Donald Trump flips his stance on torture; killing terrorists families - Polidicks

[QUOTE=wystan;49879638]Sweet, another personal attack. How many I have done to you all? I understand you hate capitalism which leads me to believe you've likely never worked a day in your life. Becoming more moderate is not flip flopping. [editline]6th March 2016[/editline] Their point is invalid since it is fallacious.[/QUOTE] [url]https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy[/url]

[QUOTE=wystan;49879638]Sweet, another personal attack. How many I have done to you all? I understand you hate capitalism which leads me to believe you've likely never worked a day in your life. Becoming more moderate is not flip flopping. [editline]6th March 2016[/editline] Their point is invalid since it is fallacious.[/QUOTE] You know, for someone that follows a guy who's against people being offended, you sure do get offended by people attacking you. Like you're automatically jumping to the "You hate Capitalism and probably haven't worked a day in your life" bit. That doesn't come out until much later in the argument.

[QUOTE=wystan;49879638]Sweet, another personal attack. How many I have done to you all? I understand you hate capitalism which leads me to believe you've likely never worked a day in your life. Becoming more moderate is not flip flopping. [editline]6th March 2016[/editline] Their point is invalid since it is fallacious.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry but you're not an authority on capitalism anymore than anyone else who reads about it Also, that's not how you fucking argue dude Point out why it's fallacious(false) so that you can explain why it's invalid, you have done no such thing at any point in your posting history here resorting purely to "My feels"

[QUOTE=wystan;49879638] Their point is invalid since it is fallacious.[/QUOTE] 1. Claiming a logical fallacy doesn't mean jack shit if you can't actually point out said fallacious arguments. 2. Even if the arguments being presented here were fallacious, you seem to be fond of making fallacies yourself: [URL]https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-fallacy-fallacy[/URL]

[QUOTE=EcksDee;49879661]Again you ignored me. "A 2013 study by the Chicago Fed found that increasing the minimum wage even just to $9 would increase consumer spending by $28 billion. When spending—i.e. demand—increases, manufacturers and other purveyors of goods and services can actually charge less or at least avoid increasing their prices, because they’re increasing overall revenue." The wage-increase-price-hike is a myth. Prices go up, people still aren't buying as much as they were previously, employers then stick prices down, and those who previously bought will buy again, along with an increased clientele of those who couldnt afford to buy previously. And even if you are right about employment going down, it's still very much temporary. They fire the people who they can't afford to hire, their profits go up due to increased wages meaning increased buying power, they hire again.[/QUOTE] Explain how paying your employees more leads to more revenue. And you ignored my point. What is to stop the person from doing hard work at 15$ to just settle for entry level work that pays the same, you get paid what the job is worth. Minimum wage should stay a state issue and works fine as is if you are financially responsible. It isn't a myth, it's literally in my economics textbook.

[QUOTE=wystan;49879638]Sweet, another personal attack. How many I have done to you all? I understand you hate capitalism which leads me to believe you've likely never worked a day in your life. Becoming more moderate is not flip flopping. [editline]6th March 2016[/editline] Their point is invalid since it is fallacious.[/QUOTE] I own a business. I employ multiple people. I built it myself, and I didn't take any government subsidies. A $15 minimum wage is the necessary next step for us as a nation. You are a horrifying person to witness.

[QUOTE=Spastik2D;49879670]You know, for someone that follows a guy who's against people being offended, you sure do get offended by people attacking you. Like you're automatically jumping to the "You hate Capitalism and probably haven't worked a day in your life" bit. That doesn't come out until much later in the argument.[/QUOTE] I'm not offended, it just shows how you petty you all get when it comes to people who disagree with you.

[QUOTE=wystan;49879699]Explain how paying your employees more leads to more revenue. And you ignored my point. What is to stop the person from doing hard work at 15$ to just settle for entry level work that pays the same, you get paid what the job is worth. Minimum wage should stay a state issue and works fine as is if you are financially responsible. It isn't a myth, it's literally in my economics textbook.[/QUOTE] If people have more money then they have more money to spend who the fuck woulda thought [editline]6th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=wystan;49879703]I'm not offended, it just shows how you petty you all get when it comes to people who disagree with you.[/QUOTE] It's not that you "disagree". It's how you disagree. It's how you ignore our arguments, our posts, our points, everything, to nitpick on the fluff, the low hanging fruit, and how you continually ignore actual real world facts to insist you know best and that we are deluded into believing misinformation. It's laughably condescending and hilariously easy to see through. It's pathetic. It's not that you disagree. It's fucking how.

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49879707]If people have more money then they have more money to spend who the fuck woulda thought[/QUOTE] That doesn't mean the worker's wages are being spent back into the business. If I work at a factory and the factory now pays me more, the factory won't make more money.

[QUOTE=wystan;49879714]That doesn't mean the worker's wages are being spent back into the business. If I work at a factory and the factory now pays me more, the factory won't make more money.[/QUOTE] It's like arguing with my father, jesus christ.

[QUOTE=wystan;49879699]Explain how paying your employees more leads to more revenue. And you ignored my point. What is to stop the person from doing hard work at 15$ to just settle for entry level work that pays the same, you get paid what the job is worth. Minimum wage should stay a state issue and works fine as is if you are financially responsible. It isn't a myth, it's literally in my economics textbook.[/QUOTE] If everyone is paid more, they can buy more. If people buy more, businesses get more money. If businesses get more money, they can hire more people. "What is to stop the person from doing hard work at 15$ to just settle for entry level work that pays the same, you get paid what the job is worth." [B]Nothing! That's the great thing about this "freedom" you're so proud of![/B] So, what happens after this one person leaves their job for an easier entry level job? Hm, let's see, open your fucking economics textbook. "As demand increases, so do prices" Hm, so now that the 15 an hour hard worker leaves to the 15 an hour easy work, no-one will want to do the 15 an hour hard work anymore. So the people offering the 15 an hour hard work realize "hey we need this hard work done, lets increase the wage. We can do this easily since the amount of people buying our products skyrocketed since the 15 minimum wage was introduced!"

[QUOTE=wystan;49879714]That doesn't mean the worker's wages are being spent back into the business. If I work at a factory and the factory now pays me more, the factory won't make more money.[/QUOTE] what is employee retention what is the cost of living vs the minimum wage

[QUOTE=wystan;49879703]I'm not offended, it just shows how you petty you all get when it comes to people who disagree with you.[/QUOTE] Nobody's getting pissed off because you disagree with them. They're getting pissed off because you seem to be perfectly okay with the fact that your logic for supporting what you support has more holes in it than a block of swiss cheese that's been subject to a shotgun blast while at the same time ignoring any evidence that refutes it.

[QUOTE=wystan;49879714]That doesn't mean the worker's wages are being spent back into the business. If I work at a factory and the factory now pays me more, the factory won't make more money.[/QUOTE] they spend them in other businesses, which (shocker) are also now paying their employees $15/hr who then go and spend it in a way that benefits the factory.

[QUOTE=wystan;49879714]That doesn't mean the worker's wages are being spent back into the business. If I work at a factory and the factory now pays me more, the factory won't make more money.[/QUOTE] With increased minimum wages across the board, you now just have more people who are capable and willing to buy from your factory. Your factory is offering a product, if more people are able to buy that product, your factory makes more money. GODDAMNIT I SHOULD BE STUDYING AGH

[QUOTE=wystan;49879714]That doesn't mean the worker's wages are being spent back into the business. If I work at a factory and the factory now pays me more, the factory won't make more money.[/QUOTE] So if the factory workers make cars, and they make more money, spending more money at local shops who then also have more money, who now go buy more cars more often NO ONES MAKING MORE MONEY THEN? Yeah bud, you understand capitalism on the smallest scale possible, on the 1-1 scale. Not a scale that actually matters.

[QUOTE=EcksDee;49879721]If everyone is paid more, they can buy more. If people buy more, businesses get more money. If businesses get more money, they can hire more people. "What is to stop the person from doing hard work at 15$ to just settle for entry level work that pays the same, you get paid what the job is worth." [B]Nothing! That's the great thing about this "freedom" you're so proud of![/B] So, what happens after this one person leaves their job for an easier entry level job? Hm, let's see, open your fucking economics textbook. "As demand increases, so do prices" Hm, so now that the 15 an hour hard worker leaves to the 15 an hour easy work, no-one will want to do the 15 an hour hard work anymore. So the people offering the 15 an hour hard work realize "hey we need this hard work done, lets increase the wage. We can do this easily since the amount of people buying our products skyrocketed since the 15 minimum wage was introduced!"[/QUOTE] This doesn't apply to all business. It all depends on the good or service provided and if it's elastic or inelastic, and having people leave these jobs to go work entry level jobs is not a good idea. [editline]6th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49879734]So if the factory workers make cars, and they make more money, spending more money at local shops who then also have more money, who now go buy more cars more often NO ONES MAKING MORE MONEY THEN? Yeah bud, you understand capitalism on the smallest scale possible, on the 1-1 scale. Not a scale that actually matters.[/QUOTE] You all are all seemingly unaware that people save money too. An increase in wages does not guarantee more money being spent.

[QUOTE=wystan;49879737]This doesn't apply to all business. It all depends on the good or service provided and if it's elastic or inelastic, and having people leave these jobs to go work entry level jobs is not a good idea.[/QUOTE] Yeah it does apply to all business. Even niche markets with few consumers will just get more consumers now that people are getting paid more and they diversify their purchases. [editline]6th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=wystan;49879737] You all are all seemingly unaware that people save money too. An increase in wages does not guarantee more money being spent.[/QUOTE] Except yeah it does, like I gave you in the link up where a 2 dollar increase increased buying power by almost 30 billion dollars annually. People will still save money yeah, but they will still spend more than they are currently in order to make their lives better.

[QUOTE=wystan;49879737] You all are all seemingly unaware that people save money too. An increase in wages does not guarantee more money being spent.[/QUOTE] this is based purely on assumption and nothing else lmao

[QUOTE=wystan;49879737]This doesn't apply to all business. It all depends on the good or service provided and if it's elastic or inelastic, and having people leave these jobs to go work entry level jobs is not a good idea. [editline]6th March 2016[/editline] You all are all seemingly unaware that people save money too. An increase in wages does not guarantee more money being spent.[/QUOTE] When the economy is better people spend more You do not get to claim you understand capitalism and ignore the basics of it

Take your pick [URL]https://mises.org/library/yes-minimum-wages-still-increase-unemployment[/URL] [URL]http://dailycaller.com/2014/03/31/study-states-with-higher-minimum-wages-had-higher-unemployment/[/URL] [URL]http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/06/11/proof-that-raising-the-minimum-wage-will-increase-unemployment/#4d7466503e5a[/URL] We can argue this until the cows come home.

So we throw pages of links at you, you ignore them full stop You throw 2 questionable links and one good link and say "nah I win this argument" God I wish I could just put blinders on myself like you do

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;49879882]So we throw pages of links at you, you ignore them full stop You throw 2 questionable links and one good link and say "nah I win this argument" God I wish I could just put blinders on myself like you do[/QUOTE] The sooner you realize you are no different than me the better.

[QUOTE=wystan;49879901]The sooner you realize you are no different than me the better.[/QUOTE] I don't let my emotions dictate my policy towards other people. I don't let my nationalism blind me. I don't take a man like trump at face value like you do We are both fallible people but you're the only one in the thread to dodge as many points as you have

[QUOTE=wystan;49879523]It would help to know their history and affiliations, if they have ever been in a position that would make them privy to the information we desire. Once they are already in the chair, well I don't know I'm not a mentalist or administer torture but if you can tell when someone is lying or not, probably not too hard to know if someone is hiding something.[/QUOTE] Thing is, every person is different. You can have the best goddamn expert on the planet on human psychology, but they are still human. They can still screw up and believe that a completely innocent person [I]might[/I] be forgetting a vital clue, and needs to spend just a little more time in the chair. Furthermore, how do you know that the information you have on "potential information sources" is reliable? How do you know that someone that has been on a position that would "make them privy to the information we desire" got to that position willingly? More intelligence work? At this point, you're better off fielding your intel agents to do some actual research, instead of searching for people to torture [I]just in case[/I] they know something.

[QUOTE=wystan;49879822]Take your pick [URL]https://mises.org/library/yes-minimum-wages-still-increase-unemployment[/URL] [URL]http://dailycaller.com/2014/03/31/study-states-with-higher-minimum-wages-had-higher-unemployment/[/URL] [URL]http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/06/11/proof-that-raising-the-minimum-wage-will-increase-unemployment/#4d7466503e5a[/URL] We can argue this until the cows come home.[/QUOTE] First paper was written in 1995, does not in any way reflect the fact that unemployment rate in NJ now is lower than it was back then, even with its still-higher minimum wage. Second wasn't written by anyone with any expertise in economics and fails to go past the simple supply and demand model which today is considered outdated. "An alternate view of the labor market has low-wage labor markets characterized as monopsonistic competition wherein buyers (employers) have significantly more market power than do sellers (workers). This monopsony could be a result of intentional collusion between employers, or naturalistic factors such as segmented markets, search costs, information costs, imperfect mobility and the personal element of labor markets. In such a case a simple supply and demand graph would not yield the quantity of labor clearing and the wage rate." Third is written by a blogger and contains no scientific sources. "Yes, I am aware of all the other arguments that people are proffering. Increased aggregate demand as a result of the marginal propensity to spend will increase employment. Walmart workers having more to spend at Walmart will increase employment. [B]But I’m afraid I really just don’t believe those arguments as I’ve pointed out many a time around here.[/B]" His only point is the EITC, which, I quote: "For tax year 2013, the maximum EITC benefit for a single person or couple filing without qualifying children is $487. The maximum EITC with one qualifying child is $3,250, with two children, it is $5,372, and with three or more qualifying children, it is $6,044. These amounts are indexed annually for inflation. On December 4, 2014, [I][URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Atlantic"]The Atlantic[/URL] reported that the EITC will reduce revenue to the federal government by about $70 billion in 2015"[/I] [editline]6th March 2016[/editline] ima go study now fo realz tho

[QUOTE=wystan;49879901]The sooner you realize you are no different than me the better.[/QUOTE] He hasnt systematically ignored every point that you have made so he actually is quite different to you Just because you have an economics textbook doesnt mean you know more about economics than everyone else in this thread, how about genuinely rebutting their points or at least reading the evidence they have given you like they have given you the courtesy of doing

All this talk about torture reminds me of a mini research paper I wrote on the topic and the Ticking Time Bomb Theory. Spoilers, it's utter bullshit

[QUOTE=wystan;49879737]You all are all seemingly unaware that people save money too. An increase in wages does not guarantee more money being spent.[/QUOTE] uh yes it does this is like a basic principle of economics people don't save 100% of their income

[QUOTE=EcksDee;49879933]First paper was written in 1995, does not in any way reflect the fact that unemployment rate in NJ now is lower than it was back then, even with its still-higher minimum wage. Second wasn't written by anyone with any expertise in economics and fails to go past the simple supply and demand model which today is considered outdated. "An alternate view of the labor market has low-wage labor markets characterized as monopsonistic competition wherein buyers (employers) have significantly more market power than do sellers (workers). This monopsony could be a result of intentional collusion between employers, or naturalistic factors such as segmented markets, search costs, information costs, imperfect mobility and the personal element of labor markets. In such a case a simple supply and demand graph would not yield the quantity of labor clearing and the wage rate." Third is written by a blogger and contains no scientific sources. "Yes, I am aware of all the other arguments that people are proffering. Increased aggregate demand as a result of the marginal propensity to spend will increase employment. Walmart workers having more to spend at Walmart will increase employment. [B]But I’m afraid I really just don’t believe those arguments as I’ve pointed out many a time around here.[/B]" His only point is the EITC, which, I quote: "For tax year 2013, the maximum EITC benefit for a single person or couple filing without qualifying children is $487. The maximum EITC with one qualifying child is $3,250, with two children, it is $5,372, and with three or more qualifying children, it is $6,044. These amounts are indexed annually for inflation. On December 4, 2014, [I][URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Atlantic"]The Atlantic[/URL] reported that the EITC will reduce revenue to the federal government by about $70 billion in 2015"[/I] [editline]6th March 2016[/editline] ima go study now fo realz tho[/QUOTE] This is a common trend that I've noticed with Wystan. The sources he posts as "proof" either don't validate what he says, or are from dodgy websites that don't have credibility. He'll then go on to ignore legitimate peer reviewed research done by accredited academic journals whenever anyone else posts it. [QUOTE=wystan;49879638]Sweet, another personal attack. How many I have done to you all? I understand you hate capitalism which leads me to believe you've likely never worked a day in your life.[/QUOTE] I love how you complain about personal attacks, and then immediately use a personal attack against someone else in the next sentence. It's like you have no self awareness.