[QUOTE=Rusty100;44656981]obviously the most focus should be on helping the victims - but it's not that i'm out for punishment or revenge. i just think the least he deserves is to be alive when he's accused of his crimes. so he can feel whatever that might bring him. someone who commits this kind of shit isn't thinking about the mental repercussions it will have on the kid, they'll push that aside to get their rock off. before they're outta this world i would hope they can finally realise how much they hurt somebody (or many).[/QUOTE]
As soon as you start talking about what he [I]deserves,[/I] you [I]are[/I] out for punishment and revenge. Just forget about the fucker, he's gone. For sure we'll try our best to find out how to prevent things like it from happening in the future, [I](which is the point of punishment)[/I] but in this case there's nothing more that can be done. It would have been great if he realized how wrong it was, what he did, because that's the goal with justice... But he's dead already, he's obviously a lost cause.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;44656990]exactly - child abusers were more often than not abused as a child themselves. which is exactly why they should finally have their actions brought to light, so the damage they cause can become real to them and they can face the mental consequences.[/QUOTE]
mental consequence just seems like more punitive measures to me though, that i think ultimately serves nothing
most paedophiles aren't psychopaths though - they're dudes with a really unfortunate sexual preferences who should never act on them but sometimes do. a rapist and a paedophile isn't the same thing. a paedophile will groom a kid (usually) which is as much for them as it is for the kid, to make the whole thing FEEL like consensual sex, like it's what the kid wants to do. those people are wholly able to feel the full spectrum of human emotion. they just actively avoid most of it because the things they did are so fucked up, which is a lot easier to do when nobody else knows about it.
i mean, if we're considering someone that's never gonna be let free again, i guess when it comes to rehabilitation that could be quite a step
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;44657001]mental consequence just seems like more punitive measures to me though, that i think ultimately serves nothing[/QUOTE]
it's about the whole thing coming full circle - you shouldn't just bail before the final act - it renders the previous acts meaningless. if you catch my metaphor.
nothing is more final than death though
[QUOTE=Rusty100;44657012]it's about the whole thing coming full circle - you shouldn't just bail before the final act - it renders the previous acts meaningless. if you catch my metaphor.[/QUOTE]
The thought of what happens to the pedo type in jail when the Heat is on your trail is enough to make any predator commit suicide, I'm sure.
Just think..
All the pedophiles in South Park come face to face with Chris Hansen one day and commit suicide right there and then in that one Tourettes episode.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;44656957]yes. in my eyes you're about as dark on the inside as ones who commit such crimes.[/QUOTE]
I'm going to assume this is sarcasm, otherwise you're pretty much out of your mind for comparing a distanced support for something to actually pulling a trigger.
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;44656973]yeah like, almost always when you delve deeper into the people that do this kinda shit you find their histories of mental illness or child abuse and all that kinda shit[/QUOTE]
It'd be nice to do case studies on such criminals and learn how to detect them, maybe prevent them from succeeding in their crimes, maybe even stop them existing in the first place.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;44656981]someone who commits this kind of shit isn't thinking about the mental repercussions it will have on the kid, they'll push that aside to get their rock off. before they're outta this world i would hope they can finally realise how much they hurt somebody (or many).[/QUOTE]
Serial offenders aren't caught up in the moment. They have time to think and understand their actions, and even plan them. I don't think anybody's ever gotten so turned on that they've poured sleeping pills in to someone's food and planned to rape them.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;44657006]most paedophiles aren't psychopaths though - they're dudes with a really unfortunate sexual preferences who should never act on them but sometimes do. a rapist and a paedophile isn't the same thing. a paedophile will groom a kid (usually) which is as much for them as it is for the kid, to make the whole thing FEEL like consensual sex, like it's what the kid wants to do. those people are wholly able to feel the full spectrum of human emotion. they just actively avoid most of it because the things they did are so fucked up, which is a lot easier to do when nobody else knows about it.[/QUOTE]
I agree, but I think you're mixing up some definitions. A pedophile is just attracted to children and like you said only 'sometimes' act on it. I believe rapists and groomers, who may or may not be pedophiles (there's a power balance), are the ones that can't feel or ignore their feelings.
[QUOTE=Rusty100;44656990]exactly - child abusers were more often than not abused as a child themselves. which is exactly why they should finally have their actions brought to light, so the damage they cause can become real to them and they can face the mental consequences.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure that's just an urban legend. As far as I know there is no study that suggests even a correlation between being molested and becoming a molester.
[QUOTE=Aidan_088;44657066]I'm pretty sure that's just an urban legend. As far as I know there is no study that suggests even a correlation between being molested and becoming a molester.[/QUOTE]
for real? i'm pretty sure it's been pretty proven
[quote]It'd be nice to do case studies on such criminals and learn how to detect them, maybe [b]prevent them from succeeding in their crimes,[/b] maybe even stop them existing in the first place.[/quote]
[img]http://blog.fliptop.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/minority-report-precogs.jpeg[/img]
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/44/Minority_Report_Poster.jpg[/img]
?
[QUOTE=Rusty100;44657081]for real? i'm pretty sure it's been pretty proven[/QUOTE]
If it has I've never come across the study that proves it, or even suggests it. It was my understanding that pedophiles were born as pedophiles. Some people molest children out of desperation or as a power trip but they are not classified as pedophiles, as their primary sexual interest is in adults.
The myth probably stems from the old "gay vampirism" myth, which states that having a gay experience as a boy, usually with an older male, turned one into a homosexual. This is no longer the accepted view amongst psychologists.
Some people are beyond help and deserve to die.
There I said it, rate me dumbs all you want but you fucking know that all human's are NOT equal.
And I don't mean regular criminals, who were pushed by their situation in life to steal, or join a gang and murder. I mean serial killers, rapists, pedophiles and anyone else who will keep committing the crime until they are caught. They are waste of space and resources. I'm glad this fuck took his life.
I think some people are forgetting that prisons shouldn't be about punishment, it should either be for rehabilitating or keeping criminals from further hurting society.
Him killing himself is a good thing, because he can never hurt anybody again.
[QUOTE=Zonesylvania;44656789]Give that maid an award for having stolen the USB. Otherwise, none of this would have come to light.[/QUOTE]
Because they totally knew what would be on it?
[QUOTE=Aidan_088;44657108]If it has I've never come across the study that proves it, or even suggests it. It was my understanding that pedophiles were born as pedophiles. Some people molest children out of desperation or as a power trip but they are not classified as pedophiles, as their primary sexual interest is in adults.
The myth probably stems from the old "gay vampirism" myth, which states that having a gay experience as a boy, usually with an older male, turned one into a homosexual. This is no longer the accepted view amongst psychologists.[/QUOTE]
Really? You've never come across a study that linked being abused as a child to becoming the abuser?
Google "Kempe & Kempe 1978," it has some interesting stats on child abuse.
Basically, while most abused children do not grow up to become abusers, most abusive parents (and condemned murderers to boot) report having been abused as a child.
[editline]27th April 2014[/editline]
Although to be fair, that study looked at child abuse as a whole, not just sexual abuse. I'd provide more info but I'm on my phone right now.
It really sucked when the guy said he was molested as a child, and ever since has been preying on children himself. Wouldn't he - having been a victim of pedophilia - want to prevent that from happening to kids? Why would he want kids to end up just as fucked as he is.
[QUOTE=DeathDoom;44657655]Really? You've never come across a study that linked being abused as a child to becoming the abuser?
Well, you have now.
Google "Kempe & Kempe 1978," it has some interesting stats on child abuse.
Basically, while most abused children do not grow up to become abusers, most abusive parents (and condemned murderers to boot) report having been abused as a child.
[editline]27th April 2014[/editline]
Although to be fair, that study looked at child abuse as a whole, not just sexual abuse. I'd provide more info but I'm on my phone right now.[/QUOTE]
I meant sexual abuse or contact rather than physical abuse more generally. There are major differences between child abuse, child sexual abuse and unlawful sex with a minor. When all of these things are conflated one could draw the erroneous conclusion that experiencing sexual contact when beneath x age will make one become attracted to people beneath x age when in reality there is no evidence for this. Kempe and others have shown that physical abuse in children can lead to problems in later life including that individual becoming an abuser, but If I understand correctly they did not conclude that people who have sexual contact with an adult when they are beneath the local age of consent themselves become attracted to people below their local age of consent. Bruce Rind and others have shown that in most cases, providing violence or coercion isn’t involved and the individual is pubescent, the consequences of inter-generational sex are negligible to nonexistent.
The man in this case was a rapist, so it would make sense if he had been abused as a child. A distinction must still be drawn between pedophiles and rapists/ child abusers. It would also be fruitful to draw a further distinction between pedophiles, hebephiles, ephebophiles, teleiophiles etc. when discussing the effects and consequences of sexual abuse.
I think ultimately this confusion is caused by conflation, non-one ever really knows exactly what is being discussed when pedophilia is discussed as its actual definition and its media definition are so different.
[QUOTE=loopoo;44657796]It really sucked when the guy said he was molested as a child, and ever since has been preying on children himself. Wouldn't he - having been a victim of pedophilia - want to prevent that from happening to kids? Why would he want kids to end up just as fucked as he is.[/QUOTE]
Because he is fucked up. It seems like the rational decision not to inflict the same pain on others, but his decision making abilities are probably not the same as they would have been without that trauma.
[QUOTE=Jamsponge;44656820]I fucking hate it when criminals do this. This is the only time that I think suicide is selfish, when people do it to avoid facing any kind of punishment for the terrible things they've done.[/QUOTE]
yeah god dammit how dare anybody use their brainstem and realize that death is 10x more favorable than being miserable in every single aspect for the rest of your life
[QUOTE=DeathDoom;44657655]Really? You've never come across a study that linked being abused as a child to becoming the abuser?
Well, you have now.
Google "Kempe & Kempe 1978," it has some interesting stats on child abuse.
Basically, while most abused children do not grow up to become abusers, most abusive parents (and condemned murderers to boot) report having been abused as a child.
[editline]27th April 2014[/editline]
Although to be fair, that study looked at child abuse as a whole, not just sexual abuse. I'd provide more info but I'm on my phone right now.[/QUOTE]
Pretty terrible form to use a 36 year old source. That pretty much proves Aidan_088's point that we know better now than we did then.
Did the maid take the USB because she knew what was on them or was this a crazy coincidence?
[QUOTE=Aidan_088;44657839]I meant sexual abuse or contact rather than physical abuse more generally. There are major differences between child abuse, child sexual abuse and unlawful sex with a minor. When all of these things are conflated one could draw the erroneous conclusion that experiencing sexual contact when beneath x age will make one become attracted to people beneath x age when in reality there is no evidence for this. Kempe and others have shown that physical abuse in children can lead to problems in later life including that individual becoming an abuser, but If I understand correctly they did not conclude that people who have sexual contact with an adult when they are beneath the local age of consent themselves become attracted to people below their local age of consent. Bruce Rind and others have shown that in most cases, providing violence or coercion isn’t involved and the individual is pubescent, the consequences of inter-generational sex are negligible to nonexistent.
The man in this case was a rapist, so it would make sense if he had been abused as a child. A distinction must still be drawn between pedophiles and rapists/ child abusers. It would also be fruitful to draw a further distinction between pedophiles, hebephiles, ephebophiles, teleiophiles etc. when discussing the effects and consequences of sexual abuse.
I think ultimately this confusion is caused by conflation, non-one ever really knows exactly what is being discussed when pedophilia is discussed as its actual definition and its media definition are so different.[/QUOTE]
Oh, so what you're saying is that attraction to minors isn't correlated with (sexual) abuse as a child.
That makes a lot more sense actually.
[editline]27th April 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=outlawpickle;44658066]Pretty terrible form to use a 36 year old source. That pretty much proves Aidan_088's point that we know better now than we did then.[/QUOTE]
Eh, not really. Human psychology hasn't really changed all that much in the past 35 or so years, and while our understanding from then to now has certainly improved, it doesn't invalidate the study in question. Plus, the author of that source was nominated for the nobel prize--twice, once for his work in child abuse. He's the reason child abuse reporting laws exist in the US. Now if I were citing a psychoanalytic source from Freud's era, then yes, you would be right and that would be terrible form.
Some of psychology's most influential studies (Harlow's monkeys, Pavlov's dogs, etc.) are even older. And besides, there are plenty of [url=http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3358463]other sources[/url] our there that confirm what Kempe found.
However, being abused as a child as it relates to being sexually attracted to children is (apparently) a different story, which makes sense. Sexuality and sexual preferences are generally more influenced by nature than nurture.
-snip too mean-
[QUOTE=Jamsponge;44656820]I fucking hate it when criminals do this. This is the only time that I think suicide is selfish, when people do it to avoid facing any kind of punishment for the terrible things they've done.[/QUOTE]
So? The crime stops, why do you care what happens to the criminal?
[QUOTE=Berque-IL;44656918]Why do you believe capital punishment is bad?[/QUOTE]
Because it's murder.
[QUOTE=Jamsponge;44656820]I fucking hate it when criminals do this. This is the only time that I think suicide is selfish, when people do it to avoid facing any kind of punishment for the terrible things they've done.[/QUOTE]
What's the point of punishing them?
[QUOTE=Rubs10;44660646]What's the point of punishing them?[/QUOTE]
'Punishment' really wasn't the right word for me to use. I'd still much rather they were either rehabilitated, if that was possible, or put somewhere where they can't hurt anybody. Them killing themselves doesn't help anybody, not them, and not particularly the victims either.
[QUOTE=Rubs10;44660646]What's the point of punishing them?[/QUOTE]
Because some of them are disgusting perverts that prey on children for their own sexual fantasies/desires????
[editline].[/editline]
I'm not saying punish all of them but, the ones that act out on it should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.
Really? I thought if you obtain something that can incriminate others illegally, then that evidence therefore cannot be used to punish the person?? Meaning since the maid stole the usb, and she admitted to stealing it, then wouldn't it have to be disregarded?
I still think he was a fucked up person, and thank god he's gone.
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