Donald Trump flips his stance on torture; killing terrorists families - Polidicks

[QUOTE=wystan;49879464]That makes no sense, you can support both you know. I never said it is the be all end all, it should just be an option.[/QUOTE] Why should it be an option? When all the evidence is against it, why should it still be an option? that is insanity.

[QUOTE=EcksDee;49879492]You've already lost everything you stand for by first saying "save Americans by any means necessary" and then going "It's just 0.1% of the population" Meanwhile, lets take the, around 150 US citizens who died of terror attacks in the past 6 years (the 50 was a typo sry). 150 us citizens who died in the past 6 years is 0.00000046% of the population. That's 0.00000046% IN THE PAST 6 YEARS. Meanwhile, extrapolate 40000 back 6 years, it's instead 0.08% (rounded up)[/QUOTE] No, but if you want to try and pull the think of all the people dying and it's your fault guilt trip shit, it's important to think of the big picture. As for American's killed, why stop at 6 years? Not like this type of terrorism has existed only since 2010. There are ways to prevent both these deaths and but I think it's dumb to bring in healthcare into the conversation since it was never relevant and compare it to terrorism.

[QUOTE=wystan;49879404]Excuse me for loving my country. [editline]6th March 2016[/editline] You're the one with the reasoning of if we can't be 100% of something we shouldn't try it.[/QUOTE] This is another issue. Your nationalism is fucking blinding. I'm not saying you shouldn't love your country, but there has to be some sort of line that you use to keep yourself from justifying horrible shit with nationalism. I've seen people post links for you by members of the CIA no less explaining why Torture is an ineffective method for getting information. People have been sitting here asking you what happens if an innocent person is tortured or how you know whether or not someone is just spouting false information to stop being tortured or when to believe what someone's saying while being tortured and your responses boil down to either "It'll save American lives" or "We haven't done it before so we don't know". Then you get defensive because people are pointing out how blind you are by nationalism and you just respond with "excuse me for loving my country". Nobody is bashing you for loving your country, they're bashing you because you're trying to justify something that has been proven by multiple sources not to work. Also, I never said you ARE CURRENTLY trolling, I said I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case following the election. I don't think that's the case right now, I think it's a case of overbearing nationalism induced by an overly charismatic billionaire causing an otherwise decent person to blindly follow his every word.

[QUOTE=Apache249;49879495]And I'm going to ask you again, since you failed to answer last time. How can you tell the difference between someone who's actually withholding information and someone who is innocent and actually doesn't know.[/QUOTE] It would help to know their history and affiliations, if they have ever been in a position that would make them privy to the information we desire. Once they are already in the chair, well I don't know I'm not a mentalist or administer torture but if you can tell when someone is lying or not, probably not too hard to know if someone is hiding something.

[QUOTE=wystan;49879510]No, but if you want to try and pull the think of all the people dying and it's your fault guilt trip shit, it's important to think of the big picture. As for American's killed, why stop at 6 years? Not like this type of terrorism has existed only since 2010. There are ways to prevent both these deaths and but I think it's dumb to bring in healthcare into the conversation since it was never relevant and compare it to terrorism.[/QUOTE] It is [B]COMPLETELY[/B] relevant to your mindset. You don't fucking care at all about protecting your fellow American, you're just using it as an excuse to say that torture is good, which just goes back to your sociopathy. If you [B]ACTUALLY[/B] cared about your country, and if you [B]ACTUALLY[/B] cared about each and every American life, you'd fucking be fighting for single payer healthcare, and a 15 dollar minimum wage, and a repeal of citizens united. You don't care for America, you don't care about American lives, you just wanna wave your dick around with some excuse that it's for the greater good. EVEN if you went back in time 100 years, the amount of Americans killed by terrorists would still be less than one year of Americans killed by people LIKE YOU who want to repeal healthcare. Now I'm leaving, I need to go study for my free university that I go to while I'm free of worrying about going bankrupt because of a fucking flu.

I love my country. [I]A lot[/I]. But I'm never going to use that as an excuse to support dumb shit.

[QUOTE=Apache249;49879534]I love my country. [I]A lot[/I]. But I'm never going to use that as an excuse to support dumb shit.[/QUOTE] It's like if Trump were to say "We need to nuke Russia because they're filthy pinko commies endangering American lives" even though they aren't currently doing anything to us, he'd believe it and be advocating blowing the fuck out of innocent people or causing WW3. If there is any one thing I've seen that is common among Trump supporters, it's that most of them are fine with hurting people.

[QUOTE=EcksDee;49879525]It is [B]COMPLETELY[/B] relevant to your mindset. You don't fucking care at all about protecting your fellow American, you're just using it as an excuse to say that torture is good, which just goes back to your sociopathy. If you [B]ACTUALLY[/B] cared about your country, and if you [B]ACTUALLY[/B] cared about each and every American life, you'd fucking be fighting for singly payer healthcare, and a 15 dollar minimum wage, and a repeal of citizens united. You don't care for America, you don't care about American lives, you just wanna wave your dick around with some excuse that it's for the greater good.[/QUOTE] No True Scotman's fallacy, nice. Having worked the federal minimum wage for most of my life and still being able to support myself on my own I can tell you it's fine if you are the least bit financially responsible. The 15$ wage is one of the worst ideas ever, making it more than twice as expensive to employ people drives up unemployment since employers have to fire staff or cut hours to compensate having to pay more, or they have to hike prices to compensate but that usually doesn't happen. This especially hurts small businesses. Additionally, currently 15$/hr is decent money is given for not-entry level work, positions people likely had to earn. If now being a burger flipper pays the same as an electrician I have no reason to do harder work for the same money.

[QUOTE=Spastik2D;49879553]It's like if Trump were to say "We need to nuke Russia because they're filthy pinko commies endangering American lives" even though they aren't currently doing anything to us, he'd believe it and be advocating blowing the fuck out of innocent people or causing WW3. If there is any one thing I've seen that is common among Trump supporters, it's that most of them are fine with hurting people.[/QUOTE] Violence is a part of life, humans are violent, and violence solves problems. Not to imply it should be the first option or it solves the problem permanently.

[QUOTE=wystan;49868328]Well the obvious move is to make torture not against any international law :v:[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=wystan;49868500]8th Amendment though, that's an important one, I don't want that going anywhere.[/QUOTE] remember that he believes it shouldn't be against international law, just against being used on US citizens It's OK to remove it as international law so long as it's not used on the US the same international law that protects the basic human rights of civilians of other countries

[QUOTE=J!NX;49879561]remember that he believes it shouldn't be against international law, just against being used on US citizens It's OK to remove it as international law so long as it's not used on the US the same international law that protects the basic human rights of civilians of other countries[/QUOTE] No, Americans should not be torturing Americans.

[QUOTE=wystan;49879560]Violence is a part of life, humans are violent, and violence solves problems. Not to imply it should be the first option or it solves the problem permanently.[/QUOTE] So you're saying if Trump wanted to have us nuke Russia because communism, you'd support it. Also, way to ignore my other post. Think I'll just quote it here until you acknowledge it. [QUOTE]This is another issue. Your nationalism is fucking blinding. I'm not saying you shouldn't love your country, but there has to be some sort of line that you use to keep yourself from justifying horrible shit with nationalism. I've seen people post links for you by members of the CIA no less explaining why Torture is an ineffective method for getting information. People have been sitting here asking you what happens if an innocent person is tortured or how you know whether or not someone is just spouting false information to stop being tortured or when to believe what someone's saying while being tortured and your responses boil down to either "It'll save American lives" or "We haven't done it before so we don't know". Then you get defensive because people are pointing out how blind you are by nationalism and you just respond with "excuse me for loving my country". Nobody is bashing you for loving your country, they're bashing you because you're trying to justify something that has been proven by multiple sources not to work. Also, I never said you ARE CURRENTLY trolling, I said I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case following the election. I don't think that's the case right now, I think it's a case of overbearing nationalism induced by an overly charismatic billionaire causing an otherwise decent person to blindly follow his every word.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=wystan;49879555]No True Scotman's fallacy, nice. Having worked the federal minimum wage for most of my life and still being able to support myself on my own I can tell you it's fine if you are the least bit financially responsible. The 15$ wage is one of the worst ideas ever, making it more than twice as expensive to employ people drives up unemployment since employers have to fire staff or cut hours to compensate having to pay more, or they have to hike prices to compensate but that usually doesn't happen. This especially hurts small businesses. Additionally, currently 15$/hr is decent money is given for not-entry level work, positions people likely had to earn. If now being a burger flipper pays the same as an electrician I have no reason to do harder work for the same money.[/QUOTE] [B]and yet every goddamn study on the minimum wage contradicts you in every single way ever.[/B] "2013 study by the Chicago Fed found that increasing the minimum wage even just to $9 would increase consumer spending by $28 billion." "Paying a higher wage to employees can also help employers cut costs in other ways, according to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. “Beyond simple supply and demand theory,” reads a comprehensive report on the economics of raising the minimum wage, “increasing the minimum wage may also spur businesses to operate more efficiently and employees to work harder.”" [B]"a Goldman Sachs analysis of the 13 states which have raised their minimum wage, found that “the states where the minimum wage went up had faster employment growth than the states where the minimum wage remained at its 2013 level.”"[/B]

[QUOTE=wystan;49879569]No, Americans should not be torturing Americans.[/QUOTE] that was exactly what I just said, that you said I was reminding people of previous points

[QUOTE=wystan;49879555]No True Scotman's fallacy, nice. Having worked the federal minimum wage for most of my life and still being able to support myself on my own I can tell you it's fine if you are the least bit financially responsible. The 15$ wage is one of the worst ideas ever, making it more than twice as expensive to employ people drives up unemployment since employers have to fire staff or cut hours to compensate having to pay more, or they have to hike prices to compensate but that usually doesn't happen. This especially hurts small businesses. Additionally, currently 15$/hr is decent money is given for not-entry level work, positions people likely had to earn. If now being a burger flipper pays the same as an electrician I have no reason to do harder work for the same money.[/QUOTE] have you ever considered that both are underpaid??? Also good fucking luck supporting yourself on minimum wage in Pennsylvania.

[QUOTE=wystan;49879560]Violence is a part of life, humans are violent, and violence solves problems. [/QUOTE] No it fucking doesn't and that's the goddamn point of these past 5 pages. Torture has NEVER given the USA ANY critical information NOR has it saved ANY lives, by the CIA's own FUCKING ADMISSION. Are you so goddamn sociopathic that you want to protect torture even when the goddamn [I]agencies that used it didn't produce any results with it[/I]

[QUOTE=EcksDee;49879571][B]and yet every goddamn study on the minimum wage contradicts you in every single way ever.[/B] "2013 study by the Chicago Fed found that increasing the minimum wage even just to $9 would increase consumer spending by $28 billion." "Paying a higher wage to employees can also help employers cut costs in other ways, according to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. “Beyond simple supply and demand theory,” reads a comprehensive report on the economics of raising the minimum wage, “increasing the minimum wage may also spur businesses to operate more efficiently and employees to work harder.”" [B]"a Goldman Sachs analysis of the 13 states which have raised their minimum wage, found that “the states where the minimum wage went up had faster employment growth than the states where the minimum wage remained at its 2013 level.”"[/B][/QUOTE] Big fucking difference between a 1.75$ increase and literally doubling it. Why not make the minimum wage 20$? Maybe 50$?

[QUOTE=wystan;49879560]Violence is a part of life, humans are violent, [B]and violence solves problems.[/B] Not to imply it should be the first option or it solves the problem permanently.[/QUOTE] And with that, I put you up there with FWL. Pretty sure you're fucking with us.

[QUOTE=wystan;49879583]Big fucking difference between a 1.75$ increase and literally doubling it. Why not make the minimum wage 20$? Maybe 50$?[/QUOTE] "“Why not $20 per hour? Why not $50?” critics have asked. And the answer is simple: because those who are fighting for an increase in the minimum wage are being pragmatic, not bombastic. Wages of $10.10 (federally) and $15 (in cities with a high cost of living, like New York and Seattle) are hourly dollar amounts that raise workers above the poverty line and increase their purchasing power, while also being feasible for businesses. [B]Research from the Policy Research and Economic Institute at the University of Massachusetts Amherst proves that these increases are absolutely possible without job loss."[/B]

[QUOTE=EcksDee;49879582]No it fucking doesn't and that's the goddamn point of these past 5 pages. Torture has NEVER given the USA ANY critical information NOR has it saved ANY lives, by the CIA's own FUCKING ADMISSION. Are you so goddamn sociopathic that you want to protect torture even when the goddamn [I]agencies that used it didn't produce any results with it[/I][/QUOTE] And you trust the CIA to be totally honest with the American public? And violence does solve problems, that is indisputable. [editline]6th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=UnidentifiedFlyingTard;49879584]And with that, I put you up there with FWL. Pretty sure you're fucking with us.[/QUOTE] Am I wrong?

[QUOTE=wystan;49879593]And you trust the CIA to be totally honest with the American public? And violence does solve problems, that is indisputable.[/QUOTE] Stop dodging me. Answer the question. If Trump said we need to nuke Russia, would you agree with him?

[QUOTE=wystan;49879593]And you trust the CIA to be totally honest with the American public? And violence does solve problems, that is indisputable. [/QUOTE] Ok so, "violence solves problems" "Torture is violence" "Torture has not ever in the history of the CIA ever solved any problems" One of these statements has to be wrong, and it's not the third one.

[QUOTE=wystan;49879593]And you trust the CIA to be totally honest with the American public? And violence does solve problems, that is indisputable. [editline]6th March 2016[/editline] Am I wrong?[/QUOTE] I trust that if the CIA wanted to silence people like myself, and other people who don't like torture for ethical reasons That the best way they could do that, would be to release undeniable proof that torture works. Logically, your side makes no sense

[QUOTE=EcksDee;49879591]"“Why not $20 per hour? Why not $50?” critics have asked. And the answer is simple: because those who are fighting for an increase in the minimum wage are being pragmatic, not bombastic. Wages of $10.10 (federally) and $15 (in cities with a high cost of living, like New York and Seattle) are hourly dollar amounts that raise workers above the poverty line and increase their purchasing power, while also being feasible for businesses. [B]Research from the Policy Research and Economic Institute at the University of Massachusetts Amherst proves that these increases are absolutely possible without job loss."[/B][/QUOTE] If jobs aren't lost then hours are cut or prices are hiked. [editline]6th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Spastik2D;49879601]Stop dodging me. Answer the question. If Trump said we need to nuke Russia, would you agree with him?[/QUOTE] No. And Trump wouldn't because him and Putin respect each other and will likely get along. [editline]6th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=EcksDee;49879604]Ok so, "violence solves problems" "Torture is violence" "Torture has not ever in the history of the CIA ever solved any problems" One of these statements has to be wrong, and it's not the third one.[/QUOTE] Another logically fallacy. [editline]6th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49879605]I trust that if the CIA wanted to silence people like myself, and other people who don't like torture for ethical reasons That the best way they could do that, would be to release undeniable proof that torture works. Logically, your side makes no sense[/QUOTE] No, they wouldn't do that because torture is ugly and people don't like the thought of it. There are things the public are better off not knowing. It would cause more of a public outcry if we openly tortured people and then bragged about how effective it is.

[QUOTE=wystan;49879606]If jobs aren't lost then hours are cut or prices are hiked. [editline]6th March 2016[/editline] No. And Trump wouldn't because him and Putin respect each other and will likely get along. [editline]6th March 2016[/editline] Another logically fallacy.[/QUOTE] First of all, GJ supporting a system that encourages the poor to stay poor while the rich get richer. You're everything that's wrong with America. Secondly, your God-King Trump already reversed his ideals on torture and has shown he has no idea ho the US military works. What makes you think he won't flip flop again?

Saying "oh that's a logical fallacy haha you're wrong" and actually disproving their point are two different things.

[QUOTE=kyle877;49879626]First of all, GJ supporting a system that encourages the poor to stay poor while the rich get richer. You're everything that's wrong with America. Secondly, your God-King Trump already reversed his ideals on torture and has shown he has no idea ho the US military works. What makes you think he won't flip flop again?[/QUOTE] Sweet, another personal attack. How many I have done to you all? I understand you hate capitalism which leads me to believe you've likely never worked a day in your life. Becoming more moderate is not flip flopping. [editline]6th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=1nfiniteseed;49879636]Saying "oh that's a logical fallacy haha you're wrong" and actually disproving their point are two different things.[/QUOTE] Their point is invalid since it is fallacious.

[QUOTE=wystan;49879606]If jobs aren't lost then hours are cut or prices are hiked.[/QUOTE] Again you ignored me. "A 2013 study by the Chicago Fed found that increasing the minimum wage even just to $9 would increase consumer spending by $28 billion. When spending—i.e. demand—increases, manufacturers and other purveyors of goods and services can actually charge less or at least avoid increasing their prices, because they’re increasing overall revenue." The wage-increase-price-hike is a myth. Prices go up, people still aren't buying as much as they were previously, employers then stick prices down, and those who previously bought will buy again, along with an increased clientele of those who couldnt afford to buy previously. And even if you are right about employment going down, it's still very much temporary. They fire the people who they can't afford to hire, their profits go up due to increased wages meaning increased buying power, they hire again.

[QUOTE=wystan;49879638]Sweet, another personal attack. How many I have done to you all? I understand you hate capitalism which leads me to believe you've likely never worked a day in your life. Becoming more moderate is not flip flopping.[/QUOTE] After doing time in the reserves (Ended up getting my leg fucked up on an exercise), I also worked at a bookbinding plant, a meat processing and distribution facility, and have been managing to scrape in enough money to barely stay afloat while job-hunting. I don't hate capitalism in theory. I hate American capitalism, because it's done nothing but keep me broke. But hey, don't mind me, I don't know what I'm talking about right? I haven't worked a day in my life, or ever been involved with the US Military.

[QUOTE=wystan;49879606] No, they wouldn't do that because torture is ugly and people don't like the thought of it. There are things the public are better off not knowing. It would cause more of a public outcry if we openly tortured people and then bragged about how effective it is.[/QUOTE] You love the thought of it and you're not that much of an outlier and being a rational person myself, I would take evidence, over emotion.