70 YEARS ON - KMS Bismarck tried to surrender, claims son of tormented Royal Navy sailor - Polidicks

[QUOTE=Raiskauskone V2;30075777]The germans followed Geneva convention to the letter when fighting against allieds up until Churchill decided it would be hilarious to bomb Berlin after the accident involving three stray He-111's. [editline]27th May 2011[/editline] Well okay, there was this incident in the norway where an surrounded army group refused to surrender and the city they were fortified in was razed to the ground, mostly due to the miscoordination between heer and luftwaffe thought. But I guess that can't be counted given how germans told them numerous times to surrender.[/QUOTE] Two letters that single handedly prove you wrong in every single way. SS They were brutal fuckers, they strolled through towns and threw grenades through windows to kill families who just happened to be stuck in the middle of a warzone. Although the british aren't saints either, they fucking flattened entire sections of country, never mind towns, they fire bombed just about everything within their bomb sights.

I think a lot of people are overlooking the things Germany did to the British during WWII, more or less everything Britain did to them was an act of revenge. Chivalry in war is limited.

[QUOTE=Greaterbeing;30090459]you hate the greatest British man to ever live? :-/ [editline]28th May 2011[/editline] also, you have to put this into historical context im not saying that its right im just saying that i understand why they did it[/QUOTE] Greatest British guy ever? The fuck are you talking about Churchill was a tremendous cunt, the only thing he is good for are quotes, inspiring people and leading a country through war, he was an ass backwards retard drunk who wanted to fight the russians immediatley after beating the Germans, thank fuck someone else took charge pretty fast after that.

Not only where these fuckers purposely bombing civilians but they tried to make a nation starve to death through famine. You can see why soldiers weren't so hellbent on being nice to ze Germans. [editline]28th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Mastotron;30093985]Greatest British guy ever? The fuck are you talking about Churchill was a tremendous cunt, the only thing he is good for are quotes, inspiring people and leading a country through war, he was an ass backwards retard drunk who wanted to fight the russians immediatley after beating the Germans, thank fuck someone else took charge pretty fast after that.[/QUOTE] And because we didn't we ended up getting something called the Iron Curtain for a few decades and the East became ruled by the Soviets.

[QUOTE=Mastotron;30093985]...who wanted to fight the russians immediatley after beating the Germans, thank fuck someone else took charge pretty fast after that.[/QUOTE] the world might have changed for the better if we had. towards the end of WWII the ruskies were more bloodthirsty than the germans were. mass rapes, rounding up of dissidents, political prisoners etc.

[QUOTE=Vasili;30093987][B]Not only where these fuckers purposely bombing civilians but they tried to make a nation starve to death through famine[/B]. You can see why soldiers weren't so hellbent on being nice to ze Germans.[/QUOTE] Are you really trying to make it seem like the Germans were the only one putting limitations on their enemies food supplies? Allies did the same to the Germans, it's a pretty common thing to do in war. And you forget the Allies also bombed Germany to hell and back.

[QUOTE=Mastotron;30093970]Two letters that single handedly prove you wrong in every single way. SS They were brutal fuckers, they strolled through towns and threw grenades through windows to kill families who just happened to be stuck in the middle of a warzone. Although the british aren't saints either, they fucking flattened entire sections of country, never mind towns, they fire bombed just about everything within their bomb sights.[/QUOTE] So that applies to the general Warmacht soldier right? I mean the SS was basically they're elite troops so that obviously means every German soldier was like that.

[QUOTE=Craig Willmore;30094200]the world might have changed for the better if we had. towards the end of WWII the ruskies were more bloodthirsty than the germans were. mass rapes, rounding up of dissidents, political prisoners etc.[/QUOTE] No, just no, Britian was in a shit state after the war where as the Russians were still churning out tanks like they were going out of fashion. They had more troops and I can't imagine that America would have been happy carrying on the war to fight the Russians. Besides, most importantly every single member of the public in Europe just wanted the war over with, they wouldn't have allowed it to carry on especially considering the fact that the new enemy would have been a former ally. [editline]28th May 2011[/editline] And Swilly, that's a straw man and a half, read the two posts, it's fairly easy to realise that I wasn't saying every german soldier was the bloodthirsty hell spawn of cerberus himself, I was saying "Not all german soldiers were chivalrious in battle, for example the SS."

[QUOTE=Swilly;30094421]So that applies to the general Warmacht soldier right? I mean the SS was basically they're elite troops so that obviously means every German soldier was like that.[/QUOTE] The SS, or in particular the Waffen-SS, were a separate entity from the Wehrmacht. Because it was basically Hitler's personal army, they often had manpower and resources diverted away from the Wehrmacht.

[QUOTE=angelangel;30095227]The SS, or in particular the Waffen-SS, were a separate entity from the Wehrmacht. Because it was basically Hitler's personal army, they often had manpower and resources diverted away from the Wehrmacht.[/QUOTE] From what i've read, it was quite the opposite actually. The Heer got all the latest equipment as soon as it became available and the Waffen-SS got all the stuff the Heer didn't need. The Waffen-SS' elite status came from the fact that they were ideological nutjobs and could do many things that the army wouldn't/couldn't.

To everyone justifying this: two wrongs don't make a right. These were regular german soldiers who wished to surrender, there's no need to kill 2000 people simply for revenge.

I very much doubt the validity of his story. The last message bismarck sent to German naval command was that their rudder was damaged and they were going to try to fight to the end. [editline]28th May 2011[/editline] [quote]"Ship unmanoeuvrable. We fight to our last shell. Long live the Fuhrer".[/quote] Lifted from wikipedia...

[QUOTE=scout1;30096372]I very much doubt the validity of his story. The last message bismarck sent to German naval command was that their rudder was damaged and they were going to try to fight to the end. [editline]28th May 2011[/editline] Lifted from wikipedia...[/QUOTE] Yeah man, what the fuck are they gonna say to Hitler "Sorry man we're getting pounded so we just thought we'd go and play cards with the tommies and go to Britian for a while, all cool broski?" And I'm sure the ships captain spoke for all the men on board.

[QUOTE=scout1;30096372]I very much doubt the validity of his story. The last message bismarck sent to German naval command was that their rudder was damaged and they were going to try to fight to the end. [editline]28th May 2011[/editline] Lifted from wikipedia...[/QUOTE] Well obviously messages to Hitler under duress can be construed as reliable sources of information. But it's okay, all German soldiers deserved to die simply for the fact that a fraction of their leadership and a fairly small number of men helped to commit genocide. It's not like the ruling group of any other country has killed millions of people without the consent of the masses before, and besides, if it had, that would totally invalidate their entire country and military, and not just those that gave the orders and carried them out. Besides, they were the enemy, they were the bad guys, it's not like the German soldier wasn't told that we were the bad guys or anything, they knew we were right all along but they just wanted to be villains in the eyes of history. tl;dr You're wrong.

[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;30075769]IIRC, it was against a treaty for Germany to build a battleship of that size. Not saying that has to do anything with taking prisoners, but both parties were equally at fault, that is if they REALLY did try and surrender. War is never a pretty thing.[/QUOTE] Actually the displacement of the Bismarck fell within the boundaries set before it, though barely. As I suspect you know the London Naval Treaty restricted new vessels to a maximum gross tonnage of 35,000t. The final weight of the Bismarck fell at 41,000t. You'll notice that that is 6,000 tons beyond the previously stated limit, but that limit was changed to 45,000t in an escalator clause for all signatories because Japan refused to sign the treaty later on. Did you guys know that throughout the entire second world war eighteen million men served in the German armed forces? Even the Waffen-SS had certain formations (I'm mostly refering to the Germanic Divisions that spent most of their time on the frontline. The Freiwilligen Divisions on Anti-Partisan duty did pretty fucked up stuff regularly) that were no more guilty of war crimes (And they were) then a regular Wehrmacht Heer unit, or even many similar sized formations in the Allied Militaries.

[QUOTE=SwissArmyKnife;30076277]One of many reasons I hate Winston Churchill. Stubborn old bastard.[/QUOTE] I know right. Winston Churchill organised the Gallipoli landings against the Ottoman empire in WW1. Hundreds of thousands of ANZACS got slaughtered. They didn't leave for 8 months.

[QUOTE=Mastotron;30094474] Besides, most importantly every single member of the public in Europe just wanted the war over with [/quote] Besides the formerly free countries who were liberated from the Nazis only to face a new horror in the post-war USSR. [quote]they wouldn't have allowed it to carry on especially considering the fact that the new enemy would have been a former ally.[/quote] Happens all the time. At the beginning of WWII, the USSR and Germany were allies, [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact]they even split up Poland[/url]

[QUOTE=Mr.T;30075474]Isn't that part of the Geneva Convention that if someone wants to surrender the attacker should stop attacking and take the surrenderees as POW's? This is very sad, the Royal Navy should have followed the convention.[/QUOTE] It was like a uniform school rule which noone followed.

[QUOTE=Raiskauskone V2;30075777]The germans followed Geneva convention to the letter when fighting against allieds up until Churchill decided it would be hilarious to bomb Berlin after the accident involving three stray He-111's. [editline]27th May 2011[/editline] Well okay, there was this incident in the norway where an surrounded army group refused to surrender and the city they were fortified in was razed to the ground, mostly due to the miscoordination between heer and luftwaffe thought. But I guess that can't be counted given how germans told them numerous times to surrender.[/QUOTE] Haha, Nazi's following the Geneva convention, funny man. [editline]28th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Sourcream&onion;30100170]Well obviously messages to Hitler under duress can be construed as reliable sources of information. But it's okay, all German soldiers deserved to die simply for the fact that a fraction of their leadership and a fairly small number of men helped to commit genocide. It's not like the ruling group of any other country has killed millions of people without the consent of the masses before, and besides, if it had, that would totally invalidate their entire country and military, and not just those that gave the orders and carried them out. Besides, they were the enemy, they were the bad guys, it's not like the German soldier wasn't told that we were the bad guys or anything, they knew we were right all along but they just wanted to be villains in the eyes of history. tl;dr You're wrong.[/QUOTE] Fraction of their leadership? The core of Nazi fucking ideology is racial purity, everyone in Germany was taught shit like "Jews are not humans" it wasn't just a few Nazi's that supported genocide, it was a whole fucking shit ton of them, and even if they DIDN'T, they still committed the crimes and deserved the punishment that came to them. [editline]28th May 2011[/editline] The Fuhrer himself, someone you may have heard of, Adolf Hitler, made the genocide happen.

[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;30075769]IIRC, it was against a treaty for Germany to build a battleship of that size. Not saying that has to do anything with taking prisoners, but both parties were equally at fault, that is if they REALLY did try and surrender. War is never a pretty thing.[/QUOTE] The treaty totally shat on Germany. Really it's no wonder they came back and started another war.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;30103876]The treaty totally shat on Germany. Really it's no wonder they came back and started another war.[/QUOTE] That, among a lot of things, is stuff that Hitler used to become fuhrer, saying he'd bring an end to the treaty

[QUOTE=Tetracycline;30103432]Haha, Nazi's following the Geneva convention, funny man. [/QUOTE] Intentionally shooting allied medics would be one. No one followed the fucking Geneva convention to the letter.

[QUOTE=Tetracycline;30103432]Haha, Nazi's following the Geneva convention, funny man.[/QUOTE] The Wehrmacht wasn't a Nazi organisation.

[QUOTE=Tetracycline;30103432]Haha, Nazi's following the Geneva convention, funny man. [editline]28th May 2011[/editline] Fraction of their leadership? The core of Nazi fucking ideology is racial purity, everyone in Germany was taught shit like "Jews are not humans" it wasn't just a few Nazi's that supported genocide, it was a whole fucking shit ton of them, and even if they DIDN'T, they still committed the crimes and deserved the punishment that came to them. [editline]28th May 2011[/editline] The Fuhrer himself, someone you may have heard of, Adolf Hitler, made the genocide happen.[/QUOTE] History lesson for the day: The general feeling in Europe at that time was that Jews were bad, not that all Jews should be systematically murdered. Hitler and the Nazi party used that as a means to get elected when they couldn't get in power on their policies alone. The Holocaust really began when they started to lose the war anyway, I guess Hitler was determined to take all credibility from his goals and military before he lost and make a huge dent in the Jewish population doing so. Most of the German military leaders and generals were, in fact, very generous of their treatment of POWs, and specified that their forces not commit war crimes. Many German military members had no knowledge of what the Holocaust actually [b]was,[/b] if they even knew it existed. Much of the German populace was ignorant, albeit willfully in many cases (lets face it, if you thought your government was murdering a group of people who you thought was responsible for everything bad in the world would you really make a huge issue?), and yes, some of the blame for this does lie on the German people for letting it go unopposed. Not all German soldiers were Nazis - in fact, few of them were. Most people in the Wermacht were there to serve their country, not a political ideology (just like not all American soldiers serve our current president's party, but serve America and her interests.) The more you know.

[QUOTE=Sourcream&onion;30131814]History lesson for the day: The general feeling in Europe at that time was that Jews were bad, not that all Jews should be systematically murdered. Hitler and the Nazi party used that as a means to get elected when they couldn't get in power on their policies alone. The Holocaust really began when they started to lose the war anyway, I guess Hitler was determined to take all credibility from his goals and military before he lost and make a huge dent in the Jewish population doing so. Most of the German military leaders and generals were, in fact, very generous of their treatment of POWs, and specified that their forces not commit war crimes. Many German military members had no knowledge of what the Holocaust actually [b]was,[/b] if they even knew it existed. Much of the German populace was ignorant, albeit willfully in many cases (lets face it, if you thought your government was murdering a group of people who you thought was responsible for everything bad in the world would you really make a huge issue?), and yes, some of the blame for this does lie on the German people for letting it go unopposed. Not all German soldiers were Nazis - in fact, few of them were. Most people in the Wermacht were there to serve their country, not a political ideology (just like not all American soldiers serve our current president's party, but serve America and her interests.) The more you know.[/QUOTE] Pretty much this. I hate it when Germany in WW2 is brought up and instantly every German soldier is a Nazi with a taste for Jewish blood. There were great generals in the Wermacht army that were as respectable if not more so than their Allied counterparts. Take Rommel for instance. Straight off wikipedia. As one of the few generals who consistently fought the Western Allies (he was never assigned to the Eastern Front), Rommel is regarded as having been a humane and professional officer. His Afrikakorps was never accused of war crimes. Soldiers captured during his Africa campaign were reported to have been treated humanely. Furthermore, he ignored orders to kill captured commandos, Jewish soldiers and civilians in all theaters of his command. Late in the war, Rommel was linked to the conspiracy to kill Adolf Hitler. Due to his wide renown, Hitler chose to eliminate him quietly; in trade for the protection of his family, Rommel agreed to commit suicide. That's not a man with a hatred for his fellow man and a desire to commit genocide. The Wermacht, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine and most German scientists during the time served to radically advance both war tactics and technology as a whole in a very short amount of time right after a crippling depression caused by WW1. Incredible war crimes were committed but WW1 and WW2 are excellent examples of the victor writing the history books. Terrible crimes are committed by all nations around the world, to think that WW2 was an entirely black and white war is foolish. War is never that clear cut.

Not to mention that once the war reached Germany, many of the German soldiers were fighting no longer for their country, but for their homes and families because the Soviets were coming and they were mad as hell. Whether the story in the OP is true or not, I find it entirely plausible. Shit happens in war.

[QUOTE=Vasili;30091139]Unless the SS got hold of prisoners. Like the time SS officers found it lulzy to throw grenades into sheds full of British PoW's[/QUOTE] Ehem... [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y30BRLJywb0[/media] [img]http://www.webnewsjax.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/article-1369280-0B4673BA00000578-935_638x594.jpg[/img] ...I'm just going to leave this here.

"And we killed them all anyways, faschist wankers."

The winners write the history books folks.

[QUOTE=CertainDOOM;30111848]The Wehrmacht wasn't a Nazi organisation.[/QUOTE] It was more a Prussian organization than anything else. [editline]31st May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=SwissArmyKnife;30148884]Pretty much this. I hate it when Germany in WW2 is brought up and instantly every German soldier is a Nazi with a taste for Jewish blood. There were great generals in the Wermacht army that were as respectable if not more so than their Allied counterparts. Take Rommel for instance. Straight off wikipedia. As one of the few generals who consistently fought the Western Allies (he was never assigned to the Eastern Front), Rommel is regarded as having been a humane and professional officer. His Afrikakorps was never accused of war crimes. Soldiers captured during his Africa campaign were reported to have been treated humanely. Furthermore, he ignored orders to kill captured commandos, Jewish soldiers and civilians in all theaters of his command. Late in the war, Rommel was linked to the conspiracy to kill Adolf Hitler. Due to his wide renown, Hitler chose to eliminate him quietly; in trade for the protection of his family, Rommel agreed to commit suicide. That's not a man with a hatred for his fellow man and a desire to commit genocide. The Wermacht, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine and most German scientists during the time served to radically advance both war tactics and technology as a whole in a very short amount of time right after a crippling depression caused by WW1. Incredible war crimes were committed but WW1 and WW2 are excellent examples of the victor writing the history books. Terrible crimes are committed by all nations around the world, to think that WW2 was an entirely black and white war is foolish. War is never that clear cut.[/QUOTE] To follow up on the, fucking Guderian, the man who made the blitzkrieg possible. HE HATED HITLER. He didn't like the man having all the power he did, he didn't trust Hitler. As the Eastern campaign started to go to shit he went against Hitler's orders and made his men retreat to more defensible positions.