] You know your in trouble when your a prosecuter and your ending your cross examination with "so what your saying is there are a lot of different possibility's".

So they could have possibly pulled off at least manslaughter now, or what? Still though, they have to show second degree murder, so in that aspect they're still boned

They can still get manslaughter as a lesser charge but nothing has shown he broke the rules of self defense. Closing statements tomorrow according to the judge. [QUOTE=O'Mara when asked about lesser charges]It doesn't apply. Self defense is self defense to everything. Self defense to murder, self defense to manslaughter, self defense to battery. What happened out there was not a crime. So in that context their shouidn't have been a second degree murder charge, and there shouldn't be any lessers. In addition I don't believe that factually a manslaughter charge would be presented. What George did was an intentional act in that he knew he was pulling the trigger. The reason why he did it was self defense and that doesn't suggest a manslaughter charge would be appropriate.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=benwaddi;41397626]Big post[/QUOTE] There's way too many variables to reach any conclusion. But if we're free to speculate, I might as well put forward my own theory. In Zimmerman's 911 call, he says he sees Martin looking at him, and that he briefly approaches before running off. Zimmerman then gets out of his car, remarking that Martin was running. He wraps up his 911 call while walking in the rain. He had parked his car at the corner of the street where the sidewalk connected to the next street over. That sidewalk had a T-intersection, with the second path running parallel to both streets, in the lots behind the houses. The second path leads to Martin's home. From that point forward, there is a large gap in witness testimony. According to Zimmerman, he walked straight through the cut-through, unaware that Martin had turned toward his house. As he was walking back to his car, having lost sight of Martin, the latter suddenly appeared and assaulted him at the intersection. We have no evidence to confirm or deny this part. Here's a good set of maps showing the locations: [url]http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/04/02/us/the-events-leading-to-the-shooting-of-trayvon-martin.html[/url] Visual witness testimony picks up after Zimmerman has lost a fight with Martin, with the latter on top of him, throwing punches at his face. The dummy demonstration showed that Zimmerman likely couldn't have pulled his gun while in this position. The only witness close enough to see and differentiate the two men went back inside to call police, so we can't tell when the gun was unholstered. My main issue with Zimmerman's description of events is that his stories have been inconsistent (originally he stated that Martin jumped out of the bushes, but later he dropped this detail. This could be explained as amnesia due to the traumatic event. I don't think he was intentionally lying.) One thing I believe is unlikely is the idea that Martin would jump Zimmerman if the latter was unaware of his presence. Why would Martin run away, toward his house and safety, and then turn around and jump a guy who's walking away? Given that Zimmerman didn't get out of his car until Martin started running, I wonder if Martin knew Zimmerman was on foot, and thinking the other would stay in his car, stopped running when he rounded the corner on the sidewalk. One witness (not Martin's "girlfriend") claims she overheard an argument between the two before the fight broke out. I think it's probable that Zimmerman walked up to the intersection, looked right, and immediately spotted Martin. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that Zimmerman shouted at Martin the way a police officer would, eg, "Hey, who are you? Where are you going?" In my mind, Martin would have been alarmed at that point and would have responded belligerently, eg "What the fuck do you want?" Not aware Zimmerman is armed, he walks up in a threatening manner. Several things could have happened there. This is the moment when Zimmerman probably went for his gun, as he believes he has confronted a burglar who is about to assault him. As Martin sees him reach for his hip, he panics, tackling Zimmerman. The two wrestle around briefly until Martin ends up on top, and begins punching Zimmerman repeatedly in the face. When I was in high school, I saw a few fights and they were all pretty similar, where a wannabe thug picks a weak opponent. The problem is that in school, there's an authority figure to break up the fight, but in Zimmerman's case, the cops were still a ways away, so Martin kept on punching until he had broken Zimmerman's nose and bruised his head. He isn't even thinking about the gun; he is hoping that someone will break up the fight to prevent Zimmerman from retaliating. Meanwhile, Zimmerman is on the bottom, yelling for help. He realizes that he can feel his gun on the ground near his hip, but initially restrains himself from shooting, hoping a resident will break up the fight. One man appears briefly, but then returns to his house to call the cops. Not sure if any alternative is possible, Zimmerman gets a grip on the pistol and shoots Martin in the chest. Martin, having been shot in the heart, stops immediately, and Zimmerman pushes him to the side where Martin wretches face-down on the ground. After a few moments, Martin is dead. Zimmerman didn't want to kill Martin, and it begins to dawn on him that the man he just shot was a high school age teenager who was unarmed and minding his own business until he showed up. He paces back and forth until the police arrive and frightened residents finally emerge from their houses. Zimmerman is psychologically traumatized and is probably in denial, and gives police an almost-accurate account of events. It's up to the jury at this point, and the ruling hinges on how they characterize the two men. If they see Martin as a thug who attacked Zimmerman unprovoked, and Zimmerman as a man who simply wanted to assist law-enforcement, it is likely he will be judged not guilty. If they see Martin as an alarmed teen and Zimmerman as an incompetent vigilante, they might still judge Zimmerman not guilty, or they might judge him guilty of manslaughter, due to his unwarranted intent to confront Martin with a firearm. One thing we know for sure is that the jury will not see Martin as a child and Zimmerman as a cold-blooded killer, like the prosecution has tried to paint him out to be, so he will not be convicted of murder.

Still self defense, Trayvon initiated the fight and failed to stop when Zimmerman screamed for help. But nothing disproves Zimmerman's testimony so far [I]without reasonable doubt[/I], the state isn't even arguing that point yet. If they can prove it I hope they do, no point having a dog in this race. Well closing statements are today so keep an eye/ear out. Like I said above the judge is trying to throw this so if he gets convicted of anything they can appeal and let the matter die out. The political bullshit (the cop fired, charges raised to murder 2, DOJ protection of anti-Zimmerman protests) is grounds for a lawsuit alone. So the jury will get back sometime next week, likely midweek to avoid a lot of pissed off people and a weekend with nothing to do. Eurgh apparently the New Black Panthers are busing people into Sanford.

so is he free yet

Wait a second guys....what if this is all actually a huge ad campaign for skittles?

[QUOTE=Carnage2323;41407411]Wait a second guys....what if this is all actually a huge ad campaign for skittles?[/QUOTE] you're a horrible person

State prosecutors have been fisting and found something, the greatest turd I have ever seen. George Zimmerman is being charged with..... CHILD ABUSE! Mr. West looks like he is going to go full on Walter White.