[QUOTE=Billiam;23161817]It's general closure of the whole country, when everything being flown into your country is regulated by a neighbor you're suppose to be independent from and supplies essential to survival are being blocked it's still cause to be violent.[/QUOTE]
What about the Egyptian-Gazan border?
And who started the violent or who was the first cause of the voilence chicken-egg issue. It's a useless discussion in my opinion.
Jund, you were implying somethign completely different when you said 'They kill thousands of innocents to get at only a handful of terrorists. Disgusting.'
No one denies that thousands of Palestinians died in the entire conflict.
The article, by the way, refers to the sum of the casualties among Palestinian militia/terrorist groups and non-combatants civilians.
Hamas and Hezzbollah using peaceful tactics?
THE END IS FUCKING NIGH!!!!
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23161778]So they controlled the goods in order to minimize the Hamas' access to weapons and rockets, anything wrong with that?
And I don't see how is the non-violent occupation thing related.[/QUOTE]
[URL]http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23782058-egypt-builds-giant-wall-to-block-gazas-smuggling-tunnels.do[/URL]
Pretty dangerous stuff there
NB: In the article it says
[quote]But the [B]Israelis[/B] say that the tunnels are also used to smuggle people, weapons and components to make the rockets that are fired at southern Israeli towns.[/quote]
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23161832]I'm happy that ONLY a thousand of innocents got killed. Do you have any idea how many people usually die in wars like that, when the enemy is hiding in cities and using its own civilians as human shields?[/QUOTE]
Don't pretend that Israel didn't use human shields as well.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23161832]When rockets are fired at you from your neighbor you're supposed to be able to defend yourself.
Edit: and essential surviving supplies were never banned or restricted.[/QUOTE]
Uh, yes they are.
[url]http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=960678[/url] :smug:
[QUOTE=ExplodingGuy;23161968]Hamas and Hezzbollah using peaceful tactics?
THE END IS FUCKING NIGH!!!![/QUOTE]
If Israel doesn't stop being a gigantic dick then they will lose a lot of supporters. There's nothing more persuading than a non-violent protest.
The goods that are provided in Gaza Strip by Israel are Israeli-made and payed by the Israeli tax-payer...
[QUOTE=ohadje;23162053]The goods that are provided in Gaza Strip by Israel are Israeli-made and payed by the Israeli tax-payer...[/QUOTE]
Thats their own fault for deciding to blockade the country, there are consequences
[QUOTE=Billiam;23161894]The Gaza Strip cannot produce anything under its own power, they're too small and they have too little the resources.
When you block essentials like concrete, medical equipment, and food stuffs in the name of security you bet your ass there's gonna be a shit load of animosity.[/quote]
First, they launched rockets BEFORE being blockaded, and AFTER Israel pulled out. The blockade was in response to the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit, was was also to make sure he doesn't leave Gaza, because then he'll be as good as dead. If he's still in Gaza Israel at least knows he's within reach, not in some hell-hole in who knows where, maybe Iran where he could get lashed and stoned to death.
Second, Hamas use concrete to build tunnels through which they smuggle weapons and rockets, so there's a good reason why it's restricted. It's not completely banned however, because when the UN or humanitarian rights groups ask for it, they can get it, only "private merchants" can't get it, and guess what? The Hamas also captures it sometimes when it does get into Gaza, as they did with the recent flotilla aid.
[quote]When people are occupied against their will, they're gonna' get angry.
When they rebel that doesn't make them the bad guys.[/QUOTE]
So they rebelled and got their own country, but now they keep launching rockets, attack through tunnels, and even kidnapped a soldier, I guess to you it still doesn't make them the bad guys.
Good for them.
Sending suicide bombers on city busses and launching mortars into neighborhoods isn't a great way to build support for your cause.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23161832]I'm happy that ONLY a thousand of innocents got killed. Do you have any idea how many people usually die in wars like that, when the enemy is hiding in cities and using its own civilians as human shields?[/QUOTE]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War#Air_strikes[/url]
Hey lookie, lookie. What's this thing right here?
[quote]Air strikes
Israeli F-16i of the 107th Squadron preparing for take-off
At 11:30am on December 27, 2008, Israel launched the campaign titled Operation Cast Lead. It began with an opening wave of airstrikes in which F-16 fighter jets and AH-64 Apache attack helicopters simultaneously struck 100 preplanned targets within a span of 220 seconds. There was a 95% success rate with zero misses in the opening attack according to the Israel Air Force. Thirty minutes later, a second wave of 60 jets and helicopters struck at an additional 60 targets. The air strikes hit Hamas headquarters, government offices and 24 police stations. An Israeli Unmanned aerial vehicle airstrike on the Police headquarters of Gaza City killed 40 people, including several dozen police cadets at their graduation ceremony. Approximately 140 members of Hamas were killed, including Tawfik Jaber, head of Hamas' police force. Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told reporters that Israel would strike all targets associated with what she called the "illegitimate, terrorist government of Hamas".
At least 230 Palestinians were killed and more than 700 injured on the first day of air strikes. Civilians, including children, were among the casualties. Human rights groups critically note that the attacks began around the time children were leaving school. The Israeli attack was the deadliest one-day death toll in 60 years of conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians, which has led some Palestinians to call it the Massacre of Black Saturday. Hamas responded with a fresh barrage of rockets, which killed an Israeli civilian in the city of Netivot, and injured several others. On December 29, an Israeli soldier was killed and several wounded when Palestinian mortar fire hit a military base in Nahal Oz. Several Israeli civilians were wounded, and one was killed in a rocket attack on the city of Ashkelon. On 28 December, the city of Ashdod was hit by rocket fire. On 30 December, an Israeli woman was killed by a Palestinian rocket attack on Ashdod. The city of Beersheba was also hit, the farthest Palestinian rockets had ever reached. Beersheba was hit a second time on December 31, but no casualties were reported.[/quote]
Israel bombed the fuck out of "supposed terrorist sites" and killed a bunch of innocent civilians. I don't think they really care about not killing innocents.
Yes, there was no non-voilent occupation that lasted 40 years, so what?
[quote]Israel bombed the fuck out of "supposed terrorist sites" and killed a bunch of innocent civilians. I don't think they really care about not killing innocents.[/quote]
Oh, yeah, Israel should have sent someone to confirm it was indeed a terrorist site in person (ya know, just to make sure that their intellegence wasn't wrong) and risk its' men.
Nah, just kidding.
[QUOTE=ohadje;23161946]What about the Egyptian-Gazan border?[/QUOTE]
They were smuggling in supplies, meaning that the goods they were bringing in were still illegal by Israeli standards.
[QUOTE=ohadje;23161946]And who started the violent or who was the first cause of the voilence chicken-egg issue. It's a useless discussion in my opinion.[/QUOTE]
It's a pretty damn important issue.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23162097]
So they rebelled and got their own country, but now they keep launching rockets, attack through tunnels, and even kidnapped a soldier, I guess to you it still doesn't make them the bad guys.[/QUOTE]
Now even you know you're lying. "Their own country" my ass.
[QUOTE=ohadje;23162137]Yes, there was no non-voilent occupation that lasted 40 years, so what?[/QUOTE]
Then stop demonizing them as the bad guys, as this has always happened in history. It's a given that any occupation will sustain violence and racism, especially one that's been going on for 40+ years.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23162097]So they rebelled and got their own country, but now they keep launching rockets, attack through tunnels, and even kidnapped a soldier, I guess to you it still doesn't make them the bad guys.[/QUOTE]
While Israel got a free country, oppresses it's neighbors, kills innocents and all the while gets bottle-fed by the US. I guess to you it still doesn't make them the bad guys.
[QUOTE=Billiam;23162174]They were smuggling in supplies, meaning that the goods they were bringing in were still illegal by Israeli standards.
It's a pretty damn important issue.[/QUOTE]
1. Huh? No, it's because of the Egyptian restrictions.
2. It isn't.
[QUOTE=ohadje;23162137]
Oh, yeah, Israel should have sent someone to confirm it was indeed a terrorist site in person (ya know, just to make sure that their intellegence wasn't wrong) and risk its' men.
Nah, just kidding.[/QUOTE]
So hundreds of Palestinians lives aren't worth the risk of sending a few men over? Not even a UAV or some shit to check?
Of course.
[QUOTE=Sporkfire;23162186]Now even you know you're lying. "Their own country" my ass.[/quote]
Why do you think it's a lie? They even had their own elections and everything.
[quote]Then stop demonizing them as the bad guys, as this has always happened in history. It's a given that any occupation will sustain violence and racism, especially one that's been going on for 40+ years.[/QUOTE]
Now that I think of it, there were two occupations that lasted for 20 years that were peaceful, and another two that lasted another 20 years, does that count? I'm talking about Jordan's occupation of the West Bank from 1949 to 1967 and Egypt's occupation of Gaza in these same years, followed by Israel's occupation of these territories which wasn't violent until the first intifada in 1987.
[editline]01:44AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Jund;23162252]So hundreds of Palestinians lives aren't worth the risk of sending a few men over? Not even a UAV or some shit to check?
Of course.[/QUOTE]
Israel did use plane-cameras or something like that to see where the terrorists were, see this video:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6v3O0jV2E[/media]
[QUOTE=Jund;23162252]So hundreds of Palestinians lives aren't worth the risk of sending a few men over? Not even a UAV or some shit to check?
Of course.[/QUOTE]
Don't pretend to know what happens in the Israeli war-rooms or what were the exact activeties of the Israeli military in that incident.
[QUOTE=ohadje;23162215]1. Huh? No, it's because of the Egyptian restrictions.[/QUOTE]
I never said that I supported the Egyptian restrictions. :colbert:
[QUOTE=ohadje;23162215]2. It isn't.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it is.
I can't even tell what the hell is going on in that video BurnEmDown.
Its too blurry and some key moments are blurred out by the intentional blurring of the time stamp and other video information.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23162097]First, they launched rockets BEFORE being blockaded, and AFTER Israel pulled out. The blockade was in response to the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit, was was also to make sure he doesn't leave Gaza, because then he'll be as good as dead. If he's still in Gaza Israel at least knows he's within reach, not in some hell-hole in who knows where, maybe Iran where he could get lashed and stoned to death.[/QUOTE]
The little period of violence in between Israel lessening it's grip on Gaza and before the initiation of the blockade isn't their for no goddamn reason. That violence was caused between a failure in negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian government, people didn't all of a sudden decide to kill one another.
And no the blockade wasn't a response to the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit, it was a full year after the blockade was initiated.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23162097]Second, Hamas use concrete to build tunnels through which they smuggle weapons and rockets, so there's a good reason why it's restricted. It's not completely banned however, because when the UN or humanitarian rights groups ask for it, they can get it, only "private merchants" can't get it, and guess what? The Hamas also captures it sometimes when it does get into Gaza, as they did with the recent flotilla aid.[/QUOTE]
I think you missed the gist of what I was saying.
When you ban goods essential to people in order to flush out terrorist, they're gonna' get angry, especially when you fail in flushing out the terrorists. Seriously, how does banning toilet paper stop Hamas from killing civilians.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23162097]So they rebelled and got their own country, but now they keep launching rockets, attack through tunnels, and even kidnapped a soldier, I guess to you it still doesn't make them the bad guys.[/QUOTE]
A 40 year long occupation of two unstable regions + Failed negotiations = Violence.
[editline]07:13PM[/editline]
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23162348]Why do you think it's a lie? They even had their own elections and everything.[/QUOTE]
De facto country =/= Real country
Officially the Palestine Territories are still under Israeli Country, the fact that they couldn't reach an official agreement was the entire cause of the Second Intifada man.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23162348]Now that I think of it, there were two occupations that lasted for 20 years that were peaceful, and another two that lasted another 20 years, does that count?[/QUOTE]
No, there's quite a difference.
[QUOTE=Billiam;23162966]The little period of violence in between Israel lessening it's grip on Gaza and before the initiation of the blockade isn't their for no goddamn reason. That violence was caused between a failure in negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian government, people didn't all of a sudden decide to kill one another.[/quote]
No, they continued to fire rockets which they have done for about 6 years, and now they didn't have any good reason to do so.
[quote]And no the blockade wasn't a response to the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit, it was a full year after the blockade was initiated. [/quote]
Oh woops, yeah, the blockade started on June 2007, but Israel blocked access to Gaza since he was captured (as in, not letting anyone in and out without their permission).
[quote]I think you missed the gist of what I was saying.
When you ban goods essential to people in order to flush out terrorist, they're gonna' get angry, especially when you fail in flushing out the terrorists. Seriously, how does banning toilet paper stop Hamas from killing civilians.[/quote]
They didn't do it "to flush the terrorists out", although that was a secondary objective, they did it to restrict their access to weapons and rockets, which worked wonders. They could only use the shitty rockets that they make in their backyard, and not Iranian and Syrian-supplied rockets which can actually do some real damage.
[quote]A 40 year long occupation of two unstable regions + Failed negotiations = Violence.[/quote]
There was no violence for 40 years of occupation except for the shift in who was occupying, and that only lasted for 6 days and wasn't against the native population, but between Israel and Jordan/Egypt.
[quote]De facto country =/= Real country
Officially the Palestine Territories are still under Israeli Country, the fact that they couldn't reach an official agreement was the entire cause of the Second Intifada man.[/quote]
The second intifada was in 2000-5, it pretty much ended after they got their own country.
[quote]No, there's quite a difference.[/QUOTE]
Why not? The West Bank and the Gaza Strip were both occupied for 40 years without any violence from or to the people who were under the occupation. Seems like a non-violent occupation to me.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23163444]No, they continued to fire rockets which they have done for about 6 years, and now they didn't have any good reason to do so.[/QUOTE]
The Qassams have been going about for 9 years, the reason is still due to the Second Intifada, since there was no official end to the period of violence and closures have tightened you can't expect an end to Hamas attacks.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23163444]They didn't do it "to flush the terrorists out", although that was a secondary objective, they did it to restrict their access to weapons and rockets, which worked wonders. They could only use the shitty rockets that they make in their backyard, and not Iranian and Syrian-supplied rockets which can actually do some real damage.[/QUOTE]
Then continue restrictions on military supplies and equipment which could be used to assist in the construction of guided rockets or long range rockets.
Blockading other supplies is disgusting.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23163444]There was no violence for 40 years of occupation except for the shift in who was occupying, and that only lasted for 6 days and wasn't against the native population, but between Israel and Jordan/Egypt.[/QUOTE]
I'm talking about '67 - Present.
Between that period there's been an abysmal amount of violence.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23163444]The second intifada was in 2000-5, it pretty much ended after they got their own country.[/QUOTE]
What? Neither the Gaza Strip or the West Bank became countries neither before or after.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23163444]Why not? The West Bank and the Gaza Strip were both occupied for 40 years without any violence from or to the people who were under the occupation. Seems like a non-violent occupation to me.[/QUOTE]
Both Egypt and Jordon had assisted the Palestinian Arabs in their conflict with the Zionist.
Israel acquired the West Bank and the Gaza Strip through a war with Egypt and Jordon, and I'd imagine the Palestinians were still quite sore from the war 20 years before.
Who do the Palestinians most likely favor?
Why the fuck does EVERY Israel thread have to be a massive flame war between BurnEmDown and everyone else?
[QUOTE=1nfiniteseed;23165556]Why the fuck does EVERY Israel thread have to be a massive flame war between BurnEmDown and everyone else?[/QUOTE]
Because he's wrong. :saddowns:
Let them kill each other off so there is no one left over there.
[QUOTE=Billiam;23165219]The Qassams have been going about for 9 years, the reason is still due to the Second Intifada, since there was no official end to the period of violence and closures have tightened you can't expect an end to Hamas attacks.[/quote]
We've pulled out of the Gaza Strip, I don't see why could they be fighting about.
[quote]Then continue restrictions on military supplies and equipment which could be used to assist in the construction of guided rockets or long range rockets.
Blockading other supplies is disgusting.[/quote]
I agree with this, I was very happy when they announced that all non-military supplies will be allowed. They banned luxurious items because, well, they could. It's only illegal to ban basic survival products, which they didn't. I'm guessing they thought that it would be easier to restrict items going in, if there's a set list of items that are allowed and the rest are banned, rather than a set list of items that are banned, which means that if they need to list ALL items which might be dangerous.
So bottomline what I'm saying is: Banning luxurious non-military items was wrong, but no illegal.
[quote]I'm talking about '67 - Present.
Between that period there's been an abysmal amount of violence.[/quote]
So you're asking for a 40 year old occupation that wasn't violent, but it can only be from the last 43 years? I don't see how can this prove any point, if you're so strict on your conditions. Also, for 20 years the occupation was peaceful, so I don't know about you but to me it's enough.
[quote]What? Neither the Gaza Strip or the West Bank became countries neither before or after.[/quote]
The Gaza Strip are their own country and state, I don't see what's the problem here.
[quote]Both Egypt and Jordon had assisted the Palestinian Arabs in their conflict with the Zionist.[/QUOTE]
Well during the 20 years of the occupation, which were peaceful, the Jordan's didn't really treat the Palestinians as friends or allies or whatever you will.
[quote]Israel acquired the West Bank and the Gaza Strip through a war with Egypt and Jordon, and I'd imagine the Palestinians were still quite sore from the war 20 years before.
Who do the Palestinians most likely favor?[/quote]
Well at first the Palestinians didn't do much, they only started acting against the occupation in '87 when they've had enough of settlers coming to the West Bank and Gaza (which they had every right to be angry with, I'm talking about the Palestinians here).
[editline]03:34AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=1nfiniteseed;23165556]Why the fuck does EVERY Israel thread have to be a massive flame war between BurnEmDown and everyone else?[/QUOTE]
Don't know about the rest but I'm not flaming.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23165607]We've pulled out of the Gaza Strip, I don't see why could they be fighting about.[/QUOTE]
Well there's this big blockade thing, and the wanting their own country thing, and the animosity that still lingers from a bitter history thing.
It's also a Hamas policy to destroy Israel, which I'm not a big fan of.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23165607]I agree with this, I was very happy when they announced that all non-military supplies will be allowed. They banned luxurious items because, well, they could. It's only illegal to ban basic survival products, which they didn't. I'm guessing they thought that it would be easier to restrict items going in, if there's a set list of items that are allowed and the rest are banned, rather than a set list of items that are banned, which means that if they need to list ALL items which might be dangerous.
So bottomline what I'm saying is: Banning luxurious non-military items was wrong, but no illegal.[/QUOTE]
Livestock, medical supplies, electricity and building materials are not luxury items.
While it's good that the blockade has been lessened, luxury items are not the only item currently banned.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23165607]So you're asking for a 40 year old occupation that wasn't violent, but it can only be from the last 43 years? I don't see how can this prove any point, if you're so strict on your conditions. Also, for 20 years the occupation was peaceful, so I don't know about you but to me it's enough.[/QUOTE]
Oh, no. I'm referring to the Israeli occupation, I misread your post my mistake.
But yeah, what I'm saying is the last sentence in this post.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23165607]The Gaza Strip are their own country and state, I don't see what's the problem here.[/QUOTE]
If the Gaza Strip and West Bank were independent then we wouldn't be having this conversation. The Gaza Strip is not it's own country and state, officially, they're under control of Israel and politically Israel has a gigantic share in how Gaza is run.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23165607]Well during the 20 years of the occupation, which were peaceful, the Jordan's didn't really treat the Palestinians as friends or allies or whatever you will.[/QUOTE]
The point being there are pretty big differences between the occupation of the West Bank by the Jordanians and the occupation of the West Bank by Israel.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23161832]I'm happy that ONLY a thousand of innocents got killed. Do you have any idea how many people usually die in wars like that, when the enemy is hiding in cities and using its own civilians as human shields?[/QUOTE]
Goldstone and HRW found no evidence on the use of human shields.
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