• Men without friends a problem
    64 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Xephio;49583124]also you're not a real man unless you never go to the hospital for help, even if you have a life threatening disease. you just gotta take it, PUSSY[/QUOTE] First time I hear such crockety. [editline]22nd January 2016[/editline] I am in a really tight spot. I went abroad to UK for studies, so I have all my classmate-and-not friends back in Estonia. I am here with my girlfriend but we can only so much rely on talking to eachother that the loneliness is real. At least I am having a blast every time I am back in Estonia. To people who think they will lose contact with friends, fret not! Social networks and Skype exists for a reason. Quite a couple of my friends also went abroad to different places, but since we bonded so much during school years we still keep contact and meet up once we go back on holidays to Estonia.
[QUOTE=Davoc;49583487]pains me that once I finish school I'll pretty much lose any connection to people[/QUOTE] That's largely a choice though. I still have many friends from elementary and high school that I see at least once a month. In fact, one of my best and closest friends is a guy that were in the same class as me in elementary school. We weren't that great friends back then but a couple of years ago we bonded over our shared love of martial arts and training. Don't be afraid to call someone just because it has been a long time and you will be fine.
I hate the feeling that there are people without friends. Especially anyone who is genuinely a good guy, even if their time in isolation may have made them weird, which is easily changeable through listening, socializing, and so on. It makes me want to kill myself.
[QUOTE=Davoc;49583487]pains me that once I finish school I'll pretty much lose any connection to people[/QUOTE] Pick up that phone, call everyone you like just to "hear them and how it's going". That is. It will make you feel better + conversations might lead to something like meeting or you might hear something new. Really you don't need to try hard.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;49583977]I hate the feeling that there are people without friends. Especially anyone who is genuinely a good guy, even if their time in isolation may have made them weird, which is easily changeable through listening, socializing, and so on. [B]It makes me want to kill myself.[/B][/QUOTE] That escalated quickly.
The only time I told my friends about emotional issues is when I had a fucking breakdown. I wish it wasn't some pussy thing to tell people what's up
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;49583977]I hate the feeling that there are people without friends. Especially anyone who is genuinely a good guy, even if their time in isolation may have made them weird, which is easily changeable through listening, socializing, and so on. It makes me want to kill myself.[/QUOTE] Well how do we solve the problem where nobody wants to talk to these people specifically because they've become a little weird in their isolation?
[QUOTE=Taepodong-2;49584306]Well how do we solve the problem where nobody wants to talk to these people specifically because they've become a little weird in their isolation?[/QUOTE] I don't know, your insight on the matter would probably be as good as mine. It's an awkward issue. Not sure if I'm wasting my time here, or shit posting, or wtf am I doing, but let's try to think of something.. I find it hard to imagine having no friends at all, no one to call, not even siblings. I'm not sure if I can imagine anything worse even, [I]unless[/I] the person simply works this way, feeding itself through work, thriving even. Financially successful that is. But you know, for those that don't actually work alone and don't "thrive" in it (which I also find hard to imagine, but not in a sad way), ultimately I think it's up to them. You simply have to catch up to somebody, somehow. Reach for anyone who you could consider even the most remote "friend" who you've talked to before. Or just strike a new group at school perhaps, which can be hard maybe, or even a place like a comic store, some place. Meet even completely new people. Or even a group of semi-weirdos or "nerdes" if one doesn't feel confident enough to strike up some regular "party-goers." One can always attempt to progress, and not everything happens overnight. Just say "Hey what's up?" That's literally what I do to strangers, quite easily and fearlessly, and then go from there. I'm not even the most social person, and it also helps if most/everyone is newly and arrived at some new place, makes it easier. Or maybe start up smoking, which is a bad idea. And then ask some people if they ever smoke a little something else? Lol. Also speak a bit loudly and clearly, but also contain yourself and control what you say, and it should be fine. Also body language, it's a big part of conversation, especially when striking people at new. Some nod their head or wave their hand, some do more bodily motions while talking, some do less but we still do. Also fix up & look smart. Eventually, they'll find out that other people can be boring or unhappy sometimes too, with their own personal problems, and they're not alone anymore. Or, not alone with their problems anymore at least, and so on. What else..? [editline]22nd January 2016[/editline] Oh and, how can [I]we[/I] solve or help the problem, you ask? How can we who already have friends help those who don't, you ask? Well, by being open towards them, keeping the door always open so to speak. I would want to drive this sort of attitude to anyone. Now, I don't really expect already established groups of friends to actively seek for lonely dudes to join up and help them, to make it nice and easy for them to get friends, but it's also an option. But takes fairness from their side.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;49584773]I don't know, your insight on the matter would probably be as good as mine. It's an awkward issue. Not sure if I'm wasting my time here, or shit posting, or wtf am I doing, but let's try to think of something.. I find it hard to imagine having no friends at all, no one to call, not even siblings. I'm not sure if I can imagine anything worse even, [I]unless[/I] the person simply works this way, feeding itself through work, thriving even. Financially successful that is. But you know, for those that don't actually work alone and don't "thrive" in it (which I also find hard to imagine, but not in a sad way), ultimately I think it's up to them. You simply have to catch up to somebody, somehow. Reach for anyone who you could consider even the most remote "friend" who you've talked to before. Or just strike a new group at school perhaps, which can be hard maybe, or even a place like a comic store, some place. Meet even completely new people. Or even a group of semi-weirdos or "nerdes" if one doesn't feel confident enough to strike up some regular "party-goers." One can always attempt to progress, and not everything happens overnight. Just say "Hey what's up?" That's literally what I do to strangers, quite easily and fearlessly, and then go from there. I'm not even the most social person, and it also helps if most/everyone is newly and arrived at some new place, makes it easier. Or maybe start up smoking, which is a bad idea. And then ask some people if they ever smoke a little something else? Lol. Also speak a bit loudly and clearly, but also contain yourself and control what you say, and it should be fine. Also body language, it's a big part of conversation, especially when striking people at new. Some nod their head or wave their hand, some do more bodily motions while talking, some do less but we still do. Also fix up & look smart. Eventually, they'll find out that other people can be boring or unhappy sometimes too, with their own personal problems, and they're not alone anymore. Or, not alone with their problems anymore at least, and so on. What else..? [editline]22nd January 2016[/editline] Oh and, how can [I]we[/I] solve or help the problem, you ask? How can we who already have friends help those who don't, you ask? Well, by being open towards them, keeping the door always open so to speak. I would want to drive this sort of attitude to anyone. Now, I don't really expect already established groups of friends to actively seek for lonely dudes to join up and help them, to make it nice and easy for them to get friends, but it's also an option. But takes fairness from their side.[/QUOTE] One thing I was going to say last night, I honestly don't think this is the kind of problem as what the media is selling it to be. In fact, I think the real problem is that we live in a high-maintenance society that has this bizarre emotional neediness to always be connected with each other (whether it be with phones or computers, social media apps or websites, etc.) and cannot stand isolation or quietness; "you have to be in touch with somebody and must have friends, or else you're a failure and the rest of us are going to look at you funny and not want anything to do with you". It works a lot like the whole "keeping up with the Joneses" concept: you have to be interconnected, you cannot and should not be by yourself, etc. "How many FB friends have you got? Why do you never make statuses on it? Why don't you have Snapchat?" And so on and so forth. Being alone and loneliness are two different things, but the thing about both of them is that they're still equally natural and perfectly normal parts of life; to be alone is just to be by yourself, loneliness is a feeling not only of being by yourself but that you additionally have nobody who you can turn to. Now granted, social interaction is a very real need of human life as much as food or water or shelter are; we're social beings by nature, and we need it in order to survive (look into some research studies on the effects of isolation sometime). I'm not saying it isn't. What I'm saying is we've taken it to an extreme. People have not only lost touch about these things being perfectly normal parts of life, they've also lost the ability to cope with them on their own and have no social self-reliance apparently. They always have to turn to other people for help and cannot resolve these things on their own. That's bad, especially because, again, part of living a normal life is learning to be alone with yourself. And with that will come times where you feel lonely, and you must learn to live with this loneliness. It's good to develop coping strategies; running to somebody for help honestly to me just seems like they're fleeing from discomfort rather than facing it head-on like they should and accepting it as a normal part of themselves. We've basically come to a point in time though where technology and advertising and so on have revolutionized our society so much that we're addicted to social interaction and can't tolerate anything that deviates from this norm. People cannot function nearly as well as they should be able to on their own because there's a kind of crippling insecurity about being alone nowadays. It was probably always there even before the modern era, it's just that it's being made a bigger deal of now than what it was previously. And it's becoming a bigger issue now than what it was previously because of, again, societal changes-- particularly where technology what mainstream cultural perspectives are concerned. I've always been a loner, but I still have friends and plenty of other people I keep a friendly demeanor with. But I don't talk to any them about my feelings, unless they ask (even then, there's no guarantee I'll want to). I may not even talk to them in general for weeks or months at a time; it isn't because I don't love them, it's just because I don't feel an urgent need to be in touch with them all the time. Some of them get annoyed with this, because they on the other hand do; they're the kinds of people who can't stand not being in touch. I understand that everybody's different in terms of their levels of needs, but damn, this should never have become such a big issue as what it is now to where an entire society is trying to function (poorly at that) this way. Learn to be on your own. Learn to like being on your own (because whether people want to face facts or not, the fact of the matter is we all go through our lives alone; we can share parts and pieces here and there with others, but we're born alone and we die alone, and our feelings and experiences are unique to us). Learn how to cope with loneliness. Basically, in other words, learn how to be comfortable with yourself. That might be difficult as fuck, but it's not impossible, and the rewards are well worth it in the long run of things.
Why do I feel like this article is directed at me? I don't have many friends, and the few I do have, are either too busy to hang out, or avoided me over the holidays. And that's all without taking time to date anyone.
[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49590710]Govna, that story kinda showcases the problem. You don't want to share your feelings, even sometimes if asked. Why not? And humans are social creatures, you need to socialize for a litany of reasons.[/QUOTE] Because what my feelings are isn't necessarily what the feelings of others are, and what the feelings of others are isn't necessarily what my feelings are. So as far as I'm concerned from that perspective, it just doesn't matter. I never said that I don't [i]ever[/i] talk to them about my feelings, just that I usually don't. I'm more inclined to talk about them if they ask, but I might decide not to either. They can talk to me about their feelings if they want, but I don't feel a need to ask them. This is what I was getting at earlier when I was talking about learning to be on your own and learning to like being on your own. The biggest reason for this is just the fact that, yes, you do go through life on your own whether you choose to admit it or not. You might have parents and grandparents and siblings (in short: family) there alongside you, you might drag boyfriends and girlfriends into it and husbands and wives, you might have friends here and there. Or you might not have anybody at all. In either case, the endgame is this: your cognition of things is unique to you. What you experience, you experience yourself. Your feelings are yours and only yours. You go through life alone, and that's all there is to it. If you can accept this, then you'll acquire a lot of social self-reliance. If you want to talk about your feelings, fine. If you don't, fine. Sometimes I want to talk about mine; most of the time, I don't, because I know other people aren't going to relate to them the way that I do. It doesn't matter much one way or another to me. I'm really not an unhappy person, despite what some people try to project on me (I've been called a hermit, a shut-in, a loner; but again, that's projection, and it's incredibly revealing about how insecure they are about themselves). I like school, I like what I'm studying, I have friends and people I'm acquainted with, I have a place to live and do volunteer work that is fulfilling, I spend time with my family when I can, I travel every now and again. There's disappointments and problems here and there, sure, but that's life. And yeah, we are social creatures who need to socialize. But we don't need to socialize as much as we are, and we definitely place too much of a reliance on technology and social media to try and meet our needs (which regardless of what people think are not substitutes for face-to-face interaction). I think it's an addiction we've developed to both. Something is clearly wrong; [url=bigthink.com/ideafeed/scientists-think-loneliness-is-becoming-an-epidemic]we're more connected than ever, yet we're on average increasingly feeling more and more lonely[/url]. There's more insecurity, narcissism, dissatisfaction people are trying to deal with. It's sad to see how dysfunctional our society has become.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;49581651]There are a lot of feelings that people just don't want to hear about.[/QUOTE] Not true. And I feel like the idea that "no one wants to listen to my feelings" contributes.
I'm actually quite lucky that my male friends are good with their feelings and I can talk to them a lot about anything. I guess if you have friends who don't, maybe you need to start it and they will open up too.
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide[/url] MAN UP THO
This is a known issue that is spreading to younger and younger men/boys. Its theorized that the lack of close friends alongside other factors such as suppression of emotions is what leads to high suicide rates amidst boys and men. And the older you get the more it snowballs.
i would argue that men withholding their feelings is more of a social consequence, as someone who doesn't use alcohol i do find it hard to communicate openly with other male friends but when it does happen it comes naturally and easily. it's fulfilling to actually speak your mind and open up, and while i can see how alcohol can remove those inhibitions, it is possible to do so without it in the case of many people i've met. i don't want to speak against alcohol use because i don't have a strong personal opinion on the matter, but i will say that i find it a bit disheartening that people [I]need[/I] alcohol to communicate openly these days. i know lots of people that can communicate openly without it, so i hope that one day the social stigma can be reversed for everyone.
You know something is wrong with our cultures hormones and mental health when everyone you know on the internet says they can't make even a [I]single[/I] damn friend. I am a loser but at least i have a few best friends i can count on. its not hard. It's fucked up, theres no excuse unless you are seriously weird or ugly, dont give me that depression shit. I was depressed and I could still find other friends that were also depressed.
I basically quit talking to all of my friends I had in high school because they quit talking to me and they were the type of people who think feelings make you gay or some shit. Literally, all the best friends I have now I met online. My only issue now that I'm in college is I just feel like people are going to be the same way they were in high school, which I should really get over if I ever plan on making new friends. IMO, the whole issue of guys not talking about their feelings have partly to due with the attitude people have about feelings in middle school and high school.
Just raise your kids and convey that communicating your emotions is a healthy and non-shameful thing to do. I don't mean [I]just[/I] as in that's the solution to the whole shabang, but it's something that can be done.
[QUOTE=Swilly;49596426]This is a known issue that is spreading to younger and younger men/boys. Its theorized that the lack of close friends alongside other factors such as suppression of emotions is what leads to high suicide rates amidst boys and men. And the older you get the more it snowballs.[/QUOTE] Christ, just what I needed to hear. My experience in high-school was like hell on earth to me and it affected me enough that nowadays one half of me desperately wants to meet new people, hang out, have fun and laugh our asses off, while the other half actively pushes everyone away to prevent being hurt anymore. It fucking sucks because I'm literally fighting against myself and I can't even talk about it with anyone, not even with my sister which has been like a guardian angel my whole life. Right now the only friends I have are on the other side of the screen, and while I get on well with them the fear of being hurt yet again stops me from going any further. The worst part is that one of those friends lives in the same city as me and I can't fucking man up and meet with him. And the fact that right now literally everyone in my class is 10-15 years older than me doesn't help to make new friends, even if I could. This shit sucks and I'm afraid it will go worse over time. And no I won't go to yet another therapist, I think after 5 falied attempts I lost all faith in them.
[QUOTE=Keelwar;49598023]i would argue that men withholding their feelings is more of a social consequence, as someone who doesn't use alcohol i do find it hard to communicate openly with other male friends but when it does happen it comes naturally and easily. it's fulfilling to actually speak your mind and open up, and while i can see how alcohol can remove those inhibitions, it is possible to do so without it in the case of many people i've met. i don't want to speak against alcohol use because i don't have a strong personal opinion on the matter, but i will say that i find it a bit disheartening that people [I]need[/I] alcohol to communicate openly these days. i know lots of people that can communicate openly without it, so i hope that one day the social stigma can be reversed for everyone.[/QUOTE] It's not these days, men in the past were traditionally far more stoic and withholding of their emotions than now. The reason a lot of the baby boomers and the like were so renowned for being functional alcoholics, sipping whiskey and sitting in a dingy bar until 1am every other night, was probably that they too deeply struggled with being able to be open and honest without chemicals to reduce inhibitions I've never had problems making friends in the past, but I've recently moved from England to Malta for work, and the culture here has been very jarring in trying to leave a good impression. A lot of the stuff people in the UK seem to like about me tends to go over a lot of people's heads.
I'm in my my early twenties and unfortunately have no friends or socialising outside work, so I had my mid-life crisis early. At least now I can listen to '80s power ballads with the top down driving into the sunset in style.
[QUOTE=Teddybeer;49610162]Meh. After having lived through someone I called a best friend drinking himself almost to death (always fun to need to check if someone is still alive and drag them to bed) and still sticking around while others were considering to leave. The time I hit my low and asked for some time in some bullshit way he decided to cut all ties. Sure it was fun at times, but I'm a quiet introvert that needs some space. When I go to a bar and a friend takes a piss I shutdown and once a bartender offered me water as they thought something was wrong. Alcohol does nothing more than fuck up being able to walk. So after a bit more than a year of being "alone" I don't feel lonely, at all.[/QUOTE] I had the same thing happen to me at the bar, it's annoying that a lot of people think there is something wrong with you just because you don't talk 24/7 and it's even worse when you are young and think there is something wrong with yourself. I like to sit down with a drink and just thínk once in a while, being alone without feeling lonely is somethin you "learn" IMO.
I have a feeling a lot of young boys and men have untreated social anxiety. I have social anxiety and have struggled all my life with it, I finally went to some support groups and was quite surprised. As a general statistic more often women seek out mental health treatment than men, but these groups had a much, much higher ratio of men than women. I've listened to their stories, some about men marrying their love and moving, but they don't mesh with their wife's friends and basically only have their wife to talk to; boys being bullied throughout school and coming out of it scared, friendless with trust issues; college grads who couldn't handle parties and ended up being reclusive and graduating with no friends; men who lost their best friends over petty stuff and then struggled to be social in any way; men from other countries who moved here but have no friends and have no idea how to socialize; depressed men who have no energy to handle the stress of socializing; loners who just didn't want friends but are now 40 and realize they have no one in their lives. The advice I can give anyone is if you're depressed, anxious, or just have no clue how to start making friends is to look for help. Therapists, counselors, support groups are all immensely helpful. They're safe environments where you can let everything you've bottled up out, and can relate with tons of other men with similar issues. Meetup is a great site for finding things to do with other people. Having a focused activity to do makes it easier to socialize. And remember that sometimes you have to be the one that initiates conversations, and that people genuinely would like to talk to you. If someone invites you to something you won't enjoy, for instance coworkers (if you have them) might ask you to go to a bar or something, take them up on the offer even if you don't drink, go anyways, every day the more you see someone the easier it is to bond and you'll feel more comfortable talk and hang out. There are a lot of guys who like video games, they might not be into anime or obscure stuff but there's probably some kind of interest that you both share. If you're not into sports there's plenty of people who aren't either. Go to libraries, coffee shops, game stores, become a regular, eventually somebody will strike up conversation. Humans are normally social creatures, even introverts need someone to talk to, and it might seem daunting to make friends but it's possible and you just have to work at it.
I've always been a loner and never really gave a shit about whether I had friends or not. I dunno, I just never felt the need to get stuff off my chest, feelings don't fester inside me if I don't tell people about them or whatever. I've made some good friends in the military though, everyone having something in common and enduring mutual suffering facilitates the development of strong relationships. There may be a method in the madness as far as the military and everything sucking ass goes. I think what really needs to be eliminated is the notion you are somehow lesser or "missing out" on life by not having friends. There is nothing wrong with it. There is, however, something wrong if you want friends and don't have them. But if you are perfectly happy spending time by yourself doing your own thing, don't let anyone make you feel bad about it. You can be happy and enjoy life just as much by yourself as you can with other people.
[QUOTE=Govna;49590675]One thing I was going to say last night, I honestly don't think this is the kind of problem as what the media is selling it to be. In fact, I think the real problem is that we live in a high-maintenance society that has this bizarre emotional neediness to always be connected with each other (whether it be with phones or computers, social media apps or websites, etc.) and cannot stand isolation or quietness; "you have to be in touch with somebody and must have friends, or else you're a failure and the rest of us are going to look at you funny and not want anything to do with you". It works a lot like the whole "keeping up with the Joneses" concept: you have to be interconnected, you cannot and should not be by yourself, etc. "How many FB friends have you got? Why do you never make statuses on it? Why don't you have Snapchat?" And so on and so forth. Being alone and loneliness are two different things, but the thing about both of them is that they're still equally natural and perfectly normal parts of life; to be alone is just to be by yourself, loneliness is a feeling not only of being by yourself but that you additionally have nobody who you can turn to. Now granted, social interaction is a very real need of human life as much as food or water or shelter are; we're social beings by nature, and we need it in order to survive (look into some research studies on the effects of isolation sometime). I'm not saying it isn't. What I'm saying is we've taken it to an extreme. People have not only lost touch about these things being perfectly normal parts of life, they've also lost the ability to cope with them on their own and have no social self-reliance apparently. They always have to turn to other people for help and cannot resolve these things on their own. That's bad, especially because, again, part of living a normal life is learning to be alone with yourself. And with that will come times where you feel lonely, and you must learn to live with this loneliness. It's good to develop coping strategies; running to somebody for help honestly to me just seems like they're fleeing from discomfort rather than facing it head-on like they should and accepting it as a normal part of themselves. We've basically come to a point in time though where technology and advertising and so on have revolutionized our society so much that we're addicted to social interaction and can't tolerate anything that deviates from this norm. People cannot function nearly as well as they should be able to on their own because there's a kind of crippling insecurity about being alone nowadays. It was probably always there even before the modern era, it's just that it's being made a bigger deal of now than what it was previously. And it's becoming a bigger issue now than what it was previously because of, again, societal changes-- particularly where technology what mainstream cultural perspectives are concerned. I've always been a loner, but I still have friends and plenty of other people I keep a friendly demeanor with. But I don't talk to any them about my feelings, unless they ask (even then, there's no guarantee I'll want to). I may not even talk to them in general for weeks or months at a time; it isn't because I don't love them, it's just because I don't feel an urgent need to be in touch with them all the time. Some of them get annoyed with this, because they on the other hand do; they're the kinds of people who can't stand not being in touch. I understand that everybody's different in terms of their levels of needs, but damn, this should never have become such a big issue as what it is now to where an entire society is trying to function (poorly at that) this way. Learn to be on your own. Learn to like being on your own (because whether people want to face facts or not, the fact of the matter is we all go through our lives alone; we can share parts and pieces here and there with others, but we're born alone and we die alone, and our feelings and experiences are unique to us). Learn how to cope with loneliness. Basically, in other words, learn how to be comfortable with yourself. That might be difficult as fuck, but it's not impossible, and the rewards are well worth it in the long run of things.[/QUOTE] You're probably in the hermit minority but for the most of forever humans have lived all their time among their communities. That is until recently when industrial society came along there's just no necessity for being connected with anyone, and people are desperately trying to fill the void and find reasons to be connected with each other. Humans generally haven't adapted to work in solidarity but there's individual differences. Most people do not "go through their lives alone", and will suffer if they're forced to. I've been a loner a big chunk of my life and finding an awesome group of people to share my life with was the best thing to ever happen to me. Why, as a social person, learn to survive alone when you can thrive together?
I gave up really wasn't worth it. I talk to people online sometimes but only as acquaintances or twitch streams/message boards.
Having no "friends" is only bad because it isn't "normal", if you ain't "normal" you will be shunned.
[QUOTE=Combine 177;49613689]Having no "friends" is only bad because it isn't "normal", if you ain't "normal" you will be shunned.[/QUOTE] holy shit lol no that's not why having no friends is bad
Some of this may well fold into the field of adult attachment theory, one of the longest-standing and most thoroughly-proven models in psychology. The model relationship, and how many children will learn to interact with others (and manage, account for, and understand their emotions), is that of the child and parent. If the child-parent bond is developed unhealthily, it can lead to a number of personality dysfunctions. Commonly, this child-parent bond issue being damaged causes social issues that result in "peer-group rejection", an effect that just advances these dysfunctions in the individual. This leads to Avoidant personality dysfunction, and its subtypes "Fearful" and "Avoidant" along with the other main attachment dysfunction of which I forget the name of. The avoidant policy is to avoid opening up emotionally, either by simply rejecting close personal bonds and living in fear of being rejected or abandoned, or convincing oneself that they don't need these bonds or don't need friends anyways (dismissive-avoidant). It is somewhat rare, and I'm not trying to diagnose anyone in this thread or on fp or anything, but I have to wonder if this increasing trend isn't due to better recognition of this issue, but changes in how parenting is handled? It'd be interesting to do a proper study on this, accounting for the parental and childhood environment of men feeling like this and tracking them over a few years, then seeing what we can learn. This stuff is entirely fixable in adulthood, but it is early childhood development that sets the stage.
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