Donald Trump flips his stance on torture; killing terrorists families - Polidicks

[QUOTE=wystan;49878638] I'm not a sadist.[/QUOTE] Well, You're a sociopath who is just fine with other sociopaths in your country torturing other humans for no reason whatsoever.

You genuinely unsettle me, wystan. You strike me as the sort of person who'd just walk over to their neighbor's house and shoot everyone in it dead because you heard on the news that someone had [i]alleged[/i] they supported terrorists. Then if you were told it was some idiot kid who hated that family and wanted to see them suffer, you'd just respond: "Oh. Well it was worth the try." Am I right? I hope I'm not right. Your opinions on when torture should be used lacks so much empathy that it makes me question what you feel about humanity in general.

[QUOTE=EcksDee;49878677]Estonia is several times poorer per capita than the US. If you got everyone to pay their fare share (like we do) then it would just scale up. Providing healthcare isn't a logarithmic line. Yeah see there's the problem, blatantly copying from [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1505002&p=49700338&viewfull=1#post49700338]Zukriuchen's post[/url]: "all the useful intelligence came from traditional non-violent questioning, and that his later waterboarding produced nothing further of value." [URL]http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/09/senate-committee-cia-torture-does-not-work[/URL] "torture does not produce reliable information largely because of the severity with which it impairs the ability to think. Extreme pain, cold, sleep deprivation and fear of torture itself all damage memory, mood and cognition. Torture does not persuade people to make a reasoned decision to cooperate, but produces panic, dissociation, unconsciousness and long-term neurological damage. It also produces an intense desire to keep talking to prevent further torture." [URL]https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22830471-200-torture-doesnt-work-says-science-why-are-we-still-doing-it/[/URL] "He left jail burning with the determination to wage transnational jihad to destroy these regimes and their backers, calling for war against all those who used these methods against Muslims." [URL]http://www.salon.com/2014/12/17/rula_jebreal_torture_defenders_are_driving_america_to_moral_suicide_partner/[/URL] You can't win against data. Human beings in general just [I]are not[/I] vending machines that pop out information when you beat them enough. There's way more to our brains than that.[/QUOTE] While the USA has more money, what we need to spend our money on differs greatly, I won't for a second defend our current state of healthcare, because honestly I haven't used it much so it's a hasn't affected me yet, I have good insurance and I'm not prone to illness or accidents, most Americans do pretty well with their insurance, but I've seen the horror stories and it should be affordable for all. Back to the torture. The links and quote provided show an issue I do have with torture, in that instance I personally wouldn't have tortured the guy, I don't enjoy the idea of it but I'm not opposed to it, if that man was being cooperative there should not have been reason to torture him, hopefully just the threat of torture should make people comply.

[QUOTE=EcksDee;49878700]Well, You're a sociopath who is just fine with other sociopaths in your country torturing other humans for no reason whatsoever.[/QUOTE] anything for the proud countrymen and state we cannot let isis scum like this [t]http://i2.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4161497.ece/ALTERNATES/s1023/Children-with-weapons.jpg[/t] harm the great american way

[QUOTE=Saturn V;49878678]i can respect that but you do realise torture is the same everywhere in the universe and it's bad[/QUOTE] I just can't agree with that. [editline]6th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;49878701]You genuinely unsettle me, wystan. You strike me as the sort of person who'd just walk over to their neighbor's house and shoot everyone in it dead because you heard on the news that someone had [I]alleged[/I] they supported terrorists. Then if you were told it was some idiot kid who hated that family and wanted to see them suffer, you'd just respond: "Oh. Well it was worth the try." Am I right? I hope I'm not right. Your opinions on when torture should be used lacks so much empathy that it makes me question what you feel about humanity in general.[/QUOTE] We shouldn't impulsively torture, we need to make sure it's even worth it. I do not enjoy wasting human life, we need to do our diligence when it comes to this. [editline]6th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=kyle877;49878697]You advocate the ruthless, ineffective interrogative torture of other human beings. You're a sadist.[/QUOTE] Sadism implies I enjoy it. [editline]6th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=EcksDee;49878700]Well, You're a sociopath who is just fine with other sociopaths in your country torturing other humans for no reason whatsoever.[/QUOTE] Well there is certainly a reason.

[quote]We shouldn't impulsively torture, we need to make sure it's even worth it.[/quote] OK but it's been posted over and over that it's not worth it in any situation, but you're still advocating it. So there's a disconnect here between what you're saying and what you think. I am also a little frightened that you didn't even defend yourself against something I wanted you to so that I could be assured you weren't completely devoid of empathy.

[QUOTE=wystan;49878716] Sadism implies I enjoy it.[/QUOTE] So you're just naturally inclined to want to torture people like some sort of madman? Good to know.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;49878728]OK but it's been posted over and over that it's not worth it in any situation, but you're still advocating it. So there's a disconnect here between what you're saying and what you think. I am also a little frightened that you didn't even defend yourself against something I wanted you to so that I could be assured you weren't completely devoid of empathy.[/QUOTE] By saying we shouldn't do these things on impulse I was trying to say I wouldn't do what you said I would. Again, we need to be absolutely sure of who we target, I do not revel in wasting human life. [editline]6th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=kyle877;49878730]So you're just naturally inclined to want to torture people like some sort of madman? Good to know.[/QUOTE] Uh no? These are people who want to kill us. I don't want to just torture for the sake of it.

[QUOTE=wystan;49878734]By saying we shouldn't do these things on impulse I was trying to say I wouldn't do what you said I would. [B]Again, we need to be absolutely sure of who we target, I do not revel in wasting human life.[/B][/QUOTE] That's all you're doing by advocating for torture.

[QUOTE=wystan;49878734] I do not revel in wasting human life.[/QUOTE] Unless you don't like them.

[QUOTE=wystan;49878734] Uh no? These are people who want to kill us. I don't want to just torture for the sake of it.[/QUOTE] Holy fuck nuggets you [B][I][U]CLEARLY FUCKING DO.[/U][/I][/B] You've been shown that torture is ineffective at extracting information and you've just gone "LOL DO IT ANYWAY" You are a textbook sociopath.

[QUOTE=wystan;49878734]Uh no? These are people who want to kill us. I don't want to just torture for the sake of it.[/QUOTE] But you're reasoning is literally torture them for the sake of it.

[QUOTE=wystan;49878716]Sadism implies I enjoy it.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=wystan;49692847]the beauty of waterboarding[/QUOTE] idk maybe I'm taking it out of context but you said this twice before I mean if you ask me...

[QUOTE=wystan;49878712] Back to the torture. The links and quote provided show an issue I do have with torture, in that instance I personally wouldn't have tortured the guy, I don't enjoy the idea of it but I'm not opposed to it, if that man was being cooperative there should not have been reason to torture him, hopefully just the threat of torture should make people comply.[/QUOTE] The Hanns Scharff wiki page explains why this isn't a good mentality to have. Only a small part of his interrogation was "if you dont cooperate then you will be given to the Gestapo." Most of his tactics came from uncertainty rather than fear. He asked questions that he already knew the answers to, he became their only beacon of hope -[B]not from torture[/B], but [B]to good treatment[/B], fresh air, walks in the park etc. " According to the BBC’s history site, one Second World War German interrogator managed to draw crucial military secrets from more than 90 percent of Allied fliers he questioned." So what you're saying is that the 10% who don't release crucial secrets should be tortured? "Another of Scharff’s tactics was to glean as much as he could from a prisoner’s personal belongings and then use the innocuous fragments of information to create the impression that the Nazis had detailed dossiers on each and every Allied flier. His prisoners often believed that anything they disclosed was probably already well known to the Germans."

[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;49878746]That's all you're doing by advocating for torture.[/QUOTE] There is a difference between defending it and enjoying it.

OK, but if you're arguing about being efficient: the torture actually gets in the way of protecting other people [i]and[/i] can lead to 'wasting human life' vis-a-vis bad intelligence. So it's not effective and it can kill people. Bad intelligence doesn't just 'magically' stop being bad - and it doesn't magically get to avoid being mistaken for good intelligence. Surely we can get it right the majority of the time and throw out the bad intel but in the times that it's wrong it's far from harmless. What I'm getting at is: Are you sure you just don't want them to be tortured for the hell of it? All of your points of data for 'this could be potentially useful, don't take it off the table' have been thoroughly debunked - but you're still claiming it's potentially useful and to not take it off the table. If you're not torturing for information, because doing so would violate your preconditions of not wasting human life and getting information to protect other people, I do have to wonder what you [i]are[/i] advocating their torture for.

[QUOTE=wystan;49878761]There is a difference between defending it and enjoying it.[/QUOTE] You're saying "torture them anyway, because they deserve it" even after you've been shown (multiple times might I add) that it's ineffective and inhumane. It doesn't matter if you don't 'enjoy it', you're still mindlessly calling for it.

[QUOTE=EcksDee;49878760]The Hanns Scharff wiki page explains why this isn't a good mentality to have. Only a small part of his interrogation was "if you dont cooperate then you will be given to the Gestapo." Most of his tactics came from uncertainty rather than fear. He asked questions that he already knew the answers to, he became their only beacon of hope -[B]not from torture[/B], but [B]to good treatment[/B], fresh air, walks in the park etc. " According to the BBC’s history site, one Second World War German interrogator managed to draw crucial military secrets from more than 90 percent of Allied fliers he questioned." So what you're saying is that the 10% who don't release crucial secrets should be tortured?[/QUOTE] Well there are some people not worth torturing (low level people and the like), also I think there a lot of variables here like those trained not to break under torture or those with just the fortitude to not give in and the conflict that is taking place. I'm willing to bet there was some level of mutual respect and trust between the belligerents in WWII, I have a hard time imagining modern day terrorists holding the same.

[QUOTE=wystan;49878761]There is a difference between defending it and enjoying it.[/QUOTE] You enjoy defending it for some reason, I don't understand that.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;49878774]OK, but if you're arguing about being efficient: the torture actually gets in the way of protecting other people [i]and[/i] can lead to 'wasting human life' vis-a-vis bad intelligence. So it's not effective and it can kill people. Bad intelligence doesn't just 'magically' stop being bad - and it doesn't magically get to avoid being mistaken for good intelligence. Surely we can get it right the majority of the time and throw out the bad intel but in the times that it's wrong it's far from harmless. What I'm getting at is: Are you sure you just don't want them to be tortured for the hell of it? All of your points of data for 'this could be potentially useful, don't take it off the table' have been thoroughly debunked - but you're still claiming it's potentially useful and to not take it off the table. If you're not torturing for information, because doing so would violate your preconditions of not wasting human life and getting information to protect other people, I do have to wonder what you [i]are[/i] advocating their torture for.[/QUOTE] I'm very sure I'm not advocating torture for the hell of it. I'd like to clarify on "wasting human life", that means death to me, and torture done correctly shouldn't kill anyone. [editline]6th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=purvisdavid1;49878778]You enjoy defending it for some reason, I don't understand that.[/QUOTE] I enjoy the conversation with you all.

So torture isn't responsible for the loss of human life when it provides bad intelligence (which is the majority of the time) which kills an innocent person?

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;49878798]So torture isn't responsible for the loss of human life when it provides bad intelligence which kills an innocent person?[/QUOTE] What was that quote earlier, about American's dying from lack of healthcare, freedom, etc?

[QUOTE=wystan;49878789]I'm very sure I'm not advocating torture for the hell of it. I'd like to clarify on "wasting human life", that means death to me, and torture done correctly shouldn't kill anyone.[/QUOTE] I'm sure you can survive having your stomach burst after someone filled it with water and punched you in the gut.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;49878798]So torture isn't responsible for the loss of human life when it provides bad intelligence (which is the majority of the time) which kills an innocent person?[/QUOTE] I don't understand this scenario. Are you talking about a specific situation where we receive bad intel and act on it that results in us killing someone else, someone presumably innocent?

You can't understand it because you can't conceive of how bad intel can lead to a bad op? Or you can't understand it because intel can't be bad?

[QUOTE=wystan;49878777]Well there are some people not worth torturing (low level people and the like), also I think there a lot of variables here like those trained not to break under torture or those with just the fortitude to not give in and the conflict that is taking place. I'm willing to bet there was some level of mutual respect and trust between the belligerents in WWII, I have a hard time imagining modern day terrorists holding the same.[/QUOTE] Mutual trust? The US Anti-Nazi propaganda machine was way WAY more active and prolific than what we currently have against ISIS/terrorists. It has nothing to do with mutual trust. It has to do with the fact that humans generally are the same everywhere. You see terrorists as people hell bent on destroying you. "terrorists" see you as spending the last 20 years actively destroying them and their families, and advocating for torture. That was exactly the point of linking you to Hanns Scharff. People who are able to 'resist' his techniques (like Gabreski) wouldn't break under torture anyway.

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;49878811]You can't understand it because you can't conceive of how bad intel can make a bad op? Or you can't understand it because intel can't be bad?[/QUOTE] No I didn't understand what you were trying to say.

I'm asking if you're turning a blind eye to: [quote]So torture isn't responsible for the loss of human life when it provides bad intelligence (which is the majority of the time) which kills an innocent person?[/quote]

[QUOTE=Firgof Umbra;49878822]I'm asking:[/QUOTE] He doesn't understand because he think's he's right and is pretty obviously refusing to accept facts.

[QUOTE=EcksDee;49878812]Mutual trust? The US Anti-Nazi propaganda machine was way WAY more active and prolific than what we currently have against ISIS/terrorists. It has nothing to do with mutual trust. It has to do with the fact that humans generally are the same everywhere. You see terrorists as people hell bent on destroying you. "terrorists" see you as spending the last 20 years actively destroying them and their families, and advocating for torture. That was exactly the point of linking you to Hanns Scharff. People who are able to 'resist' his techniques (like Gabreski) wouldn't break under torture anyway.[/QUOTE] And I would still argue the belligerents had more in common and were more prone to compromise/yielding than the conflict taking place now. I think the "era" that the torture is taking place is a big factor and shouldn't be ignored.