Special nail polish may help detect date-rape drugs - Polidicks

[QUOTE=zizzleplix;45845559]That's what I don't get. If they say "Educate men about date rape" then their intentions are clearer and more specific and it sound less inflammatory and general then "teach men not to rape". My only guess is either it's just easier to type "teach men not to rape", it wouldn't have the same bite/edge to it and therefore not get as much of a response (which is a reason some online twitter activists gave when they started the hashtag trend #Fuckallmen [I'm not sure if the hashtag was exactly that but it definitely was something along those lines]) or they're just simply expecting the average unaware person to know what they really mean when they say "teach men not to rape" but I can't really say for sure.[/QUOTE] Or the much simpler reason: they actually mean it.

[QUOTE=sgman91;45845747]Or the much simpler reason: they actually mean it.[/QUOTE] or the much simpler reason that the GOP hates barack obama: they're actually racist. oh wait no that's actually a retarded thing to say.

[QUOTE=joes33431;45845760]or the much simpler reason that the GOP hates barack obama: they're actually racist. oh wait no that's a retarded thing to say.[/QUOTE] If they said, "I hate Obama because he's black," then I would be right with you. I'm saying that we take people at face value unless there's good reason not to, but in both cases you want to assume motivation beyond words. On one hand you assume bad motivation beyond what the GOP says and in the other case you assume good motivation beyond what these specific women say.

It feels like whenever this topic gets brought up we never make any sort of progress in either side understanding each other. To " teach men not to rape " it's as simple as " you can instill morals in someone but personal views and conditions can warp their morality or actions ", the world has dangers and you need to realize they'll always be present. Also for the SJW thing that was pasted a few pages back, as much as I think they're idiots it also needs to be acknowledged that they're not a legitimate thread. OoooOooOooh abolish men~ scary, I'm sure it'll happen super easily considering something like that breaks basic human rights, cause massive uproar in pretty much all men and women who don't support it, would probably cause militant resistance, and would involve killing off half the world essentially, so it doesn't really work as an arguing point. It also needs to be acknowledged that they're a vocal minority[i](I know I know I hate the reasoning too but its true in this case)[/i], I actively read twitter and tumblr, unless you go out of your way to find these idiots you won't really see them. My two cents aside I think it's awesome we now have something like this, especially considering the example they gave is a pretty common gesture/thing people do idly, so it's not like you're announcing to the whole world you're about to test a drink for drugs.

Again, barely anyone actually says "teach men not to rape". It's mostly used as a simplification of other people's arguments, which are rarely "teach men rape is bad" but instead "teach men about consent". I can find 3 people who've said "teach men not to rape". -Zerlina Maxwell, who then lists various things for people to do, such as teaching about consent, fighting misogyny, believing rape victims, teaching healthy masculinity, and resisting the bystander effect. -Some guy named Charles Clymer, who said it in a tweet, which isn't exactly the best place for lengthy arguments about co -Kurt Cobain, who's been dead for 20 years. They only mention a brief quote, too, and cut it off after he says "teach men not to rape", so it's hard to tell what he said afterwards. The rest of the results I found were people mentioning Zerlina Maxwell, some sources mentioning other peoples' arguments about teaching consent, and people using "teach men not to rape" mockingly to argue against it.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;45825773]Well you could just not test your drink. I hate how feminists misinterpret encouraging prevention and safety with victim blaming. This whole teach men not to rape thing is also pretty [URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1288565&p=41422877&viewfull=1#post41422877"]sexist[/URL].[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=PelPix123;42311430]Preventative measures are exactly what he's talking about INCREASING. You lock your doors, right? How is that any different from carrying safeguards against assault? I'm female and I'd never leave my house without a gun. End of story. Sure, it'd be ideal if people simply didn't want to assault me, but that's not going to happen, so I'm going to bust a fucking cap in their ass. I hate the "teach men not to rape" argument because it essentially boils down to sexism against women. Isn't it more or less saying that I need men to choose not to rape me and I am utterly incapable of protecting myself? It's usually "male feminists" that take this ridiculous stance, too. Allow me to explain something: the whole "teach men not to rape" thing comes mostly from radical feminism, and is based upon the idea that all behavior is socially learned. It is the general consensus in radical feminism that this is the case, but this leads to another dangerous consensus: transsexuality and homosexuality are learned. A majority of radical feminists believe these two statements to be true, and "teach men not to rape" actually relies on the assumption that all behavior--including transsexuality and homosexuality--is learned. Since the radical groups that this idea is sourced from want to totally abolish gender differences, they are actually against transsexual rights, and you are against transsexual rights byproxy because you are supporting an argument that is held up only by the assumption that all behavior is learned. Summary: saying that men should stop raping is misogynist, misandrist, homophobic, and transphobic.[/QUOTE] Here's an old post I found that does a better job addressing this thread.

[QUOTE=Impact1986;45827827]No matter how often you tell people that something is bad and illegal to do, there will be people who will still do it. Every thief knows that it is illegal to steal or rob other people. And they still do it. Same with serial killers. They know that society condemns killing other people, but they still do it. Same with rapists. So why is a totally optional way to avoid crime, be it locking your door or a daterape drug test, victim blaming? [IMG]http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/quickfix/3/5/3/162353.jpg[/IMG] Even John McClane thinks it is a bad idea to walk into the wrong neighborhood wearing the wrong stuff.[/QUOTE] The thing is, everyone already thinks rape is a bad thing, I'd even say most rapists know rape is a bad thing. The issue is that a lot of people have differing ideas of what is and isn't rape. Some people think that it isn't rape if you spend a certain amount of money on a date with a woman. Some people think it isn't rape if the person is passed out drunk. Some people think it isn't rape if the person is gay/lesbian. The list goes on. People don't do things because they are bad, people do things because they think they are in the right in doing them, this includes illegal stuff.

[QUOTE=Bazsil;45842449]stuff[/QUOTE] Why am I feeling that only [B]you[/B] would make this kind post in a thread about rape prevention?

[QUOTE=sgman91;45842194]If people didn't mean "teach men not to rape," then they shouldn't say "teach men not to rape." Why all the defending of these people as if you know what they [I]really[/I] mean. Maybe they are just dumb people who think that men are actually inherently rapists.[/QUOTE] This reminds me of #banbossy, which plastered the phrase banbossy all over their website but it somehow wasn't about banning the word bossy. [editline]30th August 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Valnar;45846368]The thing is, everyone already thinks rape is a bad thing, I'd even say most rapists know rape is a bad thing. The issue is that a lot of people have differing ideas of what is and isn't rape. Some people think that it isn't rape if you spend a certain amount of money on a date with a woman. Some people think it isn't rape if the person is passed out drunk. Some people think it isn't rape if the person is gay/lesbian. The list goes on. People don't do things because they are bad, people do things because they think they are in the right in doing them, this includes illegal stuff.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.cnbc.com/id/100810791[/url] I would say that people do bad things even if they are bad if the payback is high enough. It is not a black and white issue. You offer some girl 50 dollars for sleeping with her and she will decline it, but when you offer her 2000 dollars it is suddenly okay. But every person is different. Some have higher moral standards and have a different risk/payout limit than others.

[QUOTE=Impact1986;45846717] [URL]http://www.cnbc.com/id/100810791[/URL] I would say that people do bad things even if they are bad if the payback is high enough. It is not a black and white issue. You offer some girl 50 dollars for sleeping with her and she will decline it, but when you offer her 2000 dollars it is suddenly okay. But every person is different. Some have higher moral standards and have a different risk/payout limit than others.[/QUOTE] You're link reinforces what I said. Nobody does something 'bad' because that thing is 'bad', they do it because they feel justified in some way. Nobody does anything because it is 'bad' and people generally don't ever see themselves as a 'bad' person. People might feel justified in doing something they normally see as 'bad' for money because they might really want/need that money, and then justify that the thing they are doing isn't 'that bad'. A thief might feel justfied because they feel they need the money or they think the person they are stealing from doesn't need that money. A rapist might feel justified because they don't view what they did as rape, or they might have felt entitled to having sex. The whole teach men not to rape is about tackling those justifications and getting people to realize what is rape, it isn't about telling people 'rape is bad' because everyone already knows rape is bad.

This product isnt contributing to victim blaming. It is never a woman's fault if they get raped, but they can still take precautions

[QUOTE=Valnar;45846978]You're link reinforces what I said. Nobody does something 'bad' because that thing is 'bad', they do it because they feel justified in some way. Nobody does anything because it is 'bad' and people generally don't ever see themselves as a 'bad' person. People might feel justified in doing something they normally see as 'bad' for money because they might really want/need that money, and then justify that the thing they are doing isn't 'that bad'. A thief might feel justfied because they feel they need the money or they think the person they are stealing from doesn't need that money. A rapist might feel justified because they don't view what they did as rape, or they might have felt entitled to having sex. The whole teach men not to rape is about tackling those justifications and getting people to realize what is rape, it isn't about telling people 'rape is bad' because everyone already knows rape is bad.[/QUOTE] My link reinforces what you say because I say the same. And I never said people do things just because they are bad, I am just saying that if the payout is high enough they will willingly do things that they know that are bad.

[QUOTE=Impact1986;45847271]My link reinforces what you say because I say the same. And I never said people do things just because they are bad, I am just saying that if the payout is high enough they will willingly do things that they know that are bad.[/QUOTE] I'm saying that one of the main reasons people commit rape is not because of a payout, but rather because they fundamentally don't believe what they are doing as rape. I'd say that most rapists don't view themselves as rapists. That is the whole point of the teaching people not to rape idea, not saying that rape is "something bad or illegal" but to get people to realize what rape is.

[QUOTE=Valnar;45847417]I'm saying that one of the main reasons people commit rape is not because of a payout, but rather because they fundamentally don't believe what they are doing as rape. I'd say that most rapists don't view themselves as rapists. That is the whole point of the teaching people not to rape idea, not saying that rape is "something bad or illegal" but to get people to realize what rape is.[/QUOTE] Well if they don't think what they are doing is rape, how is gonna telling them that they shouldn't rape help?

[QUOTE=Impact1986;45847647]Well if they don't think what they are doing is rape, how is gonna telling them that they shouldn't rape help?[/QUOTE] I already said this in the ends of my last two posts... Its about getting people to understand what rape (and consent) is.

[QUOTE=Valnar;45847774]I already said this in the ends of my last two posts... Its about getting people to understand what rape (and consent) is.[/QUOTE] Then they should rename it to "Teach men consent". The same problem was with the #banbossy thing. Stuff like this leads to communication problems between people who mean the same thing but say it differently which is a huge waste of time. [QUOTE]I'm saying that one of the main reasons people commit rape is not because of a payout, but rather because [B]they fundamentally don't believe what they are doing as rape[/B]. I'd say that most rapists don't view themselves as rapists. That is the whole point of the [B]teaching people not to rape idea[/B], not saying that rape is "something bad or illegal" but to get people to realize what rape is. [/QUOTE]

Why not just put it on the glass itself? Once you start drinking you might not remember to do the test.

[QUOTE=Aphtonites;45825521]I'll seriously never understand the mental gymnastics that are used to come up with logic like that. Victim blaming is awful and it's a shame that precautions like these have to be done in the first place, but doesn't that imply that women are completely helpless and can't (or shouldn't be able to) take things into their own hands?[/QUOTE] it's really not that difficult to understand to be honest. we don't look back upon slavery, or the holocaust, or anything of that nature and say "well, if only they had taken steps to protect themselves this wouldn't have happened" i'm not saying that products like these are harmful by any means, and I am sure that the people who produced them meant well - but there is a HUGE lack of symmetry in how we approach preventing sexual violence. people crack jokes at the "teach men to not rape" stuff but in reality, "don't rape" is not explicitly stated in a concrete or meaningful way. ideas of consent aren't discussed in any sort of serious way until kids get to fucking [I]college[/I] which is far too late, after most people begin sexual activity and at a point in their lives where there's little chance of changing their mind about the way the world works. by that point most of us have grown up with hugely sexualized media that does depict women largely as sexual objects, as a goal for conquest. take a look at any movie or tv show for an easy example. it's just seriously off balance - there's so many tips and tricks and products out there that are designed to protect people from rape, but there's very little being done in early stages to prevent it in the first place by the perpetrator. believe it or not most rape isn't intentional, it just comes from a terribly poor conception of what consent is and how it functions. the teach men to not rape aspect of everything is an expression of the frustration with that simple [B]fact[/B].

[QUOTE=BrickInHead;45847965]it's really not that difficult to understand to be honest. we don't look back upon slavery, or the holocaust, or anything of that nature and say "well, if only they had taken steps to protect themselves this wouldn't have happened"[/QUOTE] Comparing crime to systematic acts of genocide and oppression is a bit much. Telling somebody to lock their doors after they've been robbed is hardly victim blaming. How does encouraging people to take precautions undermine educating people about consent? The people you're using these nails and sprays against probably know what rape is and are assholes.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;45848007]Comparing crime to systematic acts of genocide and oppression is a bit much. Telling somebody to lock their doors after they've been robbed is hardly victim blaming. How does encouraging people to take precautions undermine educating people about consent? The people you're using these nails and sprays against probably know what rape is and are assholes.[/QUOTE] none of those things actually genuinely prevent the overwhelming majority of rape though most rape ain't violent in nature and the victim isn't going to respond by physically assaulting their rapist because rape is a combination of physical and emotional manipulation and lack of response - thus, sprays and nails aren't much help at all. teaching men consent and how it fucntions in the long run will produce a more empathetic and understanding society. the problem is that biological and social aspects of sex are separate in education, they need to be interwoven at a young age so as to produce a sexually enlightened generation and actually not really (re comparing rape to genocide) because rape is basically one of the largest tools used to commit genocide. so they're sorta linked pretty heavily. [editline]30th August 2014[/editline] and the concept that "teach men not to rape" is sexist certainly holds some surface water but when you look at the actual statistical evidence (that it's something like 97~ percent of rapes are perpetrated by men, against women and against other men) the claim sorta loses steam. [editline]30th August 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Last or First;45845684]I like how even in your cherry-picking post to try and prove that feminists literally say "teach men not to rape", there's only one mention of rape, and it's unrelated. None say anything close to "teach men not to rape".[/QUOTE] actually no teaching men not to rape is a pretty common philosophical component of basic feminist thought. you'll learn about it in nearly any women/gender studies course that has a focus on sexual violence [editline]30th August 2014[/editline] i actually quite like the "teach men consent" that was posted above it sounds less confrontational. "teach men to not rape" is inherently confrontational and is intentionally so as to provide a backlash when people say stuff like "well why were you wearing such a provocative dress" or "shouldn't have gotten so drunk" (which happens - a lot - take a look at nearly any title 9 scandal in the US and you'll see police and student quotes abound with shit like that).

[QUOTE=BrickInHead;45847965]it's really not that difficult to understand to be honest. we don't look back upon slavery, or the holocaust, or anything of that nature and say "well, if only they had taken steps to protect themselves this wouldn't have happened"[/QUOTE] We DO praise those who tried to protect themselves and others though. I've never heard anyone critique the underground railroad because it was reactionary and didn't try to teach those in power not to have slaves.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;45846202]Here's an old post I found that does a better job addressing this thread.[/QUOTE] also that's the biggest "slippery slope" argument i've ever fucking heard lmao. yes, some social behavior is learned, thus ALL OF IT IS LEARNED INCLUDING SEXUALITY. most feminists don't think that and to say that they do is outright bullshit. i'm not going to say all because i'm sure there's probably a few out there that exist [editline]30th August 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=sgman91;45848066]We DO praise those who tried to protect themselves and others though. I've never heard anyone critique the underground railroad because it was reactionary and didn't try to teach those in power not to have slaves.[/QUOTE] just like we'd praise an individual who managed to prevent a rape via physical defense. it's no different, beyond the fact that there's no discourse surrounding slavey saying "well the slaves should've done more to stand up for themselves"

[QUOTE=BrickInHead;45848078]just like we'd praise an individual who managed to prevent a rape via physical defense. it's no different, beyond the fact that there's no discourse surrounding slavey saying "well the slaves should've done more to stand up for themselves"[/QUOTE] This product has literally nothing to do with that line of reasoning and if someone associated it with that, then that is all on them.

[QUOTE=sgman91;45848101]This product has literally nothing to do with that line of reasoning and if someone associated it with that, then that is all on them.[/QUOTE] i certainly agree but it's part of an overall narrative to a certain extent that responsibility for prevention of rape lies primarily with potential rape victims - that is not the intended effect, just like it is not the intended effect of sweet sexy music videos parading butts around to harm the status of women - but guess what, they all contribute in their own small ways to overarching themes in our culture and society that denigrate people just like when videos of people punching each other or of celebrities using derogatory terms or whatever, none of that is their intended effect, but to deny it has an effect at all is an exercise in either willful ignorance or simple straight up lying.

[QUOTE=BrickInHead;45848150]i certainly agree but it's part of an overall narrative to a certain extent that responsibility for prevention of rape lies primarily with potential rape victims - that is not the intended effect, just like it is not the intended effect of sweet sexy music videos parading butts around to harm the status of women - but guess what, they all contribute in their own small ways to overarching themes in our culture and society that denigrate people just like when videos of people punching each other or of celebrities using derogatory terms or whatever, none of that is their intended effect, but to deny it has an effect at all is an exercise in either willful ignorance or simple straight up lying.[/QUOTE] My point with the underground railroad example is that these same people would never say that it hurt black slaves by putting blame onto them for not trying to get out of slavery. That line of logic is obviously fallacious. It simply isn't correct logic to say that because something helps an individual without addressing the issue at large that it puts responsibility on the individual for being a victim. That is a non-sequitur, it simply doesn't logically follow. I get how people might come to that conclusion, but I also understand that they're wrong. It isn't a matter of opinion. [editline]30th August 2014[/editline] Just like seatbelts don't put blame on drivers for getting hit by another car, like door locks don't put blame on the owner of a house, like wearing a bullet proof vest doesn't put blame on the cop for getting killed by gunshot, etc. They pick and choose which things are considered victim blaming and which aren't based on faulty logic.

this is the sort of thing that should be mandatory in nail polish manufacturing

[QUOTE=sgman91;45848186]My point with the underground railroad example is that these same people would never say that it hurt black slaves by putting blame onto them for not trying to get out of slavery. That line of logic is obviously fallacious. It simply isn't correct logic to say that because something helps an individual without addressing the issue at large that it puts responsibility on the individual for being a victim. That is a non-sequitur, it simply doesn't logically follow. I get how people might come to that conclusion, but I also understand that they're wrong. It isn't a matter of opinion. [editline]30th August 2014[/editline] Just like seatbelts don't put blame on drivers for getting hit by another car, like door locks don't put blame on the owner of a house, like wearing a bullet proof vest doesn't put blame on the cop for getting killed by gunshot, etc. They pick and choose which things are considered victim blaming and which aren't based on faulty logic.[/QUOTE] it all boils down to that in all of these circumstances there is symmetry with how we tackle the issues. with slavery there was a fully fledged [I]war[/I] fought over it. with vehicles, we have mandatory state training and certification to even get into the drivers side of a vehicle on public property, and there is further education about drunk driving. this is evened out by safety measures in vehicles. just as with the police and their bulletproof vests, there's massive investment into local communities that is designed to curb crime before it reaches a level where it needs to be dealt with by the police. the difference in all of these an with rape is that the efforts to prevent rape via education of consent comes far too late and too little, and is often disregarded due to overarching social norms and mores that are ingrained in us throughout childhood. [editline]30th August 2014[/editline] i understand where you're coming from completely and it's a valid point to make, but i still disagree with it

[QUOTE=BrickInHead;45848228]it all boils down to that in all of these circumstances there is symmetry with how we tackle the issues. with slavery there was a fully fledged [I]war[/I] fought over it. with vehicles, we have mandatory state training and certification to even get into the drivers side of a vehicle on public property, and there is further education about drunk driving. this is evened out by safety measures in vehicles. just as with the police and their bulletproof vests, there's massive investment into local communities that is designed to curb crime before it reaches a level where it needs to be dealt with by the police. the difference in all of these an with rape is that the efforts to prevent rape via education of consent comes far too late and too little, and is often disregarded due to overarching social norms and mores that are ingrained in us throughout childhood. [editline]30th August 2014[/editline] i understand where you're coming from completely and it's a valid point to make, but i still disagree with it[/QUOTE] That all has nothing to do with the logic of saying that a product like this puts blame on the individual victim. That's completely separate from saying that we need to do more.

[QUOTE=3Dprinter;45847827]Why not just put it on the glass itself? Once you start drinking you might not remember to do the test.[/QUOTE] A company is trying this already, actually. DrinkSavvy. They had a successful IndieGoGo campaign and a lot of positive press, but their product isn't working correctly yet. If all goes well their indicator glasses will be on the market by 2015.

[QUOTE=Valnar;45846368]The thing is, everyone already thinks rape is a bad thing, I'd even say most rapists know rape is a bad thing. The issue is that a lot of people have differing ideas of what is and isn't rape. Some people think that it isn't rape if you spend a certain amount of money on a date with a woman. Some people think it isn't rape if the person is passed out drunk. Some people think it isn't rape if the person is gay/lesbian. The list goes on. People don't do things because they are bad, people do things because they think they are in the right in doing them, this includes illegal stuff.[/QUOTE] Bad people will do bad things to others if they get something out of it (in this case it would be sex). While there are times where what you said is right, there are other times where there is no doubt they are in the wrong, like the main topic in this thread (spiking other peoples drinks with a date-rape drug).