148-90 vote in FAVOR of expanding overseas military engagements by Japan
47 replies, posted
Now Germany has to follow up and the world will be geat again!
[QUOTE=jA_cOp;48716477]You should read what I said. I never said anything about going to war on anyone, much less immediately and/or alone.[/QUOTE]You're talking about a "slippery slope" and I really don't think that's applicable here. Granted, I don't know much about Japan aside from tentacle porn, j-pop, and some history stuff, but I do know that your society doesn't exactly [i]want[/i] any of the things you're concerned about. Actually it's highly unlikely, but I think it's naive to rule out military force as a diplomatic option and to neglect your national defense like you guys have. There may come a day when the US pulls out, (very unlikely) and abandons the bases there... that would be bad for you guys.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48719244]You're talking about a "slippery slope" and I really don't think that's applicable here. Granted, I don't know much about Japan aside from tentacle porn, j-pop, and some history stuff, but I do know that your society doesn't exactly [i]want[/i] any of the things you're concerned about. Actually it's highly unlikely, but I think it's naive to rule out military force as a diplomatic option and to neglect your national defense like you guys have. There may come a day when the US pulls out, (very unlikely) and abandons the bases there... that would be bad for you guys.[/QUOTE]
Japan isn't likely to get invaded or involved in a war at all. The most likely candidate for military conflict is North Korea, and China is not supportive of them at all. South Korea isn't going to go to war with Japan or vice versa. China, Japan, and South Korea all have no plans for any military conflict or escalation in the near future and it looks unlikely.
Military force should be be the very last option in diplomacy, going by both pragmatism and morality.
[QUOTE=UserDirk580;48715617]I mean this in a genuinely curious way, what's the worst that could happen?[/QUOTE]
It pisses off a lot of people in the Asia region, japan really isn't good friends with it's neighbors
[editline]19th September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;48718174]Why does every discussion about Japan have to be about WW2?[/QUOTE]
Because japan did some serious war crimes and never really held accountable for any of them, which pissed off most the asian countries in the area
[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;48718174]Why does every discussion about Japan have to be about WW2?[/QUOTE]
Because people who weren't even born at the time think it was like 5 years ago, or seem to treat it as such
[editline]19th September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;48719375]It pisses off a lot of people in the Asia region, japan really isn't good friends with it's neighbors
Because japan did some serious war crimes and never really held accountable for any of them, which pissed off most the asian countries in the area[/QUOTE]
Because obviously the people in charge back then are the people in charge today, after almost 80 years.
[QUOTE=proch;48718308]Now Germany has to follow up and the world will be geat again![/QUOTE]
Germany has an army that they're actually allowed to call an army and send overseas though.
Simply influence from the US to hold back China.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48719244]You're talking about a "slippery slope" and I really don't think that's applicable here. Granted, I don't know much about Japan aside from tentacle porn, j-pop, and some history stuff, but I do know that your society doesn't exactly [i]want[/i] any of the things you're concerned about.[/QUOTE]
Society didn't want this legislation to go through either (see polls, protests, brawls in the Diet), but it happened anyway because Japan's democracy is dysfunctional and the LDP nearly has a monopoly on political power. There's also the issue that modern wars are initiated too fast for voters to respond.
My answer to the question "what's the [b]worst[/b] that could happen?" was hardly sensational, you're the one who blew it way out of proportion.
[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48719244]Actually it's highly unlikely, but I think it's naive to rule out military force as a diplomatic option and to neglect your national defense like you guys have. There may come a day when the US pulls out, (very unlikely) and abandons the bases there... that would be bad for you guys.[/QUOTE]
I don't agree to using military force as a diplomatic option (i.e. gunboat diplomacy), but regardless of that, Japan is clearly not neglecting its defense. The JSDF is one of the most well funded armed forces in the world and Japan has a military alliance with the US.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48719322]Japan isn't likely to get invaded or involved in a war at all. The most likely candidate for military conflict is North Korea, and China is not supportive of them at all. South Korea isn't going to go to war with Japan or vice versa. China, Japan, and South Korea all have no plans for any military conflict or escalation in the near future and it looks unlikely.
Military force should be be the very last option in diplomacy, going by both pragmatism and morality.[/QUOTE]
Logistical support for South Korea in a potential conflict with North Korea was one of the reasons cited by the administration for this bill, but that's not what this bill is really about at all, you have to look at the bigger picture. Nobody is worried about a lack of forces in a potential conflict with North Korea. South Korea and the US have got that covered. Sure, the US has lately indicated that it wants Japan to bear more of the "burden of security" in East Asia to lessen their own costs, but in the end the US will still have to be the one to support South Korea with "boots on the ground".
This bill is about the US wanting Japan to be able to use its forces to exert military pressure on China in the entire region. If it means that Japan will eventually be able to send troops to the Middle East (or potentially Africa), then that's a bonus.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48719322]
Military force should be be the very last option in diplomacy[/QUOTE]
Best to carry a big stick.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;48719322]Japan isn't likely to get invaded or involved in a war at all. The most likely candidate for military conflict is North Korea, and China is not supportive of them at all. South Korea isn't going to go to war with Japan or vice versa. China, Japan, and South Korea all have no plans for any military conflict or escalation in the near future and it looks unlikely.
Military force should be be the very last option in diplomacy, going by both pragmatism and morality.[/QUOTE]Of course, I completely agree with everything you've said here. All of that aside it's just generally a good idea to have a decent national defense force in place, not just for military reasons.
A large portion of what our military does is disaster relief and humanitarian aid, this wouldn't be possible without the level of logistical support or organization we're capable of fielding.
[QUOTE=jA_cOp;48721915]Society didn't want this legislation to go through either (see polls, protests, brawls in the Diet), but it happened anyway because Japan's democracy is dysfunctional and the LDP nearly has a monopoly on political power. There's also the issue that modern wars are initiated too fast for voters to respond.
My answer to the question "what's the [b]worst[/b] that could happen?" was hardly sensational, you're the one who blew it way out of proportion.[/QUOTE]You're absolutely right. You didn't do anything wrong and I took unrelated shit out on you, so really all I can do is apologize.
[QUOTE=jA_cOp;48721915]I don't agree to using military force as a diplomatic option (i.e. gunboat diplomacy), but regardless of that, Japan is clearly not neglecting its defense. The JSDF is one of the most well funded armed forces in the world and Japan has a military alliance with the US.[/QUOTE]Actually your military has retention issues and it's not well trained or experienced [i]at all[/i] so these are serious concerns. You do have a military alliance with us, but nobody will take you seriously if you try to stick up for yourself against the much larger and far more capable PLA (or specifically the PLAN) if we can't afford to enforce our interests in the Pacific. War isn't exactly a likely outcome, but parking a warship in the way of another warship and saying "fuck you we ain't moving" is a way to use military force [i]without[/i] violence. That might seem like an oxymoron but it's something we do quite often both at sea and in the air, as does Russia because it's just [i]annoying.[/i] These things are often used as talking points in diplomatic relations and they also send a message so there is a purpose for this.
[QUOTE=jA_cOp;48721915]Sure, the US has lately indicated that it wants Japan to bear more of the "burden of security" in East Asia to lessen their own costs, but in the end the US will still have to be the one to support South Korea with "boots on the ground".[/QUOTE]Why should we though? You're a major economic power and you enjoy all of the benefits of our efforts to keep things secure, you should be participating because that's [i]fair.[/i] South Korea would enjoy the comforting aspect that Japan would come to it's aid just like South Korea would come to your aid, (they absolutely would by the way, the ROKN would be within sight of your shores within an hour) so why shouldn't you?
We may want Japan to play a bigger role on the global stage but at the very most we'd likely get the same amount of effort as we get out of Denmark, and they're part of NATO. We could not expect more from your country at all, and I do think having a Japanese voice being [i]reluctant[/i] to wield military force is more beneficial that being unable to do it at all. Dissent from a cautious ally carries far, far more weight than one unwilling to help at all, wouldn't you agree?
[QUOTE=Antlerp;48718070]Exactly, Japan won't go all imperial because they know that the Americans will drop them another one[/QUOTE]
Jeez, what are you in middle school? There are so many reason's why Japan isn't going to go invading other countries again. I mean it's nonsensical to even suggest they might. Its just dumb
[editline]20th September 2015[/editline]
I mean suggesting they won't start invading other countries because the US would nuke then is duuuuuuuumb
[QUOTE=Antlerp;48718070]Exactly, Japan won't go all imperial because they know that the Americans will drop them another one[/QUOTE]
You have to be a literal spanner to think Japan fears America in any sort of way.
Japan and America are close Allies.
Gee people, it's been several decades since WWII, this isn't Imperial Japan. We're not gonna just straight up say "ok that country's ours now" and invade a country anymore.
What can I say though, I'm Japanese...
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;48723351]Best to carry a big stick.[/QUOTE]
Supreme excellence consists of breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
[QUOTE=daigennki;48724376]Gee people, it's been several decades since WWII, this isn't Imperial Japan. We're not gonna just straight up say "ok that country's ours now" and invade a country anymore.
What can I say though, I'm Japanese...[/QUOTE]
Average Facepuncher's knowledge about Japan consists of World History class, Wikipedia articles on WW2, and obscure Anime so some of the replys in here should be expected.
[QUOTE=*Freezorg*;48720013]
Because obviously the people in charge back then are the people in charge today, after almost 80 years.[/QUOTE]
No but the scars are still there, there were many upsets about the last speech japan gave on ww2 and war crimes
[editline]20th September 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=daigennki;48724376]Gee people, it's been several decades since WWII, this isn't Imperial Japan. We're not gonna just straight up say "ok that country's ours now" and invade a country anymore.
What can I say though, I'm Japanese...[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/08/14/432205333/japan-s-abe-notes-regret-and-past-apologies-in-wwii-speech[/url]
Doesn't change the fact that people are still pissed off at past events. Hell the Confederate and northerns states are still mad at eachouter
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
